Some history to begin with, I first heard about the 416 or 404 based on an unimproved 375 H&H case at the Colorado School of Trades in 1976. One of the head instructors loaded ammo commercially for a number of years and had made up some dummy rounds to look at but to my knowledge never had chamber a rifle for this Wildcat. 416 and especially 404 bullets and barrels were quite rare and expensive at that time. This instructor expressed that with the number of Pre-64 magnums being readily available making the conversion would be simple if one could find the components.

In 1986 my wife and I were on our way to Zim for the first time and I was once again offered another 404 wildcat by another CST instructor. This was a 404 Barnes supreme made on a LR 98 with very little done to get it to feed, In fact it really didn't feed. It was also loaded with the older Barnes .049 jacketed bullets that I had seen blow to pieces on Elk so I knew that particular 404 would not make the trip either.

The Lott has been a favorite of mine for many years, simple to load, effective and kills well when pointed correctly. For 20 years I thought if you loaded a .423 in standard 375 H&H case you'd have a round that you could use in any action properly set up for a std 375 and would have little feed work to do and give the shooter a 40 caliber with just a bit more thump than a 375 H&H. Having the benefit of less recoil drama generated by the 416 Rem, Rigby or Lott seemed appealing. In recent years 404 bullets have starting showing up like dandelions. About the same time the 404 bullets became a house hold word I developed a shoulder issue from to many years of heavy recoil, the last two Gibbs had done me in. Now what ? As I have a few more buffalo to shoot I really began to think more seriously about this cartridge. When the thread started about this wildcat I waited for somebody to put one together but interest seemed to fizzle over time.

As we planned and have begun to make a Legend Pattern for the Remington 700 we needed to acquire an action and barrel to do the pattern work. I called the Henriksen Tool Co (541-535-2309) and had Hugh make me a 404-375 neck and throating reamer to use with one of his 375 H&H reamers that we have used forever to cut this wildcat chamber. The specs we used are simple and straight forward. The barrel we chose was a Douglas C/M that came in 8 days, I didn't want to wait 5 months for a barrel. As our new 700 pattern could not be started until we got a 700 barreled action complete I contacted Dick Davis at McMillan and requested ANY Rem 700 stock they had laying around to use as test fire stock that he could ship ASAP. The stock, some sort of wild ass target model came in our door 3 days later. Brian coached Matt through another fit and chamber exercise while I worked over a set of Redding 375 H&H dies to at least allow us to make some test fire ammo.

Saturday I went to the range with 16 loads. These were composed of the following, New Rem 375 H&H Brass, Fed 215-M primers, H-4895 powder and Swift 400gr A-Frames. The starting load was 58grs and went to 73grs. OAL length was 3.600 so they would feed in a Pre-64 Long Magnum magazine box. I could not shoot at the 100 yard range as a Bench rest match was going on so I used the 50 yard range. The scope was one of the new Leupold 3X versions, which I really like. I was going to use a Ladder style test and increased the charge by 1gr in each case. The first load of 58grs skipped through the screen at 1956 fps. The heaviest load of 73grs clocked at 2388 fps and the bolt opened with ease. The belt expansion was .0008 over the virgin case diameter. I had two accuracy clusters at 64,65 and 66grs the velocity average was 2225fps for these 3 loads. The other cluster was at 68, 69 and 70grs with an average velocity of 2332fps. The load of 64, 65 and 66grs went into the same hole. So today I went back to the 50 yard range with 4 loads all filled with 66grs of H-4895 sitting under a Barnes 400gr Banded solid, a Barnes 400gr TSX, a Woodleigh 400gr FMJ and once again the Swift 400gr A-frame. Same brass, now once fired and primed with a Fed 215-M. Temp was 68 degrees.

The Barnes Banded solids shot the best with a group that measured .186 center to center. Vel was 2260fps, std dev of 20fps
The Swift was the 2nd most accurate with .518. Vel 2238fps, std dev 4 fps
I pulled and called the 3 round from the group made up with the Barnes 400gr TSX, 2 went into .301 the pulled round opened up the group to .875. Vel was 2238 fps std dev was 4 fps
The group shot with the Woodleigh 400gr FMJ was .900. Vel 2241 fps std dev of 0 fps

Frankly I'm done with loaded development with this barrel as I would hunt everything with any and all of these loads. Recoil is not bad at all. Remember I have the bent chicken wing and after the 28 rounds in 24 hours my shoulder is sore but much less so that if I had shot the same number of 416 Rem rounds.

So what the point of all this ? Does it fill in a void ? Honestly it's just another option. I do know there are many people wanting to build 40 calibers. Most say you really need to have a Winchester with a RUM magazine to get the 404 Jeffery rounds to feed well. The Taylor and Rem work great with the Taylor guys always trying to get Rem velocity at a price. The 404-375H&H will work in any Pre-64 originally made for the 300 & 375 H&H with little effort. It will work just as well with the newer Model-70 with the longer magazines made for the 7 STW, 300 Wtby, 375 H&H, 416 Rem and a replacement follower spring will allow one to house 4 down and 1 up

Go back and read the last sentence. That's 5 rounds with no drop box.

Pressure so far is low, testing in 90 degree weather will follow as it warms up here. Recoil is controllable for cripples like me. There is still the issue with brass head stamps, special reamers (call Henriksen) and dies, etc. Performance in the field will mimic the Jeffery as it was loaded pre-Hornady or Atkinson but still have plenty of thunder when called upon.

Frankly I hate generally hate wildcats. However I do like the idea behind the 7mm Mashburn and this 404 variant. I'll keep you posted as we do some more shooting.

Its time for a Gin & Tonic, cheers ?

The 404-375 HH Lives! Thank you D'arcy for such an Excelent report. Seems it has performed exactly what the goals were. 400@ 2,300, little work to feed, cheap brass, easy to find and form cases and as you say FIVE ROUNDS with NO POCKET PLATE!

Boomy & DArcy,

Congratulations to both of you; this is a wildcat cartridge that truly deserved creation 70+ years ago as a darn good heavy-medium (or light-heavy) DG cartridge. It appears to be the perfect pairing for use with the .375 H&H by those individuals who desire to enjoy the extra thump of a heavier-larger diameter cartridge without the extra step up in recoil that would be delivered by the 458 Lott or 470 Capstick.

Very nice!

Here are some photos I'm posting for D'Arcy. I'll let him comment if he wishes.

Just Gorgeous!
Should have been done 70 years ago as Capo says.
Thanks for posting.

D'Arcy, from memory from our previous conversation you had mentioned the case length of 2.8" is that what is posted there? What was your max COAL that fed well?
Thanks!

The reamer I had Hugh make can be set up to cut a chamber that is 2.800 or 2.850 length as it has a slip collar that can be adjusted to what ever you desire within reason. All of the Rem 375 brass I have used once formed has typically measured 2.823. I have loaded all these test rounds to 3.600 so they would fit hypothetically in a Pre-64 Model-70. Seated to this length you can utilize the second groove from the front on the Barnes flat Nose solid and the TSX as a perfect crimp location.

quote:

Should have been done 70 years ago...

It was, sort of...
Hoyem lists a .350/.423 based on the 350 Rigby and also a belted .40 BSA but doesn't mention the bullet diameter which I would guess to be .408" or so.
Still, the proposition of very little or no action work to get into the .400 class is very appealing and there are a lot of .375 Model 70s out there if that is the way one wants to go.

The 40 BSA was from memory shorter and about .400". A cool cart for sure. I did as much research as I could buy could not find anything just an unimproved .423" on an unimproved 375 HH. As far as I know this is a first that is recorded.

Congratulations to Boomy and thanks to D'Arcy, a very well thought out addition.



SSR

Next step proper headstamp for Africa.

Excellent!
The 404-375 should fit into a Pre-64 M70 just as well as my .395 H&H does:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Five-Shooter and perfect feeder with FN solid COL of 3.570" and Hollowpoint semi-spitzer soft of 3.599".
No Round Noses allowed!

Like one of my "Ugly Rifles" would be how I would build a 404/375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Three Nine Five:

Rusty McGee turned a great, fat 26" McGowen stainless barrel down to match a No.3 Douglas sporter contour PLUS .020" extra diameter near the muzzle.
After shortening to 23" length, the muzzle diameter was 0.665".
Perfect.
Enlarging the caliber from .375 to .395, shortening barrel length by one inch, and fattening a little near the muzzle:

It still weighs 6.75 pounds "dry weight."
Add the scope bases and receiver sight: 7.0 pounds.

I like it.
Scoped, loaded, slung: 8.5 pounds














The metal finish on the action is original 1958 Winchester bluing.

The barrel is McGowen stainless bead blasted and sent through the bluing with the new front sight, NECG.

The texture paint must be sand in black epoxy paint? It has been on safari in Botswana (2001), and bear hunting in Alaska (1993), as a .375 H&H.
No scratches, chips or visible wear.
Looks as good as it did the day gunsmith Kelly Olson painted it after glass bedding the Brown Precision "Pounder" stock, composite of graphite, Kevlar, fiberglass.
Kelly was in Eagle River, Alaska then (1992), Buffalo, Minnesota, last I heard.
Walt Sherman started this rifle by rebarreling a 300 H&H to .375 H&H, when I was in Tallahassee,FL, about 1990.
Rusty McGee has finished it to perfection, as a .395 H&H, at Falls of Rough, KY, 2011.

It has been over 20 years in the making.
The action is 53 years old.
Took 3 good gunsmiths to get it right.

Brass is easy for this one. Winchester brass, and scratch the "7" into a "9" to make a 395 H&H.
It would be easier on D'Arcy's shoulder too, however those cast-lead-gas-checked 410-grainers go over 2200 fps.

Hi D'Arcy,

Would a person also be able to easily use this, slightly shortened to say 3.36" in a Springfield or standard length mauser?

I love the name 404x375 too, sounds classy. like the two classics got together and created this new one.

Red

The neck tension area is about one caliber length so if you maintain the original taper you would have almost no neck.

D'Arcy recommended I go the shortened version of the 404-375 in March of 2010, and sent me some dummies with full explanation of how to do it even what I needed in reamers and dies. It actually would heave a longer neck than the 416 taylor long neck that I'm doing. My understanding is with cartridges that have this very slight neck is cutting it with a second cutter (IIRC from talking to the reamer maker)

COL 3.36-3.365 with 400g Swift. an 06 and a 375 in there for comparison.

What is interesting is the 404 bullets are supposed to be shorter tip to crimp than most .655" instead of the nominal .8" CIP specs so a 2/3rds neck could work in a shorter action but from what I remember 404 Jeffery carts were made to work on the shorter than magnum Mauser actions.
See the CIP spec max oal is 3.53"

I get what you're saying, the 404 also would fit that length why not stick with it? What makes the 404-375 cartridge great for springfields specifically is not the length so much as the case dimensions and taper. if you take a milled 03 box and open up still leaving enough for strength these stack beautifully. I was gonna get a pic of that this morning but was too lazy to open the safe for my springfield when I realized I don't have any loose 03 magazines any more.

Red

The taper is one of the main great things about this cart. The shorter version for your needs does sound cool. 2.65"? Maybe chamber for the longer version and single loads with the longer and shorter ones from the mag? Just trim the neck back.

D'Arcy,
Some time ago I built a 404/416 Rem and it was a dandy round IMO..Later uses the 404/375 Ruger. Liked them both.

My latest is a 9.5x62 on the 9.3x62 case..Had a really nice shot out 9x57 Mauser with claw mounts and oct. to round barrel..Now I'm researching load data and have met with zilch..Guess I'll use 9.3x62 and 375 scoville data as a starting point..

Its a slim trim light rifle and will probably jar loose my fillings, I rigged 3 fireforming rounds with mild loads and they shook the earth!

BTT

The 404/375 H&H makes perfect sense as an easy move-up thump power... A new barrel would make better sense using a 2.8" case length specification which would allow a more normal seating of monometal style bullets; I know the .423 caliber CEB BBW#13 bullets were designed with a .776" length from upper seating groove (just below the upper driving band) to meplat. There is a minor groove above the upper driving band that will allow the bullets to be seated/crimped within the 404 Jeffery to CIP COAL specification but the most positive crimp is using the seating groove between the two upper driving bands.

Perhaps as DArcy has already built the 404/375 H&H he and Boomy could settle on a single chamber specification and then release for all to use.

I'm using a 0.220" freebore including chamfer height with my .423/338 Lapua with a 3.6" magazine.

BTT

D'Arcy -

I have owned and shoot a .404/.375 H&H for 30 years. (It was in 1973 I got mine. Mine is built on one of the first month of production Remington 700 BDL actions which came in 7m/m Rem. Mag (first month of the 7m/m mag, not the action, which seems to be a dolled up 721 Remington action Remington then began selling as the 700 BDL). My barrel is either an Apex or an A&M; I can't recall which. It is chmbered and stamped .404 Barnes Supreme.

Anyway, I used .375 H&H brass necked up and fire formed to a larger, sharer shoulder for many of those years. When the .416 Remington brass became available, I switched to using it. The .416 Remington brass requires only being necked down to accept 400 grain .411" diameter bullets to work perfectly in my rifle.

I too started out with the heavy jacket Barnes bullets, but with pure copper tubing for jackets, they just wouldn't hold together on impact with anything of large size.

I think it is a sweetheart of a round, but if I was going to build another, it sure as heck wouldn't end up weighing only 7 1/2 pounds like my current one does without a scope mounted.

Because it is so light, I am currently using it as a switch-barrel rifle. The barrel on it right this instant is chambered for 7m/m Weatherby Mag (because I got a brand new take-off Remington barrel in that chambering for just $50. But I still have the .404 Barnes barrel a set of dies, and about 200 rounds of loaded ammo for it.

I'm cannot remember exactly the case specs on the Barnes Supreme but I believe there is a distinct shoulder and the case is blown out so it is similar to the current 416 Remington. I also recall that A&M and Douglas were the only barrel makers that made .423 barrels. The 404 version discussed here has no shoulder at all and looks just like a 458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
I'm cannot remember exactly the case specs on the Barnes Supreme but I believe there is a distinct shoulder and the case is blown out so it is similar to the current 416 Remington. I also recall that A&M and Douglas were the only barrel makers that made .423 barrels. The 404 version discussed here has no shoulder at all and looks just like a 458 Lott.

Yes, it is identical to the .416 Remington case except it uses .411" bullets. In fact I've always thought Remington just "co-opted" the Barnes to make their .416. Anyway, the shoulder does not cause any problems in making mine feed. And it has enough power I've never worried about whether I had four in the rifle or one more.

The Barnes Supreme (BS) line of cartridges was around in 1949 or earlier.
They published an advertising pamphlet for those cartridges in 1949.

I have .416 BS and 450 BS rifles, MarX Mauser, RCBS reloading dies, and 200 pieces of Barnes Supreme basic cylindrical brass (belted H&H +2.8").
Willis Fowler, Gunsmith, of Anchorage Alaska, supplied the kit and kaboodle for me in 1986,
made from Whitworth actions, with "Star" barrels,
just before Remington brought out the .416 Remington.
I was not so special after that.

That brass was used to make the entire line of cartridges, just neck them down to the selected caliber, and trim.
Headstamp says only "Barnes Supreme."

Yes they all had shoulders.

Buhmiller, Ackley, Barnes, and likely others, were all doing similar stuff in the late 1940s.

So Remington did not steal the .416 Hoffman,
but George Hoffman was pivotal in the .416 revival.

I still like the boomy -D'Arcy straight wall theorem-should feed like greased glass.And as D'Arcy points out--5 shooter-

looks like a good one to me-- Heck i have a 416 wildcat(416 B&M) why not a 404 also?

D'Arcy have you had the chance to play with yours any more?

SSR

Sean,
Just buy yourself a SC' M70 Safari Express in .375 H&H, send it off to have the barrel properly bored for the 404 upgrade and have your gunsmith do the throat work. A set of custom dies and your .404/375 H&H is complete. I'd recommend a 10", at most 12", twist rate and have the barrel cut back to 22"-23", install a new front sight and your good to go.

Red,
With most .404 bullets you can go with a 2.65" case length and still be =/< 3.36" COAL.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The Barnes Supreme (BS) line of cartridges was around in 1949 or earlier.
They published an advertising pamphlet for those cartridges in 1949.

.

I knew the Barnes Supremes were already around when Ackley published the first edition of his famous book for handloaders. When I said during the first month of production, I was not referring to the cartridge, but when my 700 BDL rifle action was made, in late, late, 1961.

I still think it sad that the Barnes line never really caught on, just like I also think it sad that the Gibbs line didn't really become very popular either. All of them could do whatever practical hunting is done by today's vunder-boomers.

Curious, that a standard 375 would make the same velocity as the original 404J.

Rich

Modern powders---

I can do Original 416 Rigby velocities in my 416 B&M. and stay under 60,000 PSI.thats in a M70 short action--sweet and slick and short-

I've read and enjoyed this thread and appreciate the information and opinions.
My opinion is that like most modern day wild cats it is being done and discussed because some one wanted to and offers little contribution over what already exists. Many of my wild cats were built for like reason.
A well built, strong, contemporary .bolt rifle .404 hand loaded ,will perform as well as what is being discussed here.
Truthing, I'm not a big bore wildcatter. My largest contribution was a .358x.404 IMP.My preference, however, when deciding whether to use a .375 H&H case or the .404 case I guess I side with the .404.
Other than that it has been an interesting discussion conducted by some very experienced hands. roger

Great rifle that is, good working rifle .

Sean,

those same modern powders reestablish the velocity disparity in favor of the larger cartridge if applied, do they not?

Bartsche,

doing so deprives you of the joys of working a belted VS beltless case, no?

Rich

Yes they do , but your original question referenced ORIGINAL 404 J ballistics.

Just like i can run my 416 B&M at original 416 Rigby ballistics, you can now run the Rigby at Weatherby ballistics-

so thats how you can get Original 404 J ballistics from a 375 wildcat.

I have considered this round over the years as I'm a 404 fan...but always wondered if it headspaced on the shoulder or the belt?? It there enough shoulder to headspace on? There was on the 404/416 Rem but thats a bit straigter case as it was a 8mm mag case originally, which is probably the same as an375 Imp case????.

There is no shoulder.