Just got a double (Krieghoff b5 PH) in 500/416. Not shot it yet. What do you guys think of the caliber in general? I have read that it is great for elephant (Ganyana) since it has high SD and penetration (410 grain bullet at 2370 fps). Does it qualify as a stopping caliber as it has comparable energy to a 470 NE(5k energy) as well as great penetration?

Also. We have a discussion on a local forum here in Norway about bottlenecked cartridges in break actions (such as doubles) lead to more pressure directed towards the action of the gun than non bottlenecked cartridges even if the two operate with identical pressure. I have a hard time understanding the theory behind this. And the key word is identical pressure. I can understand how it is easier to build up pressure in a bottlenecked cartridge but if they are loaded to equal pressure, how can they have different energy distribution in the gun (internal ballistics)? The purists here are very negative of bottlenecked cartridgesin drillings and doubles for this reason...

Norsk, welcome to the forum. A member her, Dave Bush, has quite a bit of experience with the 500-416 in a Krieghoff, and can give you some load recommendations when he sees your entry. The 500-416 is the only double rifle caliber to attain the "400gr @ 2,400 fps" milestone sought by many of the best African calibers, like the 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, 450 Dakota and Rigby, etc. Good luck with the rifle.

Fantastic caliber. I can help you with load data should you need it. Do you have access to H1000 That seems to be the powder of choice for the .500/.416. I have a K-gun as well. Don't worry about pressures. They are very mild.

I like the 40 caliber but this one kicked as hard as a .470 so I opted for the .470 and its extra wallop!

I mailed Krieghoff and the replied after a day with load data, pressure testing and detailed cartridge schematics. Superb service!

The load data was 410gr Woodleigh and 109.5gr H1000. Oal 103mm Average velocity 2379 fps. That should be what the B5 is regulated for.

Not really worried about pressure, just puzzled by the theory of increased rearward directed energy in bottlenecked cartridges compared to straighet walled once after controlling for pressure (equal)...

470 level recoil means similar "whallop" as momentum is roughly equal to recoil? 470 is more available tho...

Thanks for the replies, will

I have fired more than my share of big doubles over the years, from best-quality English sidelocks to plain new-production European-made boxlocks, in many calibres from .240 and .303 to .470's and .500's.

Just this weekend I had the opportunity to fire a brand new Krieghoff "Big Five" in .500/416 for the first time. It was one of the hardest kicking firearms I have ever had the displeasure to shoot. The recoil was fast, the rifle reared up like a bronco, making the comb smash into my my cheek, and my trigger finger got bashed when I pulled the back trigger. In addition, I got the impression that the .500/416's recoil was a lot faster than, say, that of the .470 which has always felt more like a push to me rather than a whack. In other words, the .500/416 recoils like a 10-pound .416 Rigby with full loads. This makes sense, I think, from a ballistic point of view.

Others are more than welcome to disagree with me here, and I certainly mean no disrespect here regarding your choice of a rifle or calibre, but neither the Krieghoff "Big Five" nor the .500/416 is for me. I think the rifle's stock needs some serious redesign, I don't like the open sights, and I've never had any time for that unsightly cocking lever or the Germanic frills to the stock such as the scnabel on the fore-end.

Like I said, these are my own thoughts. I'm not a Krieghoff expert, and it may very well be that the stock of the rifle I fired didn't fit me as well as it should have, but if I have to endure that level of recoil on a continuous basis I will almost certainly go for a .470 or .500 instead.

Crucify me if you will, but these are my thoughts. If the rifle/cartridge combo works for you, excellent. It will certainly put down the big stuff with authority.

Good lord, what the heck is the matter with you pansies. Ohhhh, it kicks. Of course your going to get more recoil than a 450/400. That's because your driving a 410 bullet at 2350 fps. It's a lot more gun. However, it you can shoot a 10.5 pound .416 Rigby (and I can) you should have no trouble shooting a 500/416. IMHO, the weight of the K-gun is about perfect for one of the off-the-rack guns. When your hunting, your gonna carry the damn thing a hell of a lot more than your going to shoot it. People say they would step up to the 470. Well, the 500/416 is going to give you a hell of a lot more penetration than a 470. Kicks more than a .500. Give me a break. jvw375, if the rifle "reared up like a bronco, making the comb smash into my my cheek" than you wern't holding correctly.

The 500/416 brings the double rifle in to the modern era and is the perfect double rifle cartridge. It's a .416 Rigby in a double. How cool is that.

P.S. Norsk, my K-gun shoots better with 108 grains of H-1000 and a 410 Woodleigh or 400 grain Hornady. If you could PM me with the stuff you got from Krieghoff, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I mailed Krieghoff and the replied after a day with load data, pressure testing and detailed cartridge schematics. Superb service!

The load data was 410gr Woodleigh and 109.5gr H1000. Oal 103mm Average velocity 2379 fps. That should be what the B5 is regulated for.

Not really worried about pressure, just puzzled by the theory of increased rearward directed energy in bottlenecked cartridges compared to straighet walled once after controlling for pressure (equal)...

470 level recoil means similar "whallop" as momentum is roughly equal to recoil? 470 is more available tho...

Thanks for the replies, will

When you reduce the bore diameter by bottle-necking and burn a similar amount of powder as a similar capacity straight case, you effectively increase the pressure at the muzzle by enough to feel the difference. Peak pressure nearer the chamber however, was probably the same. Think of a rocket nozzle and whether a rocket would work if the opening in the bottom were as large as the diameter of the fuel tank. It takes more time for the pressure to reduce because there's less internal volume inside the barrel, all else being equal. Make sense?

I am not sure if i understand. The argument on the forums here were that energy (not pressure) was redirected rearward because of the bottleneck cartridge shape.

About the recoil, I fired 380 grains (rhino) bullets at 2300 fps (74 grain powder) in my 375 bolt action. Recoil was fine, a bit troublesome from prone position since the scope had short eye relief.

So my 375 = 380+74 = 454 grain mass launched at 2300 fps in a 9 pound rifle

The 500/416 = 410+109 = 519 grain mass launched at 2350 fps in a 10.5 pound rifle.

So I am going up 55 grain mass and 50 fps. Does not seem like a big deal, especially with added 1.5 pound rifle weight. Think i will shoot it from prone unscoped and see what it feels like.

By the way, Dave I emailed you the info from Krieghoff...

Here's an example that will (hopefully) clarify the bottleneck/pressure question.

Start with a straight case that has a .458" ID.
This happens to be 0.15 square inches. (pi x R squared)

If the maximum pressure of the load is 50,000 psi, the force directed at the back of the action will be 7500 pounds.

Now expand the back of the case so the ID is 0.60 inches the bullet is still .458 so you have a bottlenecked case. The back of the case now is 0.28 square inches.

If the pressure stays at 50,000 psi, the force directed at the rear of the case will be now be 14000 pounds.

The bottlenecked case will therefore direct more force rearwards with the same pressure. I suppose it could shear locking lugs or something. Then again, the bottlenecked case has more capacity so the only way for the maximum pressure to stay the same would be to use more powder and slower burning powder with a total area under the pressure curve which is bigger. I.e. higher velocity.

I have found that the 500/416 kicks about the same as a 470. A 450/400 does kick a little less.

When shooting at game, you will not notice the recoil.

You need to do two things. First shoot it a lot, and do a lot of pig hunting with your 500/416.

Second, buy it an airplane ticket to Zimbabwe...

Dave,
Sorry old boy and I'm not trying to pick a fight just statin another opine, but your reply to jvw375, just tells me that you have not shot the 500/416 and your surmising with arrogance unbecoming to you, and contrary to what I have come to expect from you.

Who told you the 416 would out penetrate the 470, that is purely another one of those myths spread by some gun scribe, it never has in my penetration tests, but all the doubles penetrate about the same or within one or two inches, so I have never been concerned..

Like some others on this board, I get the impression the 500-416 has more snap and come back and is worse than my .470..Butch Searcy brought this to my attention several years ago and I tried one out..I bought the .470 based on that try out.

If you think the 500-416 kills better than a .470 your mistaken..One thing you can take to the bank on doubles and for the big bolt guns also is the bigger the bore at like velocities then the champion will always be the bigger one. Its simple math, more powder, more lead, more power.

I hunt with the 404 and 416 and always prefered the 450-400 in a double, but never was delusional about the 40s being the lesser in killing power and I can testify the 470 will hit'em harder than any 40 caliber and they go down quicker also, and it will penetrate a elephants skull better than any 40 caliber IMO.

As to recoil? admitabley, that is an individual thing but a fast snap recoil to me is severe ala the 378,460 Wby, and 500-416 in doubles.

Ray, I have shot the 500/416 mucho plenty... In fact, I have one and a .470 too! I believe that because of the higher velocity and smaller diameter a .416 flat nose solid will out penetrate a heavier, slower solid from the 470 but that's just my opinion.

The 470 has been around for a long time and I think a lot of the negative stuff about the 500/416 comes from guys who own 470s dissing the new kid on the block. When you are looking at that old dagga boy, you won't even feel the recoil...

As always, I value and respect your opinion. Too bad we can't argue this over a glass of fine bourbon

Good hunting my friend.

Recoil can be a subjective thing.

Some people find recoil velocity to be more uncomfortable that a slower but heavier push.

I shot a 500/416 and a 470 side by side on one of our DRSS hunts.
I prefered the recoil of the 470.

I also feel the 500/416 and the 470 kick quite a bit more than a 450/400.

I have never found the 450/400 to be short on killing power.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
By the way, Dave I emailed you the info from Krieghoff...

Got it. Thank you!

If a double shooting 400 gr. bullet kicks that much, it almost has to be a stock fit issue. Believe it or not, a too-short stock can turn a pussycat into a real beast.

My father's favorite .375 kicks me to death and is the only rifle I've ever shot that drew blood from a scope cut (on zero check in the Selous).

I would much rather shoot my .416 or .458 Lott than that rifle. The only reason I don't restock it was my fathers.

Thank you for explaining the pressure distribution as a function of bore diameter in relation to case diameter. I think i understand the theory. But if I understand you correctly, the pressure curve will be longer for bottlenecked cartridges loaded to the same pressure, will this reduce the energy peak?

Also in regards to recoil. I thought recoil velocity of different cartridges (higher velocity leads to more recoil velocity) was a myth. If one fires identical guns (same weight) producing identical momentum using identical powder charges, the recoil velocity will be identical no matter what diameter or weight of the bullets used? Say a 470 firing a slower moving 500 grain projectile vs a 416 firing a lighter, faster projecile.

http://www.10xshooters.com/cal...ecoil_Calculator.htm

Recoil velocity seems to be a function of recoil energy, that is the more recoil energy the more recoil velocity. As we all know recoil energy is a function of energy in the other end of the gun as well.

I built a double some years ago for myself with the help of Rick Stickley..It was a wildcat double in that I used the 450-400 case necked down to the 416 bullet as opposed the the .423 bullet..It was a great gun and killed buffalo quite well as one would suspect..It was easy to load for all you had to do was run the 450-400 cases thru the resizing die. After awhile I tired of it and a fellow had to have it so I sold it to him. It was an interesting 416 double and recoil was very low, accuracy was excellent..

BTW, I still have the RCBS custom dies if anyone wants them for collector items, or has an itch to build one. Make me an offer..

The 500-416 should be a great single shot cartridge.
Anyone know what the case max psi is?
Maybe in a custom #1 you could use it for PG and target as well with 416 Barrett bullets seated out long.

One day I'll get around to finishing my Fraser single shot in 500/416. I've got everything but the barrel I want. Been a while since I looked at the numbers on quickload but with slow powders I could get close to 416 WBY velocities. Working pressure for the 500/416 is 45k and I think going to 55k shouldn't stress the brass. So at least 2500, maybe even 2600 fps with a 370 to 400 gr bullet. Ouch! Makes my shoulder smart to think about that.

Have owned a 500/416 and love the round. Several PH's have aquired spare barrels for their Krieghoffs in this cal for use when hunting elephant as it has significantly better penetration than the .470 or .500 NE.

I do mostly elephant or lion and so chose a round appropriate for these two species. Most PH's do far more buff so a .500 NE makes sence there.

Recoil??? A.416 does't have recoil- at least not enough to bother most folk if they do some practice. I switched to a .375 FL as the splits between shots was significantly quicker and I prefered the balance of the rifle. The .450/400 makes the perfect clients gun and a 500/416 is the perfect round for a PH.(unless you are double rugged and use a 9,3 )

quote:

I built a double some years ago for myself with the help of Rick Stickley..It was a wildcat double in that I used the 450-400 case necked down to the 416 bullet as opposed the the .423 bullet.

Ray,

Not trying to be stickler here but. A .450-400 is generally a .411 diameter (.405-.411 to be exact) not a .423 so if you in fact necked a .450-400 to .416 you would have been necking it up, not down and the difference in diameter would have been .005" with a bullet of identical weight of 400 grains. I'm thinking you went through a bunch of trouble and money for absolutely no discernible performance gain or loss with no difference in recoil.

So the big question to me is why would you do that?

quote:

when hunting elephant as it has significantly better penetration than the .470 or .500 NE.

Is that not more of the function of the bullet than the case or diameter?

I once necked up a 360No.2 case to accept a 416 bullet. Looked quite nice and would make a great cartridge IMO.
Must be very similar to a 500/416.

Concerning the discussion of the 500/416 being a bottleneck cartridge, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 450/400 also bottle necked?

Boom stick

Penetration with solids on elephants is a combination of sectional density and impact velocity. The .470 has the same SD as a .375 H&H but is going 400fps slower.....416 has considerably better SD than a .375 and isn't going much slower...A .416 rigby /or 500/416) out penetrates the .375 H&H or 9,3 WITH SOLIDS on elephant and Hippo.

.450/400 has approx same SD but is going 200fps slower so will have corespondingly less penetration....still has enough- way more than the .470

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Boom stick

Penetration with solids on elephants is a combination of sectional density and impact velocity. The .470 has the same SD as a .375 H&H but is going 400fps slower.....416 has considerably better SD than a .375 and isn't going much slower...A .416 rigby /or 500/416) out penetrates the .375 H&H or 9,3 WITH SOLIDS on elephant and Hippo.

.450/400 has approx same SD but is going 200fps slower so will have corespondingly less penetration....still has enough- way more than the .470

There is more to penetration than that... Just take a look at Michael458`s thread "Terminal Bullet Performance" - even slow, big calibers with not too good SD will penetrate better than you think when using the right bullet.. Momentum seemingly has something to say as well.. I am convinced that one of the most important factors in bullet penetration is the design of the bullet itself...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Boom stick

Penetration with solids on elephants is a combination of sectional density and impact velocity. The .470 has the same SD as a .375 H&H but is going 400fps slower.....416 has considerably better SD than a .375 and isn't going much slower...A .416 rigby /or 500/416) out penetrates the .375 H&H or 9,3 WITH SOLIDS on elephant and Hippo.

.450/400 has approx same SD but is going 200fps slower so will have corespondingly less penetration....still has enough- way more than the .470

There is more to penetration than that... Just take a look at Michael458`s thread "Terminal Bullet Performance" - even slow, big calibers with not too good SD will penetrate better than you think when using the right bullet.. Momentum seemingly has something to say as well.. I am convinced that one of the most important factors in bullet penetration is the design of the bullet itself...

Yes bullet design is important but Ganyana's explanation is 100% correct assuming all the cartridges he references here are using the same bullet design; such as the CEB BBW #13.

All things being equal in a stable bullet yes a couple hundred fps helps a bit but bullet nose profile seems to trump that 200 FPS.
If penetration is the goal than the nose profile that penetrates deepest is the most efficient. The BBW13 has proven the most efficient thus explaining the wisdom of bullet choice over 200 FPS. Add the most efficient bullet to your 200 FPS advantage and you have penetration advantage this making the bullet choice more important IMHO. Now that being said if you shoot more accurately and get as good or better penetration 200 fps slower you have a real advantage.

Blunt is better and the traditional shape of the .470 is very poor for good penetration, but I have never seen a 500NE, even with a flat nosed barnes Mono equal the penetration of a standard round nosed woodleigh from a .416.

Buffalo...haven't seen the tests, just seen the resluts on elephants and know that the .470 and .500 are marginal on quatering on shots for a big bull...you could use a .45-70 with a good bullet and take the same bull with a square on frontal, hell, even the .458 win works on such shots

The 416 is not magic. Same solid profile, same SD, same velocity and same twist and the penetration should be similar. The 22 BBW13 to 600 proved that. Are you saying the round nose out penetrates the flat nose?

Boomy,

I disagree with Ganyana on the 500 being marginal. I have only heard him say that, while almost all very experienced Elephant PH's that I've listened to or read about say otherwise. But I only have a VERY LIMITED amount of personal experience on Ele's, all with the 500, so I am not qualified to take a stand in opposition and skeptically defer to his experience on this one.

But I do agree with his assessment that the 416 will out penetrate most of the others. What he is saying, if I may be so bold as to interpret, is that assuming the same sectional density, same velocity, and same shape and construction of the projectile, the 416 will out penetrate a 470 or 500 due to the 416 having less resistance to overcome. It's a matter of frontal area of the bullet. The larger the frontal area, the more resistance that frontal area comes into contact with.

Have you seen the elephant reports with the BBW13 with above 416 up to CCM Docs 600 NE?
They did not lack anything it seems even at 600 NE velocity.

Don't get me wrong boomy, I certainly believe the penetration is quite more than adequate, especially with the CEB's. I've started shooting them now myself. Switched from Barnes. I'm expecting a delivery tomorrow of several boxes of 500, 416, 375, and 9.3 in both the BBW#13 and Non-Cons!


That's what I'm saying about the 500 as well. It has more than enough penetration to take on any Ele, especially with the proper FN solid.

But still, all things being equal, the .375 will penetrate further than the .416, which will penetrate further than the .458, which will penetrate further than the .509, etc. Again, with all things being equal except the diameter (ie frontal area) such as velocity, shape of projectile, sectional density, twist, etc. With the only variable being bullet diameter, the smaller diameter bullet will out penetrate the larger diameter bullet. At least in theory!

I have seen and tested big bores on DG and must agree with Ganjana,the 416 is a great gun that is why i use one.

I am not down on the 416 diameter. All I am saying is all things being equal there should be similar performance. The advantage of the larger bores is more damage if you can shoot it as well as the other calibers. Given the choice of small or medium or large bore the large bore should be more effective due to more damage and similar penetration. Since the 500, 577 and 600 are shot at lower velocities they might not penetrate as deep all things being equal but velocity but they make up for it in damage. Here is the kicker. If a 900 grain CEB BBW13 600 NE can fully penerate a pachederms skull at any angle at 400 fps slower than the 416 penetration is not an issue. Can most shoot or afford the 600? No. If hunting DG 600 to 366 I want a CEB BBW13. Looking at the tests and game results it's a no "brainer". Do other bullets work? Yes. Are some better? Yes. What I am saying is flat nose solids love velocity but the right bullet is more important than 200 FPS velocity. Larger flat nose solids will do more damage and with the right bullet wont need the extra velocity. The 400 grain 416 has a high SD and matched with high velocity flat nose bullets will zip through anything you need it to. Its a matter of style. Some want a 416 at 2,400 out of a double and that is cool but the 416 is not magic nor are round nose bullets IMHO. I think the physiology of the elephant skull helps keep long 416 bullets stable so round nose bullets work but I do think the BBW13 bullets created here are the best on the market. I respect the experience of those here who use and like them but hey, this is a forum where we all can learn, ask questions, make founded assertions, share opinions and enjoy the sports we love. I wish Ganyana would use these bullets and write about them. Other PH's have used them and are now converts. Some people like what is familiar and defend those things but hey, if you are using a modern cart in a modern double how about a modern bullet?

Well - Michael458`s tests and field reports on the BBW#13`s clearly indicate that a .585" or a .620" BBW#13 - even when shot at slow speed - still will penetrate better than all of the smaller bores (INCL THE 400 GRS .416" BBW#13) when shot at the same velocity - lets say 2000-2100 fps. The 750 grs .585" BBW#13 even though it has a lesser SD than the 400 grs .416" will still outpenetrate the 416 if they are both launched at the same velocity... Same will the .620, 900 grs BBW#13 at the same velocity (same SD as the 400 grs .416" bullet) Something to think about eh?? Ganyana is using Art Alphins penetration index which is not good enough any more..

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 416 is not magic. Same solid profile, same SD, same velocity and same twist and the penetration should be similar. The 22 BBW13 to 600 proved that. Are you saying the round nose out penetrates the flat nose?

Boomie:

With the .500/.416, all things are not equal. You get 200-300 fps more velocity with the .500/.416 over most other double rifles cartridges except the .375 flanged but the 400 grain .416 bullet has better sectional density. So, assuming the same nose profile, the .500/.416 should give you superior performance. Don knows what he is talking about. What I can't understand is the lack of acceptance of the .500/.416. It is the cartridge that brings the double rifle into the modern era. When you can get bolt rifle performance out of a double, that is magic indeed.