I surely would like to know more about this cartridge, so I'm asking for information. I am making some assumptions: that it uses a .411 bullet; also that the 450/400 Jeffery and 450/400 Nitro 3" are the same cartridge.

Examples of the type of questions I have are what velocity could be expected from the Ruger #1 chambered in this caliber? Aside from it being a British Classic, why would this cartridge be more desirable than the 405 Winchester, or the 45-70, or perhaps the 416 JDJ for a rimmed rifle cartridge?

Thanks,
KB

http://www.african-hunter.com/450_400_nitro_express.htm

good info...

411 bullet

yes same cart i believe

400@ 2150 is the old school velocity...anyone know what moderate loads will do in a #1???

yes more desirable if you want to hunt big critters but the #1 is not a d.g. rifle for most peoples standards...

quote from above likk i liked most...

whilst the professional hunter chose the 450/400. Even Karamojo Bell started his elephant hunting career with a Jeffery-built double in 450/400. John Pondoro Taylor is ecstatic in his praise of the 450/400 and rates it as “one of the grandest weapons imaginable for all big game huntingâ€. He also noted “I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other calibre; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands. I would happily finish the remainder of my career with a pair of them and nothing else-unless it was a third!†High praise indeed for a man who is usually considered to be the greatest proponent of the .375 as the ‘all round rifle’. Taylor did indeed wax lyrical on the virtues of the .375, but he qualified his statements though, by saying if a man was going to hunt regularly in thick bush, the .400 was more liable to keep his hide intact. Many other professionals agreed with him.

gives the 400 whelen/411hawk/400whelen improved more credence dont it?



30-06 and 411 hawk, able to do 400@ 2150

Kabluewy (or may we call you kB! for short? )

Someone who knows more will pipe up sooner or later, but there were a couple of length .450/400 cartridges 3" and 3 1/4" I believe. Also they were found in .409 and .411" bore sizes.

They are primarily double rifle cartridges, but having a single shot in the same chambering would be the cat's meow for plains game or when the double was out to the cleaners.

most 3 1/4 are 408 and most 3" are 411 but some cross over happened. hornady might make them 410 as not to blow up some rifles.

Boomstick,

Taylor's quote is taken a bit out of context, imo. He thought alot of the 450/400 to be sure, but primarily as a buff cartridge, or for the all rounder role.

The proof of this is in what he chose when he hunted elephants, and that was 450 NE class cartridges, by a large margin.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Boomstick,

Taylor's quote is taken a bit out of context, imo. He thought alot of the 450/400 to be sure, but primarily as a buff cartridge, or for the all rounder role.

The proof of this is in what he chose when he hunted elephants, and that was 450 NE class cartridges, by a large margin.

JPK

If the 450-400 will adequately deal with a buff, and fill the all rounder niche, excluding elephant and T-rex, then it is a remarkable cartridge indeed.

KB

KB,
The 450/400 3 inch, AKA the 400 Jeffery is a remarkable round. In either caliber, .411 or as my rifle is chambered .408 it a dandy round.

It ususally comes in a rifle weighing around 10 pounds. A rifle you can carry all day. You get a long 400 grain bullet that penetrates well! You carry a rifle that is good for plains game and it will handle anything that pops out of the bush! In either loading 60 or 55 Cord, the recoil will not beat you to death.

It isn't a "Stopper" but it is the kind of round that you will hunt with more than "Stopper" round!

Just my opine!

This is great info. Now, the rest of the story. Probably you have read the previous thread about the Ruger #1 being offerd in the 450/400 sometime in the future, and that Hornady will probably be making ammo. I like the Ruger #1, but have never owned one, and probably never will. Instead, I satisfy my single shot fancy with the Encore, especially because of the barrel swapping ability.

As far as DG rifles go, so far in life I haven't been able to justify the money to buy a double rifle, but I like them too. So, mostly my interest in the 450/400 is just for fun, since I really don't need it to hunt D.G. My 375 H&H Win mod 70 will serve any big game needs I may have, since I think I'll see Africa only in my dreams.

My thought is that if this cartridge is useful and appealing in the #1, then why not the Encore? I already have a custom 9.3x74R Encore barrel, which I like very well. I think a 405/400 barrel would be fun too, and I could buy one for far less than the price of a #1. Sure, recoil will be an issue in such a light rifle, but I'll be handloading anyway, so I can load according to how much recoil I can tolerate, and perhaps work up to full potential. I have shot the heavy Buffalo Bore 45-70 loads in the Encore, and didn't find the recoil to be too much. I suspect the 450/400 will be similar.

One bullet that has caught my attention is the North Fork 360 gr .411. When they have it in production, that should be awesome.

I found out that Pac Nor will provide a contoured, and pre-chambered barrel in 450/400 NE, and I think I know who can finish it to fit the Encore frame.

Just a thought. It's a way I can afford to enjoy the experience of shooting a real British classic cartridge.

KB

After reading most if not all of John Taylors books I think the 450/400 was his favorite.
Here is my main reason. When he went on the Great Tana Raid, a poaching expedition for rhino horn, with other poachers [Taylor also made sure he could shoot some elephants as well]
He took 2 rifles a 450/400 3" Purdy double and a 500/465 Holland.
The other poachers had a H&H 500/465 and a Manton 470 and a 404 Bolt rifle.

Taylor used the 400.
When one shooter [the 404 if I remember correctly] ran out of ammo he loaded him his 500/465.
One poacher who had a 465 ran out of ammo and Taylor gave him some ammo as well.

Normally if you have 2 rifles with you you would not loan out your favorite.

Obviously he considered the 400 perfectly adequate for rino and elephant or he would have started out using the 500/465.

That is my theory anyway.

keen observation...

NE 450 No2,

You make a good arguement. But just a few chapters from Boomstick's quote is his discussion of elephant calibres and in particular the 450 NE No2. The book isn't handi but this I recall with out doubt - He shot by far more elephants with a 450 NE No2 then a 450 NE 3 1/4" and a real favorite, due to it relative light weight, the 500/465.

Again, no doubt that he thought highly of the 450/400's, but when it came to what he used for elephants, it was in the 450 class.

JPK

BTW, great arguement to have, eh? ...No, he prefered the fantastic 450/400...Bunkum, he preffered the father of them all the 450 NE 3 1/4" or it big brother the No2...

JPK
You are correct He was a big fan of the 450 No2
and the 500/465...

However, He did write:

"For some reason that I fine it difficult to explain I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other calibre; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands. There is something about the double .400 that just seemed to suit me. I would happily finish the remainder of my career with a pair of them and nothing else-- unless it was a third, just to give me a set of three!"

450 NE No2,

Yes, but as I said, a few chapters away where he is talking about elephant rifles and not all rounders he focuses on the 450's and 465 with the others as an after thought.

I will need to find the book to cite chapter and verse from this bible to counter your quote.

Best,

JPK

BTW, off topic, it looks like my trip to zim will run til the 17th of Oct, were are you going to be around the 1st, 11th or 17th. Maybe we can meet for a beer.

Jpk I will check my schedule and let you know. It seems we are still having a problem getting into the OMAY.
I promised Donza the PH and Ian my Videographer a couple to 3 days in Harare with their Ladies, [Ian will have a new baby] durring my Safari as it will be so long.
It depends on, were we go when, as to what days we will be where, if that makes sense.


The 450 No2 Is MY favorite Double Rifle, for sure.

KB,
We've been waiting for the project to come to fruition, since a couple of us talked with Craig Boddington back in January at the Houston Safari Club show. He told us that Ruger was working on the rifle.

For those of us who already own a 450/400 it will mean a source of affordable brass.

In a Ruger you will be able to load the round up. You'll pay in recoil, but the rifle should be handle the round well.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
KB,
We've been waiting for the project to come to fruition, since a couple of us talked with Craig Boddington back in January at the Houston Safari Club show. He told us that Ruger was working on the rifle.

For those of us who already own a 450/400 it will mean a source of affordable brass.

In a Ruger you will be able to load the round up. You'll pay in recoil, but the rifle should be handle the round well.

I am glad to see the No1 chambered for the 450/400 Jef, because when I heard they were going to do the 405 Win No1 I fulley intended to re-chamber one to 450/400NE 3".

One thing bad about this is those who have No1s in this chambering will inveribly load it up to much higher pressures than used in double rifles, that, and the .411 bullet, it will simply be a matter of time before some dodo puts some of those handloads into a double rifle and blows it!

I've had several No1s made for the same cartridge as my double rifles, but I worked up the loads in my doubles, then adjusted the sights on my No1 to shoot the double rifle load!

I was recently at a press/manufacturer get together with folks in the gun industry from Wyoming. The Ballard folks were there and were showing a hiwall in 450-400. Very nice gun. FYI, the dolt that was in charge for the last few years at Ballard (post Garbe/Long) didn't take care of business. The new guy that recently acquired Ballard is ALL BUSINESS. From the potential velocities that he was talking about It would seem that his 1885 will handle whatever the #1 will.

"simply be a matter of time before some dodo puts some of those handloads into a double rifle and blows it!"

Darwin is alive and well. Nice choice of words (dodo). If someone is that stupid, they will/should go the way of the dodo.....preferably before they have a chance to breed and pass along their genetic defect.

How tough is it to find quality .411 bullets?
Barnes doesn't list any in TSX or solids.

As much as I admire John Taylor for his experience and his groundbreaking effort to catagorize African cartridge ballistics, he also was, at times, full of it, and seemed to try to be all things to all people.

He may have admired the 450/400 but I doubt he used it much on ele hunts, especially under the conditions he hunted....big bags.

Premium bullets?
These are all the premium you'll need in a double rifle! Along with the solids!

WOODLEIGH .411 Midwayusa

Rusty, i agree , take the Woodleigh bullet and it works good, plus it has a good price on them aswell.

The only downside that I can see to a Ruger .450/400 is that more available ammunition will make doubles in that caliber even more desirable and drive up the price. On the other hand, it might make Searcy, Heym, Krieger, et. al. more likely to build new rifles so chambered. I guess it balances out.

Searcy will build you a 450/400 3" and it will weigh in at about 9 1/2lbs, which is just right.

JPK

Just about right for a boat anchor.

Row boat, eh Will?(I would put a smiley here if I knew how!)

I figured that would get a response out of you.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Searcy will build you a 450/400 3" and it will weigh in at about 9 1/2lbs, which is just right.

JPK

If Butch feels like it (and thinks you know what you're talking about), he'll build anything you want but I was trying to imply that it might become a "standard" chambering again. Butch isn't know for suffering fools at all, let alone gladly. My kind of guy!

I handled a Searcy Classic at the last DSC. The Color case hardening looked good.
The double handled good. I told him I thought it was his best feeling double to date.
I think I have heard he has several orders for 450/400's.

Doc52's 577 Searcy was put to gether very well. It handled good and fit me well.

However, I will say that the no recoil feature does not work worth a hoot.

Old Sarge,

It is a standard chambering. In fact, he designed and is making a smaller frame for the 450/400 and 375 Flanged Mag. That is why he can make a 450/400 at 9 1/2lbs.

JPK

Will,

Thats as nice and polite a response I could come up with. I agree with your thoughts on Taylor, But remember, he would toss in his grave at the thought of using your rifle for elephants.(another smiliey, if I knew how to put one here)

JPK

JPK,
Splendid! Now if the other manufacturers will get on board we could have a mini-replay of the Ruger .416 Rigby story. What fun! I may even have, eventually, to save up enough money for a double of my own.

p.s. to add a smiley, just press colon then capitol D or close parenthesis. Like : D or : ) only leave out the space I put between them.

Old Sarge,

Thanks, I will try some smileys in this post. 450 NE No2 also told me another wat to do it so I will try both ways.

There is also a company importing Capuis double rifles and stocking them here that offers a 450/400. Can't recall the name. Hope someone who does can enlighten us. This rifle was less expensive than Searcy' I believe.

JPK

Editted: I see that both methods of adding smileys works, thanks to both of you!

JPK,

You guys are living in the past. There is no reason for a 450/400 to weigh more than 8, or at most, 8 1/2 lbs. Somehow Searcy and others have convinced themselves that the double rifle need to be just short of a Sherman tank.

If Chapuis can make a 9.3x74R at 7 lbs. please explain to me why a 450/400 needs to weigh 10 (or 9 1/2 if that ever happens) to 13 lbs.

And the 9.3 operates at higher pressures to boot.

Will,

I would really love a 450/400 at 8 1/2lbs, or even 9lbs. I think an 8 1/2 to 9lb rifle at a real 2150fps would be a great rifle. Unfortunately, I have never seen or heard of one in this weight range. The lightest ones that I've ever seen advertised went 9 1/4 to 9 1/2lbs and darn few at that.

As you note in your post, most run in the 10 to 11lb catagory, and I think that is way too much. For that much weight, it might as well be a 450 NE or a 470, 476, etc.

JPK

JPK The company importing the Chapuis 450/400 is www.evolutionarms.com
I handled one at DSC. It is on the Chapuis 375 frame.
It has 24" bbls, it is very sleek, and handled good. The Chapuis is the easiest of all doubles to scope as the rib is pre cut for scope mounts. Remove 4 screws, lift out 2 sections of rib, replace with scope mount bases, install 4 screws and presto it is done.
Options are claw and pivot.

Be sure and specify you want the rib cut for scope mounts as I have seen some Chapuis that had a solid rib.

The correct link is : http://www.evo-rifles.com/english_double.html However, there is little information there, few specifics and no prices!

Oldsarge
Thanks

Boomer,

you got to stop this 400 Whelen stuff! I absolutely do NOT have the time or resources (for the next twelve months minimum) to get involved in something like this. Still got to get a 35 Whelen
built on one of the 98's I have, there is a 38-90 just underway on a Shiloh Sharps, the 510KX... and a few other things underway like re-chambering my Whitworth 458 to 458 Lott. So S-T-O-P!!!

regards,

Rich

Not that I would care to disparage any of Boomer's projects, but the .40 Whelen was never considered a success, even by COL Whelen, himself. There simply isn't enough shoulder for proper headspace. A .375 Whelen was the largest caliber that was ever done successfully by more than one or two people. Now if Boomer can make his work, reliably, good for him. However, I would never encourage anyone to try making one. You want .40 caliber? Either get a belted case, a rimmed case or a larger case. Wah-hey!