Could someone fill me in on the role f.p.s. and energy play in making a good stopper? I found myself reading and thinking about this the other day, and I admit I found my self not 100% clear on the subject. From what I have heard, please correct me if I'm wrong, with the larger calibers (416 Rigby, 458 Lott etc.) 2200 fps is the bench mark for creating an explosive entry? I'm just not too sure on the role that energy plays in the mix of things. Any knowledge you could share would greatly help put my mind at ease! Thanks for all the help!!!

Try this article
http://www.internetgunclub.com/articles/showarticle.php?id=71

good read..

ME means NOTHING... you can run a 55gr fast enough to be 5000ft-lbs, but unless you are comparing basically the same caliber, ME doesn't tell you anything.

bore of greater than .440
SD of near .300 or higher
MV of at least 2050 but not higher than about 2500

jeffe

Michael you have a PM.

That was a nice article ! Energy is a poor measure . For handguns Hatcher worked out a formula that agreed with actual experience .It was based on momentum [weightxvelocity] x dia x dia.I think that would be valid for DG rounds also.

We have backed in to the definition, chiefly thanks to the Brits.

No one started out saying "I need to get to 5,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy with a big, long heavy bullet or I won't have a stopper."

What happened was that Brits (and Boers and others) first went to Africa with enormous shoulder cannons, a/k/a bore rifles, firing massive hardened lead bullets that weighed four, six or eight to the pound ahead of hundreds of grains of fine grained black powder.

They found that these would kill elephant, although not without a lot of trouble. Plus the rifles themselves weighed upwards of 20 pounds and generated enormous recoil.

When smokeless powder came along, the trend quickly developed to use smaller and smaller bores, as small as the .256 Mannlicher, for example, even on thick-skinned dangerous game. The intrepid small bore DG hunters would use long, heavy for caliber solid bullets, driven to high velocities, often in excess of 2,300 and sometimes to as much as 3,000 feet per second.

These little bullets would penetrate, to be sure - plenty deep enough, for example, to brain an elephant. But it was learned, by trial and error, that they were not stoppers, i.e., they could not be relied upon to put an angry or wounded and determined dangerous animal down for good or at least turn him with one well placed but non-central nervous system shot.

Bigger bullets were needed. Velocity was still important, but it was found that much over 2,400-2,500 feet per second was superfluous, and sometimes even counterproductive.

So, again, chiefly the Brits, backed in, by trial and error, to the formula we have and use today. 5,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy and a long, heavy bullet of at least .45 caliber. Just so happens that that formula requires a muzzle velocity of about 2,100 feet per second. That is the minimum for a stopper. Not theoretically, but empirically proven.

And, of course, a stopper must be blessed with excellent, well constructed bullets, or all else will go for naught.

good posts by all. Let me add, there is a correlation between velocity and bullet weight for a "stopper". My definition, something that will breakdown an adrenaline-charged beast that can easily kill you in less than a second on impact. If you go to www.beartoothbullets.com on the left side you will see a menu. Go down to "ballisticians corner" and see the various formulae for calculating energy, etc. Take the Taylor Knockout Value test...get over 100 and you are good to go up against anything at close quarters under any circumstances, IMHO.
Punch in the classic .577 Nitro Express 3" load, a 750grain bullet, .577" diameter bullet at 2050fps.
Prime example: my new wildcat 550 Gibbs magnum. Shoot a 600gr bullet at 2350 versus the massive 881gr bullet at 2000fps. Look at Muzzle Energy, KO Value, and recoil values. The 881 is like trying to stop a freight train.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Stopper is .458 caliber and above. I prefer a bolt action and my choice would be a .500 Schuler.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
So, again, chiefly the Brits, backed in, by trial and error, to the formula we have and use today. 5,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy and a long, heavy bullet of at least .45 caliber. Just so happens that that formula requires a muzzle velocity of about 2,100 feet per second. That is the minimum for a stopper. Not theoretically, but empirically proven.

I've never hunted DG, probably never will ... but for debate I'd consider 5000fpe from a 40cal and over as a stopper. Bonus being that rifles/chamberings that give that level of performance are manageable. In the rush for bigger is better ... unless your happy to use and make just a single shot, there has to be a point where recovery from recoil is compromised.
Cheers...
Con

/

Alf-

So, I guess you don't believe any of the stories of ph's that claim to have knocked out elephant etc. with missed brain shots? Personally, I'm not sure about it, but having read so many reports of it, I have a problem disregarding it as fallacious all together.

That being said, an animal can certainly be stopped without having hit its CNS, and bigger bullets do matter with these circumstances. Also, frontal chest shots have been known to stop charging animals, of course, they've been known not to also. However, shooting a sufficiently powerful rifle also is advantageous in this circumstance.

My ridiculous anology- If charged by an elephant, My 470 will work more effectively at stopping a charge than will a 22-250, whether or not I hit the brain or spine. First of all, you've got to be able to penetrate that boss or skull or whatever, and that reguires a certain amount of penetrating power and a proper bullet.

Animals can be shot and not hit in the brain and still turned or stopped. More powerful rifles are, in my mind, more effecient at this than relatively less powerful rifles.

quote:

First of all, you've got to be able to penetrate that boss or skull or whatever, and that reguires a certain amount of penetrating power and a proper bullet.

Whilst killing is a matter of biology, and "stopping" in particular draws the circle closer to disrupting the CNS, we do need the mechanics to do that - be it on an easy broad-side shot on game or penetrating the head of an elephant, and therefore we need to pick the right caliber/load/bullet combination for a specific application and that is when it is useful to consider the driving force and the brakes that the expanding bullet will apply - ie Mo/Xsa. For that headshot on the elephant naturally we will steer clear of any expanding bullet as deep penetration is our goal, but it still comes down to Mo/Xsa.

Warrior

While caliber has the advantage in "Stopper Value", Bullet placement is paramount, exceeding all other formulas!

I knew this thread would get interesting

So the Bwanna Saeed Index is a bunch of crap?

Saeed seems to think highly of the 375 put in its right place.

Lets not forget that the bullet is a big part of this equation...

Functional impact velocities.
Bullet design...

and yes most important placement.

I agree with Alf...the stopper depends on the shooter...Diameter within reason.

To take away a wise person wrote
"Reload, shoot and repeat...often."

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

And here is the thing, it's more likely that a shooter who can control his aim, rifle recoil and knows where to aim that is more likely to hit the brain of a charging animal than a shooter shooting a big kicking ultra bore gun who cannot control the rifle under stress fire.

This has always been my gospel, and I think the biggest issue is to be honest about our own recoil-limit. To be able to control a rifle at the range, is not the same as to control the rifle under stress fire. However, at a certain point, the bullet gets to small. John Taylor claimes that with a good bullet with good SD, 4000 ft.-lbs is safe against any game, anywere. The stuff he did with his .400NE is just amazing.

Lay down on your back, and try to fire (from your shoulder) stright ahead to stright up in the air - if you can not make two quick, conetrolled shots, what good is it?

mrlexma summed it up as good as any explain it.

There are few cartridges that will stop any animal regardless of the point of impact, short of a cannon round.

"Stopping" is only a relative term that implies that if the shot is "close" there is an excellent chance that the large animals will be dropped or turned. That starts at 5000 ft-lbs and 400 grs. of bullet.

With anything less than those two numbers, you are just kidding yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

With anything less than those two numbers, you are just kidding yourself.

Will, do you really think Taylor was a clown? Have you any reports from any source who has shot at least 1/10 of his number of ele's?

I know for sure I have never shot an ele, so I am not trying to be a smart-ellic - just wondering how Taylors opinions can be so easily eliminated?

I've never been charged by a large DG Animal.
In all the video that I have see the only "Charge Stopping" shots I have seen have involved bullets to brain or spine.

Anyone have a different story?

As stated above, the striking the CNS with sufficient caliber/energy to destroy/disrupt it's functions seems to be the main criteria for a "Stopper". Once again bullet placement counts the most.

Bent,

I wasn't picking on you! I just think that what I said was true, regardless of what Taylor said.

Taylor in his "African Rifles ..." tended to pander to his intended audience. He has many declarative statements about different cartridges as to not insult any particular cartridge or its proponents.

Though Taylor might have used the 450/400 extensively I don't think, from what I can decifer from his books, that it was his go-to gun.

Unfortunately, few, including myself, have enough experience to authoritatively make declarative statements on any particular cartridge, but from experience the 5000 ft-lb/400 gr. bullets have much more effect on elephants than anything smaller.

If I went to hunt elephants with a 9.3 or 450/400 or 375 or whatever and the elephant goes down from a near miss then the conclusion is "Indeed it is an elephant rifle."

But I can tell you in a fight with a 9.3 vs a 458 WM, the 458 wins every time, by a big margin.

I would have no big concern about using the 450/400, but it just wouldn't be my go-to gun.

Use yours with joy and confidence.

I'm of the opinnion that a bullet must at least graze the brain to knock an elephant down, Any hit is lieable to turn a charge, some elephants are sissys and some are not! but the bottom line is if you wish to stay alive its best to poke a hole in the brain or spine on a charging animal..

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Alf-

So, I guess you don't believe any of the stories of ph's that claim to have knocked out elephant etc. with missed brain shots? Personally, I'm not sure about it, but having read so many reports of it, I have a problem disregarding it as fallacious all together.

I think you mis-read Alf's comment; he clearly said brain or near-brain. And in the near-brain miss, bullet frontal area increases the knock-out potential. Which is why so many people start at .458 for a true stopper even though a 375 or 416 in the brain has the same stopping effect as a 458 or larger.

Lets end the debate...A 577 in every gunsafe and a chicken in every pot!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So the Bwanna Saeed Index is a bunch of crap?

It is indeed like all the other "KO and Lethality Indices." It is certainly no worse. It is at least honest in calling itself the "BS Index."

index schmindex... dont mean $#@% with a bad shot but a decent rule of thumb with a decent bullet and shot.

nice photoshop rip

he looks like he is thinking up a wildcat

Yep, that is what makes the .395 so awesome. ... The proper bullet placed properly, not too fast, and not too slow on the delivery, and a portable and comfortable-to-shoot rifle from any field situation, capable of any reasonable hunting range near or far. Sort of like a .375.

First priority: A bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Lets end the debate...A 577 in every gunsafe and a chicken in every pot!

Boomstick,
I believe Peter Capstick often wrote about the power of chickens and chicken blood applied judiciously with the aid of a witch doctor. With a 577 and a chicken ... you could definately take on anything!

Guys,
Seems that a few hunters in Africa between the 40's through to the 70' did quite a bit of culling work. Did any ever put anything into print? Seems the guys forced to take any and every shot, good, bad and ugly, bulls, cows, calves (culling is never pretty ) would not only rack up large numbers but offer an interesting perspective.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

a portable and comfortable-to-shoot rifle from any field situation, capable of any reasonable hunting range near or far

Great way to sum up the beauty of the 400 N.E.
Build it on a 9,3 double for a heck of a rig...

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I've never been charged by a large DG Animal.
In all the video that I have see the only "Charge Stopping" shots I have seen have involved bullets to brain or spine.

Anyone have a different story?

As stated above, the striking the CNS with sufficient caliber/energy to destroy/disrupt it's functions seems to be the main criteria for a "Stopper". Once again bullet placement counts the most.

Rusty,

I have stopped an elephant with a miss. 458wm, 450gr North Fork flat nose solid at 2190fps, range seven yards. Missed the brain low.

I ahve also knocked out a couple of elephants which still showed signs of breathing and or eye reaction on approach and touching the eye ball with a rifle barrel. Killed with zero range insurance shot. Same rifle for all, either 500gr Woodlieghs at 2135fps or 450gr North Forks at 2190fps.

JPK

Tiggertate-

Yes, I did miss that part of his comment, and I agree with what you say about the .458.

Alf said- "The fact is in real life the shot that hits the brain and or spine is the stopper, not the TKOV, momentum, muzzle energy, size of the bullet or whatever formula that is derived.

The hunter can be armed with the biggest baddest gun in the world, if he cannot hit the brain or spine or at least close to the brain the animal is not going to be stopped."

I was just pointing out that DG or otherwise can be stopped without necessarily hitting or hitting close to the brain, although not with certainty. In this particular scenario, it is advantageous to have a bigger gun.

I was also pointing out that you have to have a big enough gun to penetrate the skull of an ele or the bosses of a cape... another case where bigger is better.

Also, near brain shots with a 22 won't do squat, whereas the same shot with a 458 Lott will. We could also discuss this same reasoning on shoulder shots etc., but it's a "stopping" thread, and I figure that means most animals will be charging face first.

I agree that accuracy and bullet construction might be the most important factors, but increased size/ power/ whatever you want to call it, is also an advantageous quality in a "stopping" rifle. If you shoot a charging buffalo in the face totally missing the brain, a 600 nitro will work more effectively than a 30-06 etc.

IMHO:

A stopper fits in the same category as horseshoes and hand grenades, and nuclear weapons..."close enough counts...".

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

A 577, 550 or 400 Nitro in every gunsafe