Rich..

I didn't think my reply was off topic...

He mentioned two cartridges in his initial post...

I took it as he was originally contemplating the Nyati and was considering the CZ/Gibbs as another/quicker option...

Relating my experiences (I'm sure others have had different ones) is that you'll have to send the CZ 505 away for work anyhow and will wind up waiting just as long (and spending just as much $$$)as a custom job in the end...

If he was contemplating a 585 in the first place a 600 would be an easier option on the same power levels...

And I agree with you that components are just as eaisly available for the 505 as other rounds.....and with modern rifles/components it's a whole different round than it was originally designed....

Just sharing my experiences cause I felt I was in a similar quandry once

I'd also like to know how the Gibbs production numbers stack up against other big bore rounds as I've had this discussion/argumnet with a non AR friend...

Matt...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:

BTW next to the .500 Jeff its the next worst feeding cartridge in existance! One of my factory CZ's also cracked its stock within the first 20 rds!

Rob:

I usually defer to your judgement because I think you have forgotten more about guns and various calibers than I ever knew. However, I have to disagree with your comments about the .500 Jeffery. I have a CZ in that caliber. I had CZ bed it and put it in a laminated stock for the added strength and it shoots and feeds perfectly.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

The .577 has much more appeal for just that reason! The .505 Gibbs case is expensive ( because there is not much demand for it),has too much volume for the diameter and is a PIA to work with. I think all .505 Gibbs cases should be converted to .577 as that at least makes sense.

Did the good doctor (scientist) just say all 505 cases should be turned into 577's

as far as I know Ed did not need to fireform the cases but in the near future the cases will be fl formed from the dies ready to shoot. the cases were formed from cylinder 505.

It all comes down to likes, $$$ and functionality.

A 577 on the Gibbs case could be had for as little as 2K.

Whatever makes you happy not whatever makes others happy.

Basic Question #1: how many different bullets do you need? Answer, three. A proper weight soft point and solid of the same weight and bearing surface to simplify load development, and a good cast bullet for all the practice/acclimation you need. Not thirty or forty...just three.

Basic Question #2: when you go to Africa and customs asks you for ammunition which matches the head stamp and markings on your rifle, does factory 505 Gibbs have an advantage over necked-up to 50 caliber 460Wbee?
Question #2B: do gunstores stock 500A2 or 500J? Moreso than the 505 Gibbs.

Basic Question #3: can any of the other 50's match the ME of the 505 Gibbs with close weight bullets? NO!

George Gibbs made the 505 that diameter to force you to buy his bullets and ammo, just like the seventeen british express cartridges over .458 but less than .510 caliber. Economics.

The affordable answer to a Big Bore is CZ. All CZ's from 375 H&H up use the same action and weigh about the same. No reason to stray from the champion...the 505 Gibbs unless you are going bigger caliber. I'll put my 550 and 577 up against anything else for ME and accuracy anyday. I'll have all three rifles at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas the 2nd thru the 5th of February, 2008. Come on down, let's us have a big bore benchrest match.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

All .505 Gibbs cases should be fireformed into something else. The guns themselves usually make great organ donors for something more interesting. So are all 460 weatherby's!
Boomstick- If your.577 concept can hit 2400fps with a 750 gr bullet I will agree it is a good idea. Heck its a better idea than the 585 NYATI period. I'll give you that even if it won't meet the magic numbers. Please build one with your own money and video your shooting it. Post Chrono results. note: Just trying to goad you into really getting some big bore shooting experience. Try it you'll like it!
The .505Gibbs is an abortion.
Dave Bush- thanks for the comments, but I never said it can't be made to work, I said its not easy and the factory guns need work. You had to spend the money to get it to work didn't you?. Stock bedding, crossbolting, feeding costs money. For $3500 I expect a gun to feed reliably and not crack its stock. Question? will your CZ feed three empty cases in a row? Mine won't! Generally thats the reliability guage I use on my personal DGR,s. Fail that test and it doesn't go hunting.
It's like motorcycling. Everybody wants a Harley, but talks themselves into the Jap cruser is just as good. Six months later they buy a Harley and sell the jap bike.
.505 Gibbs to .500 a2! Been there and done that!-Rob

Thanks for the encouragement Rob.

Prelim tests done by Ed show 750 @ 2400 and 600 @ 2600 but I have defined success as duplicating the classic loads and others more experienced than I will be turning game inside out with those max loads.

I will have to sell and trade some stuff but that is my next project. My guide gun will have to be sacrificed to git r done.

I will bump the 577 thread for those who would like to see Ed's loads.

Rich should get the first one done vewwwy swoon as Elmer Fudd would say.

quote:

My guide gun will have to be sacrificed to git r done.

Now your talkin' boomie!! There will always be another guide gun when you can get back around to it.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Basic Question #1: how many different bullets do you need? Answer, three.

Basic Question #2: when you go to Africa and customs asks you for ammunition which matches the head stamp and markings on your rifle, does factory 505 Gibbs have an advantage over necked-up to 50 caliber 460Wbee?

Question #2B: do gunstores stock 500A2 or 500J? Moreso than the 505 Gibbs.

Basic Question #3: can any of the other 50's match the ME of the 505 Gibbs with close weight bullets? NO!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I don't know why I bother, as I get the impression IdahoSS has me on "ignore", but here are my answers to the above....

1. Your answer of three may be strictly true (provided the bullets you refer to are great performers at your intended velocity), but its not really relevant to the discussion here. Everyone here understands that the availablity of bullets affects a consumers decision. Most people seem to favor a cartridge with a range of bullets to provide choice and probably cover a broader range of applications. Also, there is some risk involved in getting a firearm for which there is only one or two suppliers of bullets...if they go out of business, your firearm just became an expensive donor action.

2. Silly question (and answer) and you know it. You can get headstamped brass for a 500 A-Square. Seems to me, its just about as easy to get as 505 Gibbs brass, and made by just about as many companies.

2b. You are technically correct again, but I doubt the difference in availability is vastly different. You certainly won't find a CZ 505 in a whole heckuva lot of gunstores in my experience. Not like the 375 Ruger anyway. (you know I just couldn't resist that one)

3. You are technically correct again, but I doubt very many 505 Gibbs owners are interested in loading it beyond 2500 fps with a 600grain bullet anyway (which is what you can quite comfortably get with the 500 A2).

Just my 2c, whether anyone is listening or not.

Cheers,
Canuck

600 OK or 585 AHR (.585x600OK) ...
No replacement for displacement, right?



Anyhow, the man asked for opinions on the gibbs, and he got them, no?

Cheer up Fellas, its all about bigbores!!
jeffe

Thanks for taking the time, Canuck.
The .395 has more cartridges chambered for it than the .505. Surely the .395 Bullet supply will soon overtake the .505 also.

I'm working on it Doc! Talked to the Grinch today....he's sitting by the pool until next week.

So this thread is looking like it needs a .525" 600 Grainer that goes 3000. New case, new bullets, new action. Can't buy it in the store and can't buy the components anywhere. Perfect!!

I can make a hundred of them! Who wants one??

Could someone please tell me the differant makers that offer properly headstamped 500 A-Square brass?

What are the odds of a major ammunition company like Hornady would tool up for this cartridge?

".525 S&H" as a package deal? Bullets and actions by ours truly, brass by Horneber or Jamison, barrels by McGowen, stocks by McMillan, add gunsmithing. Sounds ambitious and at least as sensible as a .505 Gibbs or a .395 Whatever.

oh great, in 100 years, they'll be arguing about the 525 sh vs 530 whatever-woodliegh-called-it

qual cart, jamison, hornber, a2 all make headstamped brass ,,, for all of the rounds in question that are factory .. and the 510x460 is the easist to get working, feeding, and shooting.. its a rebarrel away on a 416 rigby cz, for 1/2 the cost of a 505gibbs or 500 jeffe on the same platform .. assuming 800 for the gun, 400 for barrel and install vs 2400 for a gibbs

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Could someone please tell me the differant makers that offer properly headstamped 500 A-Square brass?

What are the odds of a major ammunition company like Hornady would tool up for this cartridge?

A-Square currently makes it. As does Quality Cartridge. I cannot confirm, but understand Jamison will make it too.

You can order the A-Square brass from Midway...here.

Or from Quality Cartridge (and cheaper too) here.

UPDATE: and it appears Horneber makes it too. Check out www.custombrassandbullets.com

I don't know if a major Mfgr would ever pick it up, given that they'd likely have to kick something back to A-Square (???). Just conjecture though....

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck, put you on ignore...au contraire man ami!

Back on topic, so what you guys are telling me is that factory ammunition in the Gibbs is not an advantage over being able to buy brass and make your own 50-whoosits? That it is easier to find and purchase 510 bullets than 505? You're also telling me that being able to trot down to Cabela's and buy a 505 Gibbs is no advantage over dropping a couple grand and waiting.....who knows how long for a custom gunsmith to buy a reamer, a barrel, a stock blank and an action, and assemble them?

No offense, but this doctor can go to Cabela's and drive home with the 505 Gibbs and factory soft points and solids already loaded by the factory. It is a factory round, by definition that means that at least one mainstream factory loads ammunition for it, and one company makes rifles for it.

All in good fun, of course...but the Gibbs is king of the factory big bores.


Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter

Basic Question #3: can any of the other 50's match the ME of the 505 Gibbs with close weight bullets? NO!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I don't know why I bother, as I get the impression IdahoSS has me on "ignore", but here are my answers to the above....range of applications.
------------------------------------------------

3. You are technically correct again, but I doubt very many 505 Gibbs owners are interested in loading it beyond 2500 fps with a 600grain bullet anyway (which is what you can quite comfortably get with the 500 A2).
----------------------------------------------
Just my 2c, whether anyone is listening or not.


Canuck[/QUOTE]-------------------------There comes a point where the realm of practicality has been surpassed by so much that it gets absurd .........How many Cropping Officers use a rifle regularly that is more powerful than a 500 A-Sq .......I don,t mean [ potentially more powerful ....How many of them would want to .......Since there is no old fashion Ivory trade there isn,t alot of use for the average 8ooo ft lb rifle ....... If I needed more the,,, 550 mag ...or 585 or 600 AHR and Overkill are as readily available ........But you need to bring your 375 or 458 with you any way to the Dark Continent in case your ammo goes astray .........If it can be done with a 458 then you don,t need 8000 ft.lbs. of smack down .... .....Now ,,, If it is just an exercise in vanity ,, why stop at the Gibbs ....The Gibbs is a great cartridge in many ways,, as is the 12.75x70,.,., but so ,,,,,,,Len Pavar told me one time he shot a bull elephant with a 500 A-Sq. in the back side as it was leaving and the bullet was found in the front of the chest .......This , with the Monolithic solids.........Perhaps with the GS Flatnose solid bullet would have exited ......Do you really need more

and cz makes a 500 jeffe, and a 550 magnum ... which, to restate, means that prefences come into play... which is great, that you can have those preferences!

Gibbs is good factory deal, but to have
some fun, it is almost as good as my
28GA FH on the left. Gibbs right.Ed

When I pushed my 585 NYATI to 2550 fps with a 750 gr bullet I got sticky bolt feel and loose primer pockets after 2 reloadings. I stuck a strain guage on it and it was running 68Kpsi. I quickly backed it down. Be very careful trying to match those numbers with a Gibbs case. I suggested 2400fps with a 750 as a excellent and safe compromise. 2400fps usually correlates with great penetration and good bullet expansion. Mo speed usually results in more violent bullet expansion( with expanding bullets of course) and less penetration. Thats why the .460 wby works best at 2400fps as well as just about everything else. Thats still really pushing the Gibbs case.-Rob

IDAHO SHARPSHOOTER has the right idea! buy the 505. i have 2.
Comparing the 505 gibbs to the 500 Jeffrey is like comparing nicole kidman
to rosie o donnel!

Seriously, with a caser capacity of 173 gr water, the 505 is closer to a .577 than another (mere) .500 if loaded with modern propellants to modern pressures.

That's a roger Indlovu!!!!!

I got Maficej's 558gr solid to 2600fps...two rounds was one more than I really wanted to shoot.
Sticky bolt, but primers looked slightly radiused still. That is the outer limit, but they shoot very well in the 2300-2400fps range.

Rich
DRSS
KNowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

You're the man Rich!!!

Seems like 145 Grains and 2500 FPS is the right balance. Heavier Duty brass would likely solve the sticky bolt problem. The new case I'm working on now is 85,000 psi nominal.

All your work on the .505" x 558 really kicks sand in the face of the little bands = low pressure club!!