I have read Dave Estergaard's site outlining the development of the 470 mbogo and the cartridge has peaked my interest.

I was wondering how many AR members currently have one of Dave's 470s and how you like it? It seems like a very well designed & developed cart. and Dave has certainly done some serious testing as well as comparing and contrasting with other Big Bores rounds.

How about recoil, rifle weight and scope eye relief? Don't think I'd 'enjoy' the recoil with a rifle below about 12lbs...

How about hunting experience? I have no doubts at all of the the rounds capabilities but, would love to hear some results for the fun of it....

Happy New Year!

Best Regards,
Dave

I shot Dave's 470 Mbogo about six weeks ago. It's a very nice rifle and for those who will train to shoot a big bore, it is very manageable. There is no need for a bolt gun in this class of cart. to weigh 12 lbs. 10 1/2 to 11 lbs. total weigh is plenty.

Hog Killer

I have two. one on a 1917 enfield and another on a CZ550. It's a great round and a darn good shooter. 300 yrd capability. I'd build one 10-12lbs with a good muzzel brake.-Rob

I have one. Actually, I have #1. I bought Dave's original 470 Mbogo from him a few years ago. Its the Ruger M77 RSM that he took to Africa to whack a few buffalo with. Pictures and a description of it are on Dave's website.

I still haven't shot anything animate with it. But that should change in Sept. I am booked for Tanz for 2 cape buff.

Cheers,
Canuck

Hi DavidC
My opinion might seem bias so I'll just refer to the other questions.
The gun weight for this cartridge should be around 10.5 to 11 lbs.
The eye relief offered with the 1.5 to 5 Leupold is more than ample.
The recoil with a well designed stock (staight in line with the stock butt 90 degrees to the rifle barrel) and a good recoil pad (Pachmayr
F990)is very tolerable and controlable. The video with the Aimed Rapid Fire is a 10.5 lb rifle with a 500 grain bullet at 2500 fps. You can see from the video that the follow up shots are smooth and the recoil recovery rate is very quick without loosing the sight picture. This is a very important point as far as I'm concerned with a dangerous game rifle.
There is a fellow in Austalia that is building probably one of the nicest 470 Mbogo's to date. He has sent me pictures of his stock blank and all the information on the rifle and it should be beauty.
Jamison as well as Quality Cartridge are making brass for the 470 Mbogo so brass won't be a
problem. Thanks for the interest and glad you enjoyed the website.
Take good care and Happy New Year
Dave

Thanks for all the info. and recommendations.

Dave, you don't have to worry about being bias... I think you have a hell of a great round in your 470...! If the owner wouldn't mind I love to see pics of his 470 in progress.

Just curious but, what prompted you to develop this cartridge based on a .475 diameter bullet? I was thinking possibly because it is the largest diameter bullet you can use in the Rigby case w/o having to jump to Jefery or Gibbs sized brass(?) which eat magazine space and I are some what harder to come by...?

Would any of you be willing to sell me a few 470 mbogo rounds...say 6 or so? Loaded with softs & solids but, naturally no powder charge or live primer. I'd gladly pay for them as well as all shipping etc.

I currently have a .375 H&H and .416 Rigby in the works... once I get these 2 completed I figure why not go up a notch or three?

Anyone have the contact info for Jamison brass?

Best Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave
At the time there were so many different 458's out there I thought it would be a better cartridge at .475. I've bumped the case up to .510 also and it will work there as well. The .475 had a good selection of bullets and with the .475 bullets being a bit shorter than the .458's it also gave a little extra case capacity that all turns into less pressure at a given velocity. I was concerned with the shootability of the cartridge and owned a 500 A-Square at the time and just found the follow up shots with the 500 were slower by far for me. With the availability of X bullets the trajectory with a starting velocity of 2500 fps is very good as well as the retained energy. As far as penetraion with the Swift A-Frames on Buffalo it has been awesome to say the least. I'm waiting for reports from Canuck on his trip, but that's still in the future.
I can make up some dummy rounds for you if you wish just send me a pm with your address etc

Take good care,
Dave

dave, what is the 510 called?

is it just a necked up mbogo case?

sounds great how many thousandths per side of shoulder?

how does the case capacity compare to the 505 gibbs?

i think it is a great idea since the gibbs case is expensive and hard to get.

The .470 Mbogo is indeed a fine cartridge. You can see my "fun gun" so chambered at Dave's site.

I have a 25" Pac-Nor stainless 16" twist on mine and it does 2685 fps with 500 grainers and no pressure signs. One more grain of RL-15 would get me past 2700 fps, but I backed off to 2550 fps for shooting comfort and that load was really uniform and accurate: RL-15 or Varget Extreme would be tops.

It would be silly of me to do a .475 Gibbs when the .470 Mbogo does it all without breaking a sweat.

I would beg to differ with Dave on the .510 Mbogo. That is just too borderline a shoulder on the already maximally blown out Mbogo case.

The .510 Gibbs Bibi makes sense, and there is still a lot of taper left in the case of the standard .505 Gibbs simply necked up. The .505 Gibbs tapers from 0.640" at the case head (base) to 0.600" at the shoulder. Blowing the .505 Gibbs shoulder out from .600" to .605" will also replace that .005" (0.0025" per side) lost insignificantly in necking up from .505 to .510.

Hi Ron
I ran a 470 Mbogo case through my 500 A-Square die when it was still in the cylindrical stage and the shoulder to neck difference is 33 thousands. So with the blown out case it would be closer to .035 or .036 which would work. It's certainly enough. I haven't pursued it because I already have a 500 A-Square.
Happy New Year to you,
Dave

that sounds great dave...

cheaper more avaliable rigby brass and nooooooo belt go for it

or do a shorter version...300 win length and rum length.

BS
I didn't pursue it originally because I thought the shoulder was too small but with all the discussion about the 470 AR and taking the dummy round to the STC/Bubba shoot and showing the guys the round it was figured it would work.
The other rounds such as the 585 Nyati,400 Whelen and a few others work with about the same shoulder. Realistically there are enough 500 choices out there.
Take care and Happy New Year
Dave

same to you

but not enough mid sized 510 options...2.6"

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Hi Ron
I ran a 470 Mbogo case through my 500 A-Square die when it was still in the cylindrical stage and the shoulder to neck difference is 33 thousands. So with the blown out case it would be closer to .035 or .036 which would work. It's certainly enough. I haven't pursued it because I already have a 500 A-Square.

Happy New Year to you,
Dave

Dave,
So you are talking 0.017" to 0.018" step per side at the shoulder, with the Rigby case almost cylindrical, minimum taper to case body.

That is definitely not the best design for a dangerous game cartridge. I see why you left it alone. I would too. Hence the .510 Bibi.

The .510 Bibi could easily make .035" step per side, or double what you are talking about, and have lots of case body taper to boot.

Happy new year.

Would one of you who knows please confirm for me, the .510 Bibi is in fact .505 Gibbs brass opened to shoot .510 bullets?

If not, please say what it is, thank you.

Based just on my reading, with a beltless & rimless case like the .416 Rigby, we are best served if the base diameter of the case is at least .105 greater than the bullet diameter.

That seems to be a reasonable, safe margin in which a solid shoulder to headspace on can be established.

Especially in the .366 caliber and up group of cartridges since we tend to shoot these at beasts that can readily harm us.

If this is too much caution please let me know, I am just an amature.

yes rips 510 bibi is just a simple neck up...i dont even think you need to do anything but stuff the bullet in like you are reloading as normal. you have soooooo many cheap and good bullets in 510 from surplus to the tsx

BigFiveJack,
The .510 Bibi just had a name change to ".510 Ndovu."

It is indeed a .510 Gibbs.
0.640" - 0.510" = 0.130"
That meets your 0.105" criterion handily.

The .416 Rigby case fails with a .510 bullet:
0.590" - .510" = 0.080"

.470 Mbogo:
0.590" - .475" = 0.115"
Another winner.

.458 Tembo, another Champ:
0.590" - .458" = 0.132"
or even if you use a minimum spec of 0.588" for the Rigby/Lapua base that you actually measure in real life with new brass:
0.588" - .458" = 0.130"
Same as the .510 Ndovu.

Thanks for this new way of looking at things, Jack.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I have one. Actually, I have #1. I bought Dave's original 470 Mbogo from him a few years ago. Its the Ruger M77 RSM that he took to Africa to whack a few buffalo with. Pictures and a description of it are on Dave's website.

I still haven't shot anything animate with it. But that should change in Sept. I am booked for Tanz for 2 cape buff.

Cheers,
Canuck

Lucky BUGGER!!!

I was just making plans to build one myself when Dave had a moment of weakness...he was building his newest baby (which is a BEAUT!) and realized he didn't need 3 of them in his cabinet.

So it worked out for both of us...he knows where number 1 is and can come visit or play with it anytime , and rather than having to wait for a gunsmith to build my project, I got instant gratification!

Cheers,
Canuck

So if it shoots a 500gr bullet at 2500-2600 or there abouts why does everyone bad mouth the 460wby ?

The 460 WBY doesn't get bashed like it used to.

It got a bad rep for a few reasons:

1) 458 bullets weren't built to withstand the velocity of the big WBY when it first came out, so penetration was not as good as it should have been due to bullet failures (softs and lead-cored solids).

2) It was selected as a DG cartridge by a number of people that bought it because it was the biggest production cartridge available...and they didn't practice with it enough, or just couldn't handle the recoil and thus, shot it poorly. And some will argue this, but I feel the WBY rifles are poorly designed for dealing with heavy recoil which adds to the "lack of shootability" this cartridge was labeled with.

3) WBY's are either loved or hated. Lots of guys just don't like the WBY rifles (especially the garish stocks etc of old) and never will....the cartridges suffer collateral damage as a result.

There is nothing intrinsicly wrong with 500gr bullets at 2500-2650 fps....especially with todays premium bullets (FN solids, bonded softs, etc).

Cheers,
Canuck

So what rifles or actions is the 460 wby recommended to be made in.
I would like to have one just for the heck of it one of these days but probably wouldnt want it in a weatherby rifle.

Jarrod,

That'd be a good topic for a new thread. I am sure you'd get lots of different opinions.

If I wanted one, I'd build it from a CZ 550, and either re-barrel a 416 Rigby, or re-chamber a 458 Lott (and modify bolt face, etc). I am not sure which would actually be cheaper, as I'd expect the feeding would require less work from the Rigby.

You could also start with a Ruger RSM, but that would be more expensive.

Anyway there are a lot of guys on this site that know a heckuva lot more than me about the details of a project like that.

Cheers,
Canuck

If I was turning a 416 Rigby into a large cased 45, I'd go for the 450 Rigby. I have nothing against belted cases, but can't see going to a 460 Wetherby when starting with a 416 Rigby.

That said, in a nominal 10-11 pound rifle with no muzzle break, not many folks can handle the recoil of 500 gr @ 2500 fps.

And why make a 460 when you can make a 470?!
Get a CZ and rebarrel. Done. (Or was there feeding work, Dave?)

quote:

but can't see going to a 460 Wetherby when starting with a 416 Rigby

Just cuz he wants one is reason enough, no? Plus, you can get factory ammo for the 460 WBY (provided you have no use for your left arm ). 450 Rigby is strictly a handloading excercise.

500gr @ 2500 is quite a bit more comfortable to shoot than 600gr @ 2400!

Most people that have tried my unbraked 470 Mbogo (and the list is getting pretty long), haven't minded the recoil. None of them volunteered to shoot it from the bench though.

Cheers,
Canuck

Chris,

450 Rigby isn't a handloading only proposition, factory ammo is available.

and one doesn't even need to get a custom rifle made according to CZ http://www.cz-usa.com/07.01.php?msgid=52

No, not as easy to come by as 460, but that stuff isn't that common either.

Paul,

You are correct...I am just going by my experience in western Canada. Nobody sells 450 Rigby off the shelf that I am aware of, but all of the major supply outfits have 460 WBY in stock. It ain't cheap, but its pretty easy to come by.

I am sure its a different story in the US.

Cheers,
Canuck

Hi Bawana-be
The feeding is very minimal. Probably what you would want to do to a CZ 550 action to really smooth it over anyway. Polishing of the feed rails and ramp, maybe widening the ramp a little to make sure cartridges feed perfectly from both sides. Maybe 1 to 2 hours work.
Take care
Dave

Hi Paul
It sure didn't take long for the 450 Rigby to become a legendary cartridge.
Take care,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Hi Paul
It sure didn't take long for the 450 Rigby to become a legendary cartridge.
Take care,
Dave

LOL

Dave,
I called and busted CZ on that when I read their ads!!

jeffe

Hi RIP
The cartridge that I was going to do on the 470 Mbogo case was going to be a .358. I was going to shorten the case to 375 H&H length and then neck it down to .358. Name: 358 APG (African Plains Game) to compliment the 470 on a two rifle Safari.
I thought the shoulder on a 50 was too small also that's why the cartridge has sat on my bench for three years. I'm curious though, what is the minimum reliable shoulder dimension that would be reliable under all conditions. With the AR rounds a lot of information has come to light which should prove interesting with all the testing completed.
Take good care and Happy New Year
Dave

Are there any cartridge drawings with dimensions available for the 470 mbogo?

Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:

Jamison as well as Quality Cartridge are making brass for the 470 Mbogo so brass won't be a
problem. Thanks for the interest and glad you enjoyed the website.

Take good care and Happy New Year
Dave

THAT'S GREAT NEWS!!! Does Jamison have a website?!?



Dave, JFYI, I think your website is one of the best on the net! I love the article on "Comparing the Big Bores" and refer others to it often!

......and NOW THIS:

quote:

The cartridge that I was going to do on the 470 Mbogo case was going to be a .358. I was going to shorten the case to 375 H&H length and then neck it down to .358. Name: 358 APG (African Plains Game) to compliment the 470 on a two rifle Safari.

I love the .358 caliber!!!

For the record, a 358 Rigby would be insane. You'd need a really long barrel to burn all that powder. I get an easy 2900 fps with a 280g from a Jefferys case and 26" bbl. 250's around 3200.
I do think personally it would make a fine companion to the Mbogo. Maybe a 6.5-06 for a trio of flame throwers?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
For the record, a 358 Rigby would be insane. You'd need a really long barrel to burn all that powder. I get an easy 2900 fps with a 280g from a Jefferys case and 26" bbl. 250's around 3200.
I do think personally it would make a fine companion to the Mbogo. Maybe a 6.5-06 for a trio of flame throwers?

It'd be a heck of a lot more efficient than a .338-.378 Weatherby!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
Hi RIP
The cartridge that I was going to do on the 470 Mbogo case was going to be a .358. I was going to shorten the case to 375 H&H length and then neck it down to .358. Name: 358 APG (African Plains Game) to compliment the 470 on a two rifle Safari.
I thought the shoulder on a 50 was too small also that's why the cartridge has sat on my bench for three years. I'm curious though, what is the minimum reliable shoulder dimension that would be reliable under all conditions. With the AR rounds a lot of information has come to light which should prove interesting with all the testing completed.
Take good care and Happy New Year
Dave

Dave,
That will be a never ending debate. I like to see 0.030" step at the shoulder-to-neck or a total diameter difference of 0.060".

BigFiveJack has given us a nice empiric rule of 0.105" diameter difference between the base and the neck, and that takes into account the entire body-shoulder-neck wedge.

RIP, (Please have a look at your Private Messages.)

I am flattered beyond belief that you are referring to my comparing bullet diameter to base diameter on beltless, rimless cartridges like 416 Rigby or 30-06.

I am just a "WANNA-BE" and never have reloaded anything, nor have I ever made a gun part or fixed a gun, much less built one.

I do read alot of literature on the gun topic and LOVE this stuff.

Some day I'll build a copy of the WESTLEY RICHARDS DROP LOCK ACTION, (but no dolls head, maybe a Purdey type 3rd bite).

BUILD A SET OF BARRELS FOR IT IN THE FASHION THAT WE SEE ON A BLASER S2 500 NE, (SO A GUY CAN REGULATE IT AT HIS LOCAL SHOOTING RANGE).

BUT IT'LL BE MY OWN WILDCAT CARTRIDGE.

IT'LL HAVE A SYNTHETIC STOCK TOO.

It's gonna be a dangerous game hunting tool. priced at 10 - 20 % less than a DAKOTA ARMS - AFRICAN GRADE 450 Dakota calibered Rifle, for the regular guy who saves up for stuff he wants.

Thanks again for the compliment!

I'm 46 yrs old, had to look up "empiric"

I'm a neophyte like Jack as well, but I've always taken the rule of .040" difference shoulder-neck, and a .006" per inch body taper as absolute minimum. That means to me that a .510" Rigby will work on a 3.1" round....(deja vous!)

Jack,
I meant empiric in the sense of practical and real world experience based. Not that you were a quack or a charlatan, which is another connotation of "empiric."

Maybe "empirical rule" is better English?

As for Bwana-be's .510 Rigby, if he applies your rule, he will find that it is a bad idea, no matter how long the cartridge is.

Good rule.

Also let me place my order now for one of your droplock's in .500 NE ... 3" or 3-1/4" ??? Make mine 3.25" please.