GeorgeS: ANTI 10" Twist Poster Boy (edit)

For me the thought of going to Africa was a contributing factor. But the biggest factor was this forum. It has sparked my interest in big bores more than anything.

quote:

.....what wrong with using one as your pig or dear rifle ?? nothing, if anything I reckon they do a better job.

I use my .375 H&H for everthing. I dumped a muley doe on her nose with it this year.

A few year ago, at a local gunshow, I had the chance to pick up a really nice Weatherby Mark V in .460 Weatherby Mag. It even included 40 rounds of ammo!! But like an idiot I let it go by, and I could just kick myself!!!

500grains,
I do not think my collection of big bores will be complete until I have at least 50 from 3/8" to 1/2" bore. 50 rifles no bigger than 50 caliber. A man has got to know his limitations, and stay in touch with reality and practicality.

About a dozen each of Mauser, Winchester, CZ/BRNO, and Ruger (bolt actions and single shots), and the odd Dakota African, a Merkel double, and a BMG.

A flurry of converting Ruger MkII M77's from small bore to big bore will be required to achieve this goal. The .375 Ruger and kittens would be a great help toward this goal.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
GeorgeS: ANTI 10" Twist Poster Boy (edit)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
10" twist performance in big bores is no theory. It has been proven on game by me...

GeorgeS shoots a Winchester Custom shop .470 Capstick that has a 10" twist barrel, I will wager.

You are wrong, on both counts. Where's the iron bullafo results you where going to put out? with the penetration of the various twists, in the same media...

This concept is AT LEAST 50 years old, old as the barnes "QT" (quick twist) line of rounds. as mentioned in ackley's books. Wonder why it hasn't ever caught on, don't you?

George's 470 isn't a model 70 custom shop OR a 1x10 twist.

I'll ask, one more time, who will be the first to put a fast twist on a 470 NE Double and stick a factory load up it's pipe?

Answer? No one is that foolish.


So,
if you please, let's see how much you live up to your own statements.

Please fill in the twist of each of these rifles

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.375/.338 WinMag
.375 H&H
.375 Weatherby
.375 Weatherby
.375 Weatherby
.375 RUM
.375 RUM
.375 Lapua
.378 Wby
.416 Taylor
.416 Barnes Supreme
.416 RemMag
.416 RemMag
.416 Dakota
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
.404 Jeffery
.404 Jeffery
.423 Lapua
.45-70 (great toilet paper holder for latrine duty, slip roll over muzzle, sling rifle while squatting)
.458 WinMag
.458 WinMag
.458 Lott
.458 Lott
.450 NE 3-1/4"
.450 Barnes Supreme
.458 lapua
.450 Dakota
.470 NE
.470 Capstick
.470 Mbogo
.505 Gibbs
.500 A-Square
.510 JAB
.500 Mbogo (in the final throes of birth)
.50 BMG

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Well, GeorgeS, what is the twist rate on the 470 Capstick pictured below with your buffalo?

It worked well and it is a 1:10" twist, right?

RIGHT!


What will happen if the bubbas find out about your 10" twist 470 Capstick?

Are you brave enough to admit to it?

Sorry, RIP, you are wrong, again. My barrel has a 1-18" twist.

Hopefully, this picture will show enough detail for you to discern that the .470 (right, by Pac-Nor) has an 8-groove barrel. Pac-Nor's 8-groove .475" barrels are only available in 1-18" twist.


And lest you think a 1-18" twist cannot adequately stabilize a 500gr. bullet, here is a 3-shot group with Bridger 500gr solids.


So go peddle your spurious claims somewhere else. If you don't have the facts, STFU.

George

GeorgeS I figured he was getting "slanderous". Because I'm sure RGB would've mentioned if you had brought a 1 in 10".

As for a 1 in 10" 470 double, I would ask the experts MacD37, or Butch Searcy. Why have there knowledge here and not use it?

George,
hmm, GMTA, i reckon, my 470 AR is the same... pacnor 18twist

jeffe

George,
Forgive me for having a little spurious fun. I apologize. I was wrong on your rifle twist.
But please do not take me, yourself, or this forum too seriously.

I was mistaken in thinking your rifle was like the Winchester Custom Shop Big Five Rifle in 470 Capstick. They made that one with a 10" twist, just like the designer of the cartridge did. It was a 1:10" twist from the get go with A-Square, Art Alphin, and the rifle presented to Peter Hathaway Capstick himself.

I know how you feel, as my Merkel .470 NE has an 18" twist as best I can tell. My condolences.

My 1:10" twist shoots well too, a target if I can find it (note mine is 50 yards, you didn't say what range yours was):




Jeffe,
Don't be so silly about the 10" twist. It only changes pressure or velocity by less than 1%, and individual barrels of the same twist have more differences. This means that some 10" twist barrels will shoot faster, lower pressure, and more accurately than some 18" twist barrels in the same caliber. Characteristics of the lands and grooves and barrel internal surfaces (and chamber and throat and bullet factors!!!) are far more important than twist rate. 10" is never too much twist in a big bore hunting rifle.

Jeffe, I might question the wisdom of a 6.5" twist on a .375 to .510 caliber, but never a problem with a 10".

The twist rates I am stuck with in the list? If you insist ...

Africa did it to me no doubt about it!

For Jeffe:
TWIST RATES ADDED BELOW
I'll do the Iron Buffalo shooting with 15" twist 50 BMG, and 10" twist 500A2, when I get the chance. Some of us have to work for a living. Both will be loaded with the same bullet to the same velocity, trying to make twist the only variable. I predict that there won't be any significant difference, but if I shoot enough shots, the faster twist might show a slight edge. Just like in real life. Gotta have an edge, like the sun at your back, and the wind in your face, and a faster twist.

If he had all those going for him, Josey Wales would spit.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso

Please fill in the twist of each of these rifles

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


.375/.338 WinMag 12"
.375 H&H 12"
.375 Weatherby 12"
.375 Weatherby 12"
.375 Weatherby 12"
.375 RUM 12"
.375 RUM 12"
.375 Lapua 12"
.378 Wby 12"
.416 Taylor 14"
.416 Barnes Supreme 12"
.416 RemMag 14"
.416 RemMag 14"
.416 Dakota 12"
.416 Rigby 14"
.416 Rigby 14"
.416 Rigby 14"
.404 Jeffery 10"
.404 Jeffery 10"
.423 Lapua 10"
.45-70 (great toilet paper holder for latrine duty, slip roll over muzzle, sling rifle while squatting) Who cares!
.458 WinMag 14"
.458 WinMag 14"
.458 Lott 14"
.458 Lott 14"
.450 NE 3-1/4" 14"
.450 Barnes Supreme 12"
.458 Lapua 12"
.450 Dakota Whatever SIGARMS uses on the Magnum98
.470 NE 18"
.470 Capstick 10"
.470 Mbogo 16"
.505 Gibbs 10"
.500 A-Square 10"
.510 JAB 10"
.500 Mbogo (in the final throes of birth) 10"
.50 BMG 15"

jeffe

RIP

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
RIP

I don't think so.
500grains and Andy have some good sense also, and a few others who post here.

Glad to keep this topic alive: 10" twist on big bore hunting rifles is never wrong.
10" 18"

RIP,

Don't even try to hijack this thread. It's about why people got a big bore, not the minutiae.

George

jeffe,

I see you have learned nothing from all of our attempts to explain twist to you. Perhaps you learn better from personal experience? If so, then go out and shoot some game instead of targets . Maybe then I will stop getting PM's about the in-house "pseudo-expert".

George I see why you don`t have polls you can`t keep people on topic long enough to finish one.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
RIP,

Don't even try to hijack this thread. It's about why people got a big bore, not the minutiae.

George

Right!
Though the side trip has been enjoyable, let us hope nobody wants to include "bore envy" of the "Over 50" crowd as the looney's raison d'etre.

Back to the poll.

Dan,
a very simple question. Did you find the twist of your double rifle, on YOUR PUBLISHED data, to be insufficent ? SInce you dodge the question, as it will erode your credibility as a writer, i am certain that you did not find it to be poor, as your article (doesn't that pay for your hunting?) was just errata, as your personal position is on twist MORE than bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
jeffe,

I see you have learned nothing from all of our attempts to explain twist to you.

Dan,
ya'll haven't present a thing to me that I didn't spend MY money on, and *I* built my guns to learn.

quote:

Perhaps you learn better from personal experience?

Yes, like putting my money where my mouth is, and building three rifles to test this on, not asking somoene else to provide me with rifles to prove my own theories. Perhaps you could borrow my 550 flanged reamer, and make yourself a double rifle with different twist and SHOW us how you actually DO work.

quote:

If so, then go out and shoot some game instead of targets .

cute.. this is what is called a distractor.

quote:

Maybe then I will stop getting PM's about the in-house "pseudo-expert".

Aw, sharing PM's in public again?

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I'll do the Iron Buffalo shooting with 15" twist 50 BMG, and 10" twist 500A2, when I get the chance. ... Both will be loaded with the same bullet to the same velocity, trying to make twist the only variable. I predict that there won't be any significant difference,

and I am still waiting for your twist rates on all your "over 40" caliber rifles, that you so emphatically state MUST be 1x10 or better.

Just pointing this out, fellas, you are both recent converts, and therefore fanatics on the matter... Dan, when you sending your doubles in for a 1x10 barrel replacement?

Aren't going to? Well, since you and RIP think anything slower than 1x10 is junk, I'll give you $100.00 for your double rifle, just so you can get SOMETHING back on them, when you order a 1x10 replacement..

Not going to do that?

Then get over it, as if it's not enough for you to IMMEDIATELY fix, then it must be trivial...

like fleas biting an nyati... it's not exactly a significant issue

jeffe

Jeffe,
Read the post above addressed to you with all the twist rates that I am able to supply at the moment. They are there. Note: I got my first 10" twist 500A2 in 1998 and a second one in 1999. I wasn't converted yesterday.

Now forgive me again for "side-jacking" George's poll. Back to the poll.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
jeffe,

I see you have learned nothing from all of our attempts to explain twist to you. ... "pseudo-expert".

Dan,
My 2 year old nephew has teh same philosophy as yourself... if he states it impathically enough, and often enough, he appears to believe that will change reality...

I'll give you the same advice I give him... When you are in a hole, it's best to stop digging.


Rip,

Sorry, I missed your update. So, is that 8 out of 36 big bores that actually are 1x10? less than 25% of your rifles are of that superduper 1x10 twist? Just checking reality.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rip,

Sorry, I missed your update. So, is that 8 out of 36 big bores that actually are 1x10? less than 25% of your rifles are of that superduper 1x10 twist? Just checking reality.

jeffe

Jeffe,
It is a start. Live and learn. You can be darn sure that if I have Butch Searcy build a 500 NE for me, it will have 10" twist barrels.

I would also like stainless steel and fiberglass, if he would still do it, like he did once upon a time.

Now, back to the poll???

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
What can I say? I grew up reading Elmer Keith.

Same here...The first ZKK 601 375 H&H came to my house in 1980 only for the heck of it
Since then I have used different rifles in that caliber for moose hunting and for plains game in RSA. There will always be one in my cabinet.

Ron,
would be cool to know if Butch would build that... I do question the 1% more pressure, concept, as if you took a 1x20 twist barrel, and a 1x10 twist barrel, the starting pressure would be influenced by the VOLUME of metal that had to be engaged in the rifling.

if one relates this back to threads, the finer the threads (faster twist and surface area) the greater the thread strength due to surface area, assuming fairly constant materials properties.

I don't feel like doing the math and then putting it in a solids program, but it would stand to reason that the volume of the copper engraved in the rifling, from a 50% faster twist would be (assuming a volume of "X", as a relationship to the surface area of Y) ... something like √(1.5^3)X .. or ABOUT 1.837X ,,, nearly twice the force required to engage the rifling. That nearly doubled force WILL increase peak pressure, unless one is using a powder so fast that pp happens before the bullet is engaged (1gr of bullseye in a 25 acp?) ...

I wouldn't want to shoot a hornday factory "heavy mag" 375 or 458winmag in a 1x10 twist barrel, that's for certain.

jeffe

where does increased rotational torque on the bullet due to a 50% increase in twist (froms ay, 1:15" to 1:10") come into play?

Rich

Well, it seems the best way to do this is to calculate the extra rotational kinetic energy stored in the faster twist bullet, subtract that from the linear kinetic energy, or increase the pressure to give the same linear KE, and back into the velocity change and estimated pressure changes involved.

DonG did the calculations. Search to find the formulas and numbers.

His results agree very closely with a less than 1% change in linear kinetic energy and far smaller percentage change in velocity.

Studies I have seen attributed to military artillery research showed less than 1% change in pressure and velocity when going from 7.5 inch twist to 14 inch twist. This agrees very well with Engineer Don's calculations. His reasoning and calculations are sound.

Torque on the bullet is a non-issue with a premium bullet.

Accuracy decrement of 0.1 MOA is a non-issue with a big bore hunting rifle.

Like, if I had used an 18" twist on my 470 Capstick it would have been a 0.5 MOA rifle instead of a 0.6 MOA rifle.

GIMME A BREAK!

Back to the POLL!!!

I will not respond further to this dead horse issue sidejacking of George's poll.
Start another thread if any of you nonbelievers are still confused.

Why in the heck did CZ make that 9.3x62mm Mauser of mine with a 9.5" twist, and how is it possible that it shoots sub 0.4 MOA for three shots at 100 yards with those stubby little 232-grain bullets???