Con, S&F.. let em know about it!

For those that don't know, the 416, 458, and 470 AR rounds are 2.55 cases off the RUM case, with a 3.35 oal.. that is basically the size of the 416 rem, 458 lott, and 470 capstick internally but the same length as a winmag

jeffe

Guys,
S&F and I are undertaking to bring the 458AR to Australia.
Why did we go this route? ...
1. Ruger donor actions are cheap S/H (like around $500) and there are quite a few 7mRemMag's around to disembowel .
2. 300RUM brass is reasonably common ... and there was a bucket of 200 once-fired sitting under my reloading bench that I got for like $30 ... perfect reason to build a rifle. Note that 458WinMag brass is getting harder and harder to source.
3. Magnum length performance in a standard length action. Run it hot if you like ... or back off to classic velocities and reap the benefits of longer case life and lower pressures.

Point 3 (standard length actions) makes it much easier to find apropriate actions and cuts on gunsmithing charges.

At this point the case above was made as follows:
Once fired 300Rum brass was expanded to .35cal then 416cal in two steps. I love the fact that Lee's decapping die will hold the tapered expanders from their 350RemMag and 416Taylor dies. Very handy!!

The 416RUM was delivered to S&F ... whom I believe trimmed it back to 2.55" and then ran it through the CH/4D 458AR (actually marked 450AR) die. S&F has the dies as only one set was available ... I'll probably order another late Nov to beat the 8% price rise. Case only remains to be fireformed.

Now ... we just wait for the reamer and headspace guages to arrive ... pick a barrel (stainless or C/M), pick a stock (Hogue, Boyd's, factory Ruger reinforced?) ... and deliver the donor actions and components to our 'smith (Bob deVries) for a mid-February 2008 build. Note that Bob looked at the case dimensions, posted pictures and declared all will headspace and should feed easily ... including the 500AR. I'll let S&F add any forming details.
Cheers...
Con

Dies arrived yesterday and I was able to form the first case

Our process was a little different to Jeffs but same result

We started with 300 RUM and necked it up to .350 then to 416, plenty of lube.

I then trimmed the case length back to about 2.600 to even up the neck and get rid of any ugly bits

The original 300 neck is all but gone at this point, so I lubed up the expander on the 458 AR die, and the case and ran it thru

Case formed straight away, I then trimmed it back to 2.5500 and have a finished case

The reson we use 300 RUM was that we have shit loads of it and 375 RUM was going to cost us nearly $200 Australian for 100 case, thats is robbery

We'll be forming cases all weekend I'd imagine

We are keen, but the brick wall isn't far away

I have to talk to Australain Firearms Registry to get the cal put on the list, so we can register the rifles

Reamers will be another 6-7 weeks

Profiled rifled barrel blanks about the same

Getting the barrels put in and chambers reamed out about Christmas

New stocks being finalised and strengthened after action is complete

I want this done YESTERDAY....oh well welcome to custom gun building

Man I wish I could do this myself

regards
S&F

S&F, Con, y'all need to post about this on the Aussie Forum. Maybe you can get some more 458AR shooters started down there. Have fun.

Keith

Keith,
Even funnier that the whole thing started at a "AR bubba-style" shoot we had a few weeks ago amongst members of an Australian hunting forum. S&F came away from splashing Woodleigh's finest on the 200yd gong with embarassing (to me! ) regularity from my sub-9.25lb Capstick. Thoroughly disgusted at his "pip-squeek" 416Taylor ... the seed was planted. Another shooter bought a Ruger 338WinMag on his way home from the shoot ... he's already considering the upgrade. Hopefully this time next year ... some Sambar will have been taken by our AR's.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

the whole thing started at a "AR bubba-style" shoot

Glad to hear about the "Aussie Bubbas" doing a big bore shoot. Good for S&F, for his long range shooting. We have enjoyed shooting DWJs at close range. If you can find a spot to do that. It is good practice for follow up shots, in a hurry.

Keith

Keith

Ausie...Bubba...Bubbausie

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
Hopefully this time next year ... some Sambar will have been taken by our AR's.
Cheers...
Con

Con I swear if I can't get this God damn rifle built before Christmas I'll run around throwing the AR case and 500g projectiles at the deer myself. I'm not waiting till next winter, I'll have shot something with it, even a rabbit or a crow, within a week of getting the rifle.

Now what to do with the donour action, the ruger floor plate needs a recoat and the ruger action that has gone purple ?

regards
S&F

interested in that conversion......what type of donor rifle is required? would a ruger No1 be ok? whta ballistics are we talking here. con, keep me posted..................


cc

cc, a Ruger #1 with full house loads will be very rude to your shoulder, unless you have a very good recoil pad. Then it will just be rude. A Model 77 would be my choice. 7Rem Mags are good doaners, plentifull and cheap.

Keith

Joe,
I just blued peyton's ruger a couple weeks ago... with a brand new bath, it went black as the barrel..


the floorplate can be done up with any number of coatings or paints.. the krylon fussion matte black looks perfect

CC
a #1 would work, but i think you can find a 7remmag turnbolt for less.. and hold a bunch more, otherwise, what Hogkiller said

ballistics? 2300 with 500gr hornady's is easy... 2300 takes a bit more doing..., cleans up the 458 winmag chamber just nice

cc,
Drop me a PM and we'll discuss details regarding rifle builds. Bob de Vries is booked to start work in Feb 2008 ... 3 rifles aint that much harder to build than 2!!

At the moment ... both S&F and I are planning on using donor Ruger Mk II actions, MAB barrels ($298 C/M, $440 stainless) ... factory laminate (mine) or walnut stock appropriately reinforced. If you wanted to build one then we could order another barrel from MAB and have all 3 delivered to Bob deVries. We only have one set of dies at the moment ... but I'll be ordering another set by Christmas so we could order x2 sets of dies and split freight. Dies delivered cost AUD$190 a fortnight ago. The dies are the major expense.
Cheers...
Con

For your viewing pleasure. I think this in 458ar #7. 405gr remys at 1915fps make it managable from prone.

ptaylor,
By the smile on your face ... you haven't fired yet.

If you get a chance ... can you pull the action out and show a picture of the stock reinforcements? I just picked up a Ruger laminate stock for mine and am kind of interested how they got the rear crossbolt in ... not much wood down there!! Front crossbolt ... no worries, likewise heaps of stock to bed a front barrel mounted recoil lug ... trying to see if I can ditch the rear crossbolt.

Reamer should be here in a few weeks ... not sure if S&F is going to last that long!
Cheers...
Con

Con,
I did the Xbolts...
the front one is easy.. and, IMHO, not the "critical" one.. the rear one take the load.

it's a 1/4" brass threaded rod, bedded in.

you can miss a bit and grind in for the trigger to fit, or go a hair forward na dgrind it it... ANY amount of brass it going to be harder, as you are trying to keep the rear from "accordion'ing" and splitting the wood.

HOWEVER, what you can't see is the hidden third pin down/along/axial of the wrist. i take a 3/8 drill, run in deep as I can, inject bedding compound, drop in a threaded rod, and then bed the action, and CLEAR OUT the vertical surface of the rear of the tang...

and, of course, there's a recoil lug on the barrel as well. bedded....

jeffe

Con,

I made three shots prone and called it quits. My first two shots went almost into the same hole and then the 3rd I don't even want to talk about.

Its a tight fit for that rear crossbolt. Jeffe will be the one to handle the discussion on that. He did the stock work for me, I couldn't be happier, it was like buying a really worn pair of boots that fit perfectly. I love the handling marks from the previous owner.

I'll get some pitures posted up next week of the insides.

I don't think its a good idea to ditch even one of the crossbolts. Not that the 458ar is such a booomer just that you will always think of it every time you go to shoot it. Plus I think that area is commonly the first place to begin breaking.

On my CZ 416rigby I did three internal cross bolts because I wasn't comfortable with putting in the external ones. Then I steel bedded the Sh_t out of it. That could be another way to do it. Its held up to some heavy (i.e. 416roy levels) reloads fine.

Man, I like being able to shoot off the front porch! Never done it with a 458 though, least of all prone!

I think that might be the back porch. Cool! I wish I had such handy access to "The Range." I would definitely have a bench and a standing rest out on the porch. A dual purpose picnic table would be great for starters. Elevating the chronograph should not be insurmountable. I think a step-down-to patio might be nice too. Sit on the porch, bench on the patio.

ouch, peyton.. that's going to leave a mark...

get 2 5 gallon buckets and shoot cross legged!!

Jeff & Ptaylor

Thanx guys for the insperation

Waiting for the reamers is killing me, and I've told Con I'm not waiting until February, I'll push for the earliest I can get at least one rifle done. I want to get an article in one of the Gun mags, online etc..and push it as quickly as I can,

I have now formed about 100 rounds of brass, all trimmed and ready at the correct length, just needs a few light 350 grain loads to shoot crows and rats to blow out the taper and sharpen the shoulders

I annealed shoulders and necks today and cleaned all up brass up,

Jeff we never lost one case going from 300 RUM to the 458 AR, but we step expanded the necks, 300, 375, 416, 458 with tappered expanders.

Most if not all of the 30 cal neck is trimmed off anyhow.

We'll be doing most of the stock reworking, including cross bolts, wrist pin ourselves and I'd like to have a look at your action and magazine bedding jobs, you got a few pics ?

Jeff you might want to PM those pics to us, and a few of your smithing notes or we'll have to send you some $$$ and get you to send us a couple of sets of cross bolts, they are hard to get here and I'm not sure whats going on with Brownells and International shipping orders, there seems to be a lot of paperwork at the momment

Both Con and myself aren't getting open sights so I don't know where our gunsmith will put the barrel lug (no rear site) might have to be a dovetail set up, whats your suggestion here !

I'm nearly tempted to by pass doing the cross bolts and bedding myself and go with an alluminum bedded action, hogue, accurate innovation, etc.....


regards

Joe AKA ShortandFat

Already making provision for the 500 AR...next year

jeffe and ptaylor,
Thanks for the info ... front croosbolt and wrist pin shouldn't be a problem, the placement fitting of the rear crossbolt had me wondering though. I want mine to be internal bolts however for the "street sleeper" look

Poor S&F is getting all lathered up and excited , but we'll try to get a "test mule" built early if we can. I'm exploring opening up the bolt-face and altering the magazine box of a sporterised M17 that's already sitting in my safe unloved. I was planning on converting her later anyway ... to a 10lb rock busting plinker to go with the hunting Ruger.
Cheers...
Con

ya gotta watch them rocks...they are mean and can charge unsuspectingly...shoot first ask questions later

Short and Fat...I have been waiting a long time to get a 470 AR and with a lotta help from some friends it's happening soon. I know the feeling

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
ya gotta watch them rocks...they are mean and can charge unsuspectingly...shoot first ask questions later

boomstick,
My friendly and very capable gun plumber just emailed he believes he can locate me a 500A2 reamer locally ... for the rocks that get up for another go. My CZ 416Rigby was originally purchased for just such a build. Imagine pulling a rifle apart with under 40 shots through it ... must surely be the definition of "big bore gun whore".
Cheers...
Con

con,
thanks for the offer mate, just curious about the project of yours, was looking at the 375ruger, but bigger is better.....



so it basically matches the 458 lott?????. have one in ruger No1, yep it belts. could you rechamber a No1 458win to 458ar, without any mods to the stock ect?????? curious. looking for another thumper,

Con
Jimmy's 458 AR on a lefty m70 and my 470 AR on a m77 were rifles that had never been fired outside the factory.

cc, yep run the reamer into the #1 ... i am doing more and more load dev,so we'll have that info on ammoguide

cc,
Personally I wouldn't bother on a Ruger No1 unless you wanted "to be different". Price of dies is the major negative but I suppose that's the cost of individuality!!
On a No1 I'd go "classy" ... something like a 450 3 1/4 NE . I personally view the AR series as major power upgrades for standard length actions. In that capacity they are near unique ... particularly the 470AR. I'm really looking forward to running the 458AR hard up against the 470Capstick.
Cheers...
Con

duplicate post -
ha! yeah, boomie, it is

load safe in my guns, looked fine, etc etc, standard warning on using ANY loads you get off the internet

all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 88deg F, 90%humidity

ALL pressure signs look GREAT ... I will be pushing these a little more, just to "find out"
Primers still look great...

remember, the target for the 500ar with 600gr bullets is 2150... we CLOBBER that

500 AR - 600gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel

h335
90gr 1921fps
92gr 2134fps Est 92.5 at 2175 is THE 600gr load
93gr 2216fps
95gr 2240fps
96gr 2318fps

win748
92gr 1865fps
94gr 2091fps
96gr 2149fps ..again target load

458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel

h335
77gr 2185fps
79gr 2211fps
81gr 2281fps
82gr 2302fps

win748
78gr 2026fps
80gr 2115fps
81gr 2152fps
82gr 2184fps

Perhaps the 748 isn't my powder of choice, however, all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...

that being said, the 458 AR at 2300 is CERTAINLY tops for most folks, and at 2200, its mild pressure. the loads on the h335 in the 500AR and all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (7 or LESS)

Progress report from Con and Short&Fat down under

Con has his final doner action and stock, Ruger Nutmeg Laminate and 300 Winmag he got off me, I couldn't get what I wanted for a stock and Con already had a stock, so I brought myself a brand new 338 Win mag in Hawkeye, not that much more to buy new and you only do this once I suppose

Poor hawkeye will never fire a shot, straight from the Dealer to the workshop, to be butchered, pitty you guys can't come over and buy this new 338 win mag barrel off me

Any of you guys pulled a new Hawkeye apart yet, hows the woodwork and action, I'm told the stock has been slimmed down and trigger different, will need heaps of reenforcing I bet.

Actually Jeffe I wonder if the new ruger trigger will get in the way of the rear cross bolt like in the other Model 2 rebuilds

Limbsaver kickpads ordered

Barrels will be c/m blued matt finish, we are not sure on profile yet and barrel lugs, what do you guys recommend for profile, Con I think want's a thick 22in, I want a slimmer 24in maybe 25in

A few more weeks wait on the 458 AR reamers from Mansons

All the best
S&F

Congrats on the progress.

the new rugers florplate and trigger are better.

Please post pics of the progress so others can walk in your footsteps and if you want help posting pics pm me goodonya!

great news Joe and Con!!!
something like a shilen #5

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
great news Joe and Con!!!
something like a shilen #5

jeffe,
I measured the Capstick's barrel and it seems to correspond closest to a #5. That's the barrel contour S&F wants to match.
So Ruger action: 2.5lb, Stock: 2.4lb, #5 contour barrel at 24": 4.5lb for a total bare rifle weight of 9.5lb. Sound about right?
Where could you find another 1 lb as I'm more inclined towards a 22" barrel with all the weight between the hands.
Would the bedding compound, crossbolts, wrist pin, Ruger mounts and a Leupold scope add the extra 1lb? I'm guessing it will??? If so ... perhaps S&F needs to drop down to a #4??? I hate sussing out barrel contours!
Cheers...
Con

2.5 - action
Using the pac-nor weight calc
http://pac-nor.com/cgi-bin/pnb/bweight.cgi
pacnor#5 at 24" is 3.33, 3.18 at 22"
split the diffence
3.25
.75 for limbsaver pad
thats 6.5 ....
.75 bedding, xbolts, recoil lug, sights
7.25
2. for stock
9.25 ...

if you want to scope it, that's 1.5 more,,,

10oz NET for a merc recoil tube if you like..

really should try to keep the weight in the action, rather than weighting the stock.. juat better for, but works fine..

could use a .375 diameter for xbolts and wrist pins, but that won't add much

Con, Shilen list the weight of their #5 contour at 4lbs 8oz for a 28" lenght. So 4lbs should be close with a 24" lenght.

Keith

Keith,
iirc, the weight is commonly stated as with a .308 barrel, ..

using the pac-nor calc, their #5 with .308 at 28" 4.33#, something like 2.7 oz diff, which isn't much

jeffe