I'm sure this has been done before, and obvious conversion. Anyone with experience?

Check the wildcat forum - couple of threads on the .423/375 H&H...

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
I'm sure this has been done before, and obvious conversion. Anyone with experience?

Try .424 OKH Mag. Great load, had one in years past

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
I'm sure this has been done before, and obvious conversion. Anyone with experience?

Try .424 OKH Mag. Great load, had one in years past

Isn't the .424 OKH Mag more of a .423/416 RemMag as far as case shape and capacity goes? Or perhaps a .423/375 H&H Improved?

The 404-375 has no shoulder. See link in my sig line.
The 424 OKH has a shoulder.
If you have a 416 Rem Mag donor you might like the OKH
If you have a 375HH donor you might like the 404-375.

From the threads I see, seems no one has actually obtained the reamer or built 375 necked up to 423
with no "improvement"?

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
From the threads I see, seems no one has actually obtained the reamer or built 375 necked up to 423
with no "improvement"?

D'arcy echols did it---look in wildcat cartridges-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/9191070671

Why not a Jeffery?...

M

quote:

Originally posted by metric:
Why not a Jeffery?...

M

smaller less expensive actions--

You can use a 423 neck/throat pilot.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
I'm sure this has been done before, and obvious conversion. Anyone with experience?

Try .424 OKH Mag. Great load, had one in years past

Isn't the .424 OKH Mag more of a .423/416 RemMag as far as case shape and capacity goes? Or perhaps a .423/375 H&H Improved?

Yes the case is blown out a little. Don't recall how much without going and measuring a case

In a standard 98 action I would opt for the 423/416 Rem or even a 404 chatfield Taylor (423/338 Win) The 338 case will give you plenty of velocity and works good in a std. 98..I also used the 416 Ruger case in a std. 98 and it worked just fine. the CT held and extra round however. Just some options.

The 404 Jefferys works much better in a big magnum Mauser action..I don't trust cramped quarters in a DG rifle..

I tend to think in terms of huntability.

Now the .423 (aka 404) necked down to .375 makes sense and has been done by the 375 RUM. It offers a few extra yards of distance over the 375 Ruger.

Now what is gained by the opposite, taking a smaller capacity and necking up to .423"? We already have a 404 Jeffrey that a person can load down a couple of hundred fps, should they wish. Actually, the factory specs on the Jeffrey are already loaded way down, so handloaders really need to face the question of whether or not they want to increase the 404 to use its natural capacity?

As for the 375 H&H capacity as a starting level, we already have commercial versions 1/2 calibre less (41 vs. 41 1/2 calibre) in the 416 Reminington and 416 Ruger. For huntability, I would think that supporting the new-ish 416 Ruger development would make a lot of sense. Gathering around a known configuartion makes more sense than dissipating resources among calibre that don't change the hunting equation.

The 20" Ruger Alaskan version of the 416 Ruger and the African 23" version seem like pretty natural platforms for 40 calibre hunting. For under $1000 a person could start with those and then decide if they wanted to increase the diameter .007" and invest thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. Or just get a 404 in CZ550 and handload to whatever one prefers. Life can be enjoyable even when it's simple.

I haven’t seen much discussion on this topic since the Echols thread so decided last night to do some computing today.

I figured the following data points were those required to clean up a .375 H&H Magnum chamber as well as accommodate Con’s Winchester brass neck wall thickness of 0.012” (0.024” sized up for .423 caliber; the 1st Data Point – 0.452” @ 2.416” (chamber shoulder location) and the 2nd Data Point – 0.451” @ 2.870” (case mouth at chamfer). So I played with my Visio drawing program and QuickDESIGN and came up with the following chamber drawing – it should clean up most .375 H&H Mag. chambers and will work just fine with a new barrel…

First the Chamber:


And the Cartridge:

Gun writer Cameron Hopkins developed the 425 Express which was the 300 Win Mag necked up to take .423" bullets and overall length of 3.33" producing 2400fps in a standard length action apparently with a pressure of 54,000psi.

This easily matches the 416 Rigby and heavier loads in the 404 Jeffery.

Jim,

Excellent design work there. I'd say you know a thing or two about wildcatting.
Should be trouble-free.

If CIP and SAAMI drag their heels on certifying it,
Riflecrank Internationale Permanente will gladly adopt your design for standardization.

Hey Ron, RIP Certified works just fine!

There’s a 10-page discussion of an unimproved cartridge in the 404-375 Now with pics! thread down in the Wildcat And Their Development Forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/660101779/p/1

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
There’s a 10-page discussion of an unimproved cartridge in the 404-375 Now with pics! thread down in the Wildcat And Their Development Forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/660101779/p/1

Jim,

I posted this and some explanation on the thread you referenced above:




Your chamber minimums and brass maximums as drawn are perfect to handle any mass produced ammo and rifle combination,
when this wildcat takes off.
Riflecrank Internationale Permanente certified.

Thanks Ron for the photograph, information, and RIP Certification - they're much appreciated!

It's actually not a bad looking cartridge...

Nice concept, but I like the 470 Capstick a little better

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd470capstick.jpg

quote:

Nice concept, but I like the 470 Capstick a little better

On concepts, I like to ask what a person gets for the wildcat that isn't duplicated in a factory round?

For example, .416" bullets are more common, and bullets and barrels are more consistent for .416" than for .423". In addition, a functionally-equivalent round to the 375H&H/.423 already exists in the 416 Remington. That would be deflating of enthusiam for the proposed round.

The 470 Capstick has a similar problem. The 458 Lott already exists. And bullets and barrels in .458" are much more consistent and versatile than .47(4)?"

I can't get very excited about the 375H&H as a base case. I think that it has pretty much run its course at .375, where it does a decent job.

There are two directions to go from the 375H&H:

a. Keep the length and increase capacity with rounds based on the Rigby case, .416" (factory available), .458" (factory availabe), .510" (is A2 considered 'factory'?, or just go with 500Mbogo?). A side option of "a' would be to use the RUM/404J case capacity, something between the H&H and Rigby.

b. Keep the capacity and reduce the overall length. This would lead to the Ruger case in .375, .416, .458. (The Ruger case is a bit too small for a good .510".) Again, an option between 'a' and 'b' would be to use shortened RUM cases and do the Acc Rel series. See Jeffeoso for these. But one would presumably start with a standard length donor action rather than a magnum action.

quote:

On concepts, I like to ask what a person gets for the wildcat that isn't duplicated in a factory round?

Tanz that’s the basic question asked with the development of the first wildcat, and it never changes…

The rationale behind wildcats varies by the developer and varies from enhancing case efficiency to enhancing long range capability; it can be solely a matter of economics and availability.

Longevity dictates the smart wildcatter base their parent case off a military adopted cartridge or off a case with such wide distribution that it's likelihood of non-production is almost nonexistent.

Economics and availability are the issues driving the .423/375 H&H Magnum wildcat cartridge.

Not many years ago the availability of the .404 Jeffery cartridges was in the same boat as the .416 Rigby cartridges or most of the Nitro Express cartridges – extremely rare and extremely high cost when available.

The 404 Jeffery case is for all practical purposes a standalone cartridge case, just as is the .416 Rigby case. The Jeffery case is the direct parent case for many Dakota’ proprietary cartridges but only one Dakota case can be used to produce the Jeffery cartridge. Should the Jeffery case dry up as it has in the past there is little reason to believe the Dakota cases would survive which would/will result in both rarity of availability and extremely high cost when found.

Should we not continue to shoot them in sufficient volume these low volume cartridges will likely become unavailable once again!

Inversely, the .375 H&H belted magnum case is the parent for a multitude of other factory cartridges having an equal case length. The parent case is available as unformed Basic Brass allowing the production of any of the daughter cartridges including obsolete factory and wildcat cartridges. Yes there is a potential for the full-length case to become factory unavailable but due to the breadth of the daughter cartridges the likelihood of zero manufacturing availability or falling into the same morass as happened earlier with the .404 Jeffery, the .416 Rigby, and the multitude of Nitro Express cartridges is miniscule.

Let me pose a question. In the not very distant past the .416 Remington Magnum suffered “out-of-production” scheduling. Had the hue and cry not brought it back into production, would a hand loaded .423/.375 H&H Mag wildcat have suffered less availability than a hand loaded .416 RemMag factory cartridge? The answer is no based upon the availability of alternative brass for use.

I have no experience with the .423 diameter, but the 375 opened to .429 was done more than 50 years ago in an attempt to utilize the hand gun bullets in practice ammo. Had the 416 Remington been on the scene back then, its doubtful that would have been done.

To me, the .425 Express always made sense, but it never caught on.

Essentially, it's a 300 Win. Mag necked up to .423. Same bullet diameter & bullet weight the .404J uses, but in a cartridge fitting a "standard" or non-magnum length action. IIRC, ballistics were pretty impressive, and recoil was reportedly sharp, not rolling, due to the high pressure created by the geometry of the 300 Win Mag's case, more so than the Jeffery's longer, fatter case.

ASquare built some rifles in this caliber, as I recall. In the early '90s Savage supposedly produced a few of its short-lived Safari Express rifles in .425 Exp., but I've never seen one.

I should add that I wouldn't trade my .404 Jeff rifle for a .425 Express. It just seemed like an interesting way to shoot 400gn/.423 slugs using a standard-length action.

Unfortunately the .425 Express had three things going against it:
1st) Remington and Winchester had already redesigned their M700 and M70 actions around the standard-long 3.6” magazine length action (magazine spacers were used for shorter cartridges).
2nd) Remington released the .416 Remington Magnum SAAMI certified cartridge which fit perfectly in the standard-long 3.6” magazine length action and it was adopted by both Remington and Winchester as factory chambering’s.
3rd) A-Square cartridges were not 'hot selling' items.

Capo:

Not sure I understand your first point. My understanding was that the .425Exp did indeed fit those actions:

quote:

The 425 Express fills a gap in the medium-bore cartridge lineup between the 375 Holland & Holland Magnum and the 458 Winchester Magnum. This cartridge fits standard-length bolt actions such as the Winchester Model 70, 1917 Enfield, Mauser 98 or other similar-length actions.[Cartridges of the World 10th Edition]

I agree on your second point, as the 416 Rem Mag had better marketing going for it.

However, the .425Exp wasn't an "A-Square cartridge," as I understand it, although they did make ammo for their rifles in this caliber.

Wasn't it Cameron Hopkins who created this cartridge and tried to popularize it?

I distinctly recall the issue of Guns Magazine with an article detailing how Hopkins came up with that cartridge. I liked the idea then, and still do, not that I'll ever do anything about it now. I saw a Savage chambered to the round in an Ontario gunshop many years ago, and have always regretted not buying it. Something about seeing a Savage rifle set up for safari use didn't seem right at the time.

Nick I think you misunderstood my comment.

The .425 Express was designed for use in a 3.4” length magazine and any action configured to properly function using a 3.4” magnum cartridge would also accommodate the .425 Express cartridges...

Basically once Winchester and Remington rolled their rifles off the assembly line with actions fit with 3.6” magazines the need, or requirement, for new factory 3.4” magnum cartridges fell by the wayside.

What I can say is that many wildcatters worldwide took the .375 H&H Magnum case, and later the basic brass, and then necked it up and down to generate many caliber wildcat cartridges. This same group of individuals also took these various wildcat cartridges and shortened the case to produce shorter belted magnum cartridges that would properly function within short, intermediate, and standard length magazine actions.

What I cannot say is what wildcatter actually produced the first equivalent .425/.300 Winchester Magnum cartridge. If Hopkins is the first to name it the .425 Express, I’m good to go with that as the benchmark…

Okay, thanks Capo.

When I came to Alaska in 1976 a buddy gave me a mod 70 30-06 for wedding present,, about a week after arriving it went to Jerry's for a 300 win mag rechamber job. I used it with great results on everything near and far. A moose hunter showed up with a 425 Express and we managed to get him a 67"er on a long far hunt, he offered to rebarrell my 300 to the 425.

I bought 2 boxes of A-Square brass but also easily made 100 out of 300's.

I used it for 20 years with stunning success never worried about be TOO close to bears with the 425 in my hands. My load was a 350 Barnes X at 2350fps being a pretty light rifle, it never failed to kill any animal I had to shoot.

One thing it was especially good for was moose,,I guided in a very forested area and often the shot was head on at 50 yds or so, on more than one occasion (++)the shot would clank on an antler or find the nose which has 0 effect! The moose would spin and I'd drive an X up his tail and he'd lock-up enabling the hunter a follow-up shot or shots,lots of times not even realizing I'd shot.

The 425 was sold for no reason and replaced with an Old Ugly clone from one of Phil's guide's.

All in all the 425 would be more than enough gun for anything I do but we get traditis up on occasion and good guns come and go!

Thanks WR, it's always great to hear someone's experience with a wildcat that would have made a darn good factory cartridge.

Very interesting, WR. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Nice concept, but I like the 470 Capstick a little better

On concepts, I like to ask what a person gets for the wildcat that isn't duplicated in a factory round?

For example, .416" bullets are more common, and bullets and barrels are more consistent for .416" than for .423". In addition, a functionally-equivalent round to the 375H&H/.423 already exists in the 416 Remington. That would be deflating of enthusiam for the proposed round.

The 470 Capstick has a similar problem. The 458 Lott already exists. And bullets and barrels in .458" are much more consistent and versatile than .47(4)?"

I can't get very excited about the 375H&H as a base case. I think that it has pretty much run its course at .375, where it does a decent job.

There are two directions to go from the 375H&H:

a. Keep the length and increase capacity with rounds based on the Rigby case, .416" (factory available), .458" (factory availabe), .510" (is A2 considered 'factory'?, or just go with 500Mbogo?). A side option of "a' would be to use the RUM/404J case capacity, something between the H&H and Rigby.

b. Keep the capacity and reduce the overall length. This would lead to the Ruger case in .375, .416, .458. (The Ruger case is a bit too small for a good .510".) Again, an option between 'a' and 'b' would be to use shortened RUM cases and do the Acc Rel series. See Jeffeoso for these. But one would presumably start with a standard length donor action rather than a magnum action.

The Capstick can duplicate the 470 NE at a fraction of the cost being the main advantage I see. I see three distinct big bore camps. Nominal 300, 400 and 500 grain bullet weights. This is not a cart for the majority of big bore shooters like the 375 HH or 458 Lott/Win mag crowd but the goldilocks niche who are not afraid to be diferent although the design is quite simple and components being ubiquitous on a plentiful platform. I would suggest drawing down 44 cal bullets for practice and small game to keep costs down even more.