I wuznt sure if you meant parallel or alaska...

Hawaii was # 50...thus the joke

Here ya go...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


Here ya go...

Yep! That's pretty much what I'm doing during most waking hours.

This is getting too distracting for me. I gotta concentrate on the .395.

I'll just leave the .505 Gibbs for now, happy to have a good load with the .505/558gr S&H Groovy Brass FN Solid. Rich has proven the structural integrity on sand bags.

My rifle is zeroed with the 2.5X Leupold in Warne Low QD Lever rings for the CZ 550 Mag. Those rings are so low that the bolt handle barely clears the occular bell when the bolt is worked. I do not have another scope that will work with those rings. I think that is why Warne quit making them in the Low height, they still make the Medium height, which would be fine. These are good QD rings for a CZ.

A little more analysis of load with Macifej's S&H bullet of 558-grain/.505-caliber:

The A-square manual shows a 26" barrel that they claim has 1:15.98" twist, .504" grooves, .494" bore/lands, 5-groove, and .210" groove width.
525-grain A-Square Dead Tough bullet (RNSP)
A-Square brass
CCI-250 primer
132.0 grains of H-4831
2257 fps
34,500 psi: very low pressure
The CZ can handle 55,000 psi with manufacturer approval for the Gibbs case head.

I am getting 2238 fps with the heavier 558-grain S&H in a 2-inch shorter barrel of faster (1:10") twist, .505/.495 groove-land diameters, and 6-groove, using a pleasantly case filling, noncompressed 137.5 grains of the same powder.

Surely a very safe, low pressure load.

It kicks enough to be satisfying, and accuracy is plenty good enough for close range elephant or buffalo. And I could do better I am sure.

I have the cement head and can always add more rubber to the shoulder.

558-grain bullet at 2238 fps
KE = 6205 ft-lbs

AccuLoad3 recoil calculator:

11.625 pounds, 11#10oz: 10.5 pound bare rifle, plus scope and rings (add 13 oz.) and 4 ounces of extra rubber slip-on pad to get my 14.5" LOP:
7.98 lb-sec Recoil Impulse
22.1 fps Recoil Velocity
88.2 ft-lbs Recoil Energy

10.5 pounds, iron-sighted rifle:
7.98 lb-sec
24.5 fps
97.6 ft-lbs

Other calculators may be different.
I think it is less than 100 ft-lbs and less than 25 fps, by whatever method, and I can tolerate that.

I know it is gentler than a 500 A-Square rifle of the same weight with 750-grain bullet at 2100 fps using 110-grains of powder.

I like this .505 Gibbs load with H4831. Using RL-15 for the same velocity requires filler and will require higher pressures to reduce recoil energy by only about 5 ft-lbs, and reduce recoil velocity by about 1 fps.

H4831 is A-O.K. in the .505 Gibbs.

Now on to .395 developments.

Job well done RIP! The 395 begins Elk season soon so time to saddle up for the load/test/hunt rodeo!!

I'm sure we'll see lots of photo action from that party.

I believe Rich has a few tricks up his sleeve yet. He may be able to add to the 558 Grain 505 load data with his VV160 recipe.

Load Testing Part Dos:

37 degrees out today, and overcast; a dull gray winter day.

The loads were 135 grains of AA3100 and 125 and 130 grains of VVoY N160.

Three rounds of each, and the 135gr of AA3100 slapped me about half stupid. 2287, 2314, and 2302 fps for an average of 2301fps and serious recoil. No mas!

By contrast, the N160 125 grain load was easy on the shoulder. 2086, 2104, and 2108fps for an average of 2099fps

I think the step up to 130grains of N160 walked me over a threshold, it shot 2259, 2279, and 2302fps for an average of2280fps, and three shots at 100 yards in 1.552". Very good combination of accuracy and velocity. This bullet and load would be all you would need for ME and the recoil level would allow for a very fast second and third shot if called for. I think I could have fired twelve or fifteen rounds of this load into a 3" group at 100 yards from the bench.

Wednesday I will finish the N160 with 135 and 140 grain loads and start on the N165.

Rich
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Thanks again Rich for going the extra mile to get it done right. The VV loads sound interesting. Is your test rig scoped with the N160 data??

Yes, but you have to promise not to laugh....Bushnell Elite 4200 8-32X target/varmint scope. The bullet holes are easy to see at 100, even at 8X.

Rich
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those scopes can handle that recoil?

Hey whatever works!

Are you and Boomer ever gonna get me some quality photos of all this important 505 work so I can make you famous??

Any recovered slugs would be helpful as well.

Boomie, I talked to their head of R&D and he said to get after it, and when I hit 100 rounds to send them the scope back for a swap out on a new one.

Macifej,
I will send you the recovered slugs back as soon as I finish testing.

Rich
DRSS
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I'll send you a couple more 505 slugs to replace the K-9's you knocked out of your "Grille" when you lit off that 135gr of AA3100!!!

quote:

Three rounds of each, and the 135gr of AA3100 slapped me about half stupid. 2287, 2314, and 2302 fps for an average of 2301fps and serious recoil. No mas!

Rich, good work on the load development. I know how that feels (the "slapped half stupid")...my 500 A2 from the bench is a brute. 600gr at 2400fps is OK from your hind legs, but not much fun sitting.

Hope you don't mind my backhanded but good natured ribbing of ole boomie, but I can't resist mentioning that you're probably still about 15 to 20 ft-lbs and 1 or 2 fps of recoil shy of boomie's pontificated "stout but not bad" 577 BME load (750gr at 2100fps).

Cheers,
Canuck

Add me to the 475 list. And, might as well ask for a 9.3 while I'm at it.

Macifej, why not provide Rich with a complete set? Could go with the 550's for the front top teeth, spitzers for the canines, some short 475's for molars and something in 30 cal for the 2 bottom teeth. Hell, you just might have a whole new business line for the urban shooters. Can you gold plate those?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Add me to the 475 list. And, might as well ask for a 9.3 while I'm at it.

Macifej, why not provide Rich with a complete set? Could go with the 550's for the front top teeth, spitzers for the canines, some short 475's for molars and something in 30 cal for the 2 bottom teeth. Hell, you just might have a whole new business line for the urban shooters. Can you gold plate those?

They're pretty shiney out of the box and highly corrosion resistant too! Great for guys who live along the coast and use their teeth for clamming during the off season!

One guy who's testing the 505 says they're still shiney after a 2200 FPS charge down the pipe and into a sand bank too! Take a licken' and keep on Blingin'

By the way, how's the 2 bore coming along?

Can't wait to see the beast!

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Three rounds of each, and the 135gr of AA3100 slapped me about half stupid. 2287, 2314, and 2302 fps for an average of 2301fps and serious recoil. No mas!

Rich, good work on the load development. I know how that feels (the "slapped half stupid")...my 500 A2 from the bench is a brute. 600gr at 2400fps is OK from your hind legs, but not much fun sitting.

Hope you don't mind my backhanded but good natured ribbing of ole boomie, but I can't resist mentioning that you're probably still about 15 to 20 ft-lbs and 1 or 2 fps of recoil shy of boomie's pontificated "stout but not bad" 577 BME load (750gr at 2100fps).

Cheers,
Canuck

Stout but not bad was relative to full house loads of 750 @ 2400...
All in good fun I know

one might require ice..the other surgery

It's moving at about the same speed as a 2-Bore slug at 2000 yards. Sloooooooooooooooooowly. I have been doing all these new bullet designs and getting them produced and shipped - just a LITTLE bit of a balancing act. Then I have some renewed interest in a project I started a while back for a very precise VERY long range portable (barely) system, etc, etc.

Finding volunteers to do load testing on the 2-Bore has been a little ("Are you friggin' kiddin' me?") difficult. Seriously, as you can imagin getting anyone to make the components correctly and timely is the real problem but it will get done fairly soon.

Are you volunteering to do the testing Jim??

quote:

Are you volunteering to do the testing Jim??

If your recoil reduction system is as good as it sounds, I'd give it a whirl!

Recovery quicker than expected...no bruising or soreness. It is somewhat odd(?) that the N160 can equal the velocity numbers of the AA3100; 2301 VS 2280fps, and yet is soooooo much easier on my shoulder. Tomorrow I will finish up the N160 with 135 and 140 grain loads, and see what I get from the N165.

Outside, it can't make up its' mind whether to snow or rain or sleet...lovely day to read a good book.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Looking forward to seeing the next chapter in the story of the 505.

Thanks again for all your efforts as test pilot.

my signature line should also read "...Knowledge shared is a learning experience and a joy to share.

Rich
DRSS
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Recoil Impulse with units of lb-sec: Is this a good way to compare the "thrust" of a load regardless of weight of rifle?
Beam me up Scotty.

Well Doc. Bones! Scotty would probably postulate that the weight of the device is an integral variable in the equation which yields the pounds per second value.

But isn't the recoil impulse what is applied to the different weight rifles to generate the ft-lbs of recoil energy and the recoil velocity in fps? The latter two qualities of recoil are easily understood, felt, and seen. Lb-sec of impulse is not so intuitive.

How much impulse does the matter-antimatter convertor of The Star Ship Enterprise generate when it is cruising under "impulse power" at sub-light speed. Forget Warp Drive.
Where is a rocket scientist when you need one?
I gotta go study "Recoil Impulse" and pound-seconds ...

BTW, Mac, I hope the .395 TOBTHP project is alive and well.
Thanks.

That's affirmative sir! I am on standby to do the first article inspection yet this evening. Expect delivery Thursday evening or Friday AM via the yellow truck with the red stripes.

Rich,

Thanks again for doing the latest round of 505 testing today. The VV powder seems to be the best for your set-up with this bullet.

I'll get the 550 is in the works ASAP.

Yesterday...

AR members Trez Hensley drove in from the Portland area IdahoChukar2 came over from Boise, and Tom McCoy from the Yakima (WA) area got here Saturday morning. Remember his name.
IC2 brought a nice 338 mag, and his Hambrusch 500/450 3 1/4" double. The 505 Gibbs went for Stage III chronographing.

WARNING: shameless plug for the product that made all the testing enjoyable...yes, enjoyable. Tom McCoy owns Superior Shooting Products LLC. He makes the Field Armor recoil absorption/dissipation systems. I slipped on the pad I have been testing, and I promise you, felt recoil of the Macifej 558gr solid at 2400fps was like a 30-06. Muzzle rise was less than a foot on the video taping, compared to one round without it that was two feet of rise and pushed me six inches back on my back foot. Figure the ME and Recoil Energy of a 558gr bullet and 140gr of N160 for 2398fps avg for three shots in an eleven pound 505 Gibbs.
This is the first product I have ever felt merited its own thread here, but man does it do its job. I could have fired twenty rounds in two minutes from the bench with this load. Absolutely no bruising, swelling, redness, or discomfort this afternoon. None.

Load Data: VV N160 powder, and 558 grain solid by Mac.
130 grains 3-shots for an MV avg of 2280
135 grains 3-shots for an MV avg of 2351
140 grains 3-shots for an MV avg of 2398
I am going to load and shoot some with 145 grains, but I think that 140 grains may well be "THE" load with this bullet.

The N165 is too slow, 125gr was 1800fps, 135 was 1854 average. It looks better with the 715 grain cast bullet, which NEI shipped me mould for last week. Tomorrow we make and size and lube some bullets and feed that bulldog.

I will finish up the solids testing this week, if the snow is not too deep.

Hoping this is of some interest...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Alrighty then!

140.0 grains powder
2398 fps MV
11.0-pound rifle
558-grain bullet

Newtonian Free Recoil:
Impulse = 8.24 lbf-sec (Imperial Engineering Units)
Recoil Velocity = 24.6 fps
Recoil Energy = 103.7 ft-lbs

558-grain Bullet KE at 2398 fps = 7124 ft-lbs

I'll have to get the crossbolts installed in my CZ before I try that one. I've got plenty of VVN160 and about 79 of those bullets left.

Take us home Scotty, full speed ahead under impulse power.

Now I'm gonna have to get a .505 too!!

Rich - what was the C.O.L. on the 140 grain load?

Where do we buy one of Tom's Recoil Obliterators?

Macifej,

Tom McCoy 509-769-3073 cell, 509-697-4196 shop.

Ask him to forward some video of us shooting. He is redoing his website to include it. There are two separate systems. One fits a loop over the butt stock of your rifle, and has velcro on the end. You just shoulder the rifle and wiggle the pad around to suit. The other, his "bench" model, is a slip/strap on. I shoot it offhand, and the recoil reduction/dissipation is hard to believe. You will not believe it until you try it.

Good weather today, we are going to see what 145 gr of N160 will do...2500fps?

Rich
DRSS
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quote:

Good weather today, we are going to see what 145 gr of N160 will do...2500fps?

sleety day, so I went out to the "Bullet Factory" and cast bullets for my 375 and 30 caliber rifles.
Santa USPS brought my NEI 550 bullet mould yesterday afternoon so I cast a few. Out of WW they weigh 780 grains and mike 1.308" oal. The mould is a little "fat" at .553" but they size easy to .5515" and loaded rounds chamber easily.
We are supposed to have the sun in the morning.

Rich
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We're going to have one of those Aluetian Express storms starting tonight and lasting a few days. I'll be stuck indoors for a few days. Good luck at the range!

How's you weather Rich!

I'm interested to see your final ultimate results as there are some doubters over on the DR forum.

Do you think you have enough gun with the .505" 558's @ 2500 FPS??

28-degrees right now, but supposed to be clear in the morning. I can bundle up enough to go shoot.

So the guys on the DR forum are playing "Doubting Thomas"...? Trez Hensley, IdahoChukar2, and Tom McCoy were all here and saw the chrono and shot the rifle. Some people figure if they aren't physically up to the task nobody else is either. Not much you can do for somebody with a limited ability to think outside their own box. They probably believed the listed velocity on the Kynoch boxes too.

Tomorrow, if it don't snow!

Rich
DRSS
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Excellent!!

Sorry I'm not there to join in the testing!

I plan on trying one of Tom's Recoil killers too at some point.

Hey if the DR guys want to launch marshmellows down range to save their barrels - can't blame them. Personally, I can't see the point of owning something that won't eat 65,000 psi loads and hardened projectiles. Maybe I need to build a modern double too!

A crisp sunny day with a bit of a breeze. 28-degrees, and a 9mph wind...wind chill about 19-degrees. We shot the big load and survived.
2511fps average for three shots. I think that is about the upper limits. Now to dig some slugs out of the bags.

Rich
DRSS
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quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
A crisp sunny day with a bit of a breeze. 28-degrees, and a 9mph wind...wind chill about 19-degrees. We shot the big load and survived.
2511fps average for three shots. I think that is about the upper limits. Now to dig some slugs out of the bags.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

NICE!! I almost forgot what weather is like in the real world! It's 40's to 60's here and everyone is whining!

Pass that recipe along when you get a chance Rich! I'll be making up a batch of that myself at some point. The trimmed to length and loaded length would be helpful! Was this the VV160 x 145 Grain load?? Will be interesting to see what those slugs look like after a 2500 fps ride into the bank!

data enclosed: 145 grains of N160. Cases trimmed to 3.120". Bullets seated in front groove for an OAL of 3.84". Rounds feed from both sides of follower. Chamber effort is zero. Cases eject with one finger bolt lift. Primers are nearly flat but not cratered. Cases FL size easily. All in all a stout but not unreasonable at winter temperatures anyway. I could shoot ten to twelve rounds off a bench about 30 seconds apart accurately. 44"+ penetration in frozen sandbags and plywood spacers.

Rich
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