ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

uh-oh....this is the biggest can-o-worms there is on this site R.I.P....where is your steel buffalo when we need it?

quote:

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

Ok I am sold.

Hence, there is no need for smokeless powder.

QED.

Consider the source.

Garret will claim any damn thing to sell his junk. And he's found a niche market of wannabes who will believe his foolishness.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

I wonder what the trophy fee is on a bunch of wet newspapers?

Mr. Garrett must hunt with an Ipod playing "Nearer My God to Thee".

Damn, and I could have bought a .577 BPE instead of my Searcy .470.

Taken to its logical conclusion, Garrett's "research" would indicate that I should have a double rifle built in .455 Webley to avoid the detrimental velocity levels produced by Nitro Express calibers.

BTW, there's a fellow in Arizonee who also subscribes to this bullshit and he builds pimpgun single actions. He and his campgirl followers just jack each other off left and right.

quote:

The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood.

Clearly!

I'm going elephant hunting!!!!



I own a 45 ACP!

My 2 bucks worth. reason higher velocity
solid bullets penetrate little less is that the
extra velocity and energy is being transmitted to critter. The extra speed does that.
If I am facing mad grizzly do I want to
punch a nice hole all the way through with
500gr solid at 1400(45-70 speeds) or same
bullet at 2800 from my gun going 2/3 the way through, with a cavity blown in bear as big as
a beach ball, and knocking him over.4 times the
energy is better as long as bullets don't bounce off, and get inside to tear a new asshole. And if it is nrcessary to make beach ball size hole all the way through use
something like my 700.Ed.

Hell, Fjord, with the low velocity of the 45 aCp, you'll have enough penetration to shoot through the earth directly at the elephant from home and save an airline ticket.

I wonder whether the facts that (1) wet newspapers were used to test penetration vs. velocity of impact, and (2) liquids are not compressible .....are related here. Would a high-velocity impact allow the essentially liquid target adequate TIME to "open a path" for penetration??....or would the target instead react by offering an incompressible obstacle.....thus reduce penetration. The slower projectile, on the other hand, might allow a several-microsecond opportunity for the water-soaked mass to "yield". For example, try slapping the water surface with a ping-pong paddle, as hard as you possibly can. Will the paddle penetrate the water to any depth? Hardly. Then take that same paddle and swing it down onto the surface much more slowly, with alot less energy. The paddle will easily be forced below the surface. Why? Think about it.

Let's see if I understand this. I shoot a large beast with a 500 grain solid out of my 458 Win. Assume a striking velocity of 2000 fps. At some point while my bullet is mucking it's way through said large beast, it will slow to 45-70 velocity. At this point my bullet should increase it's rate of penetration to match the 45-70. I guess the laws of physics don't apply in the twilight zone.

Dave

Wow, what a relief! I was all worried about recoil and the high cost of CRF type DGR's, obviously a 45-70 Marlin is the superior weapon.

I have a question though, why is it that all the folks that ACTUALLY shoot stuff like cape buff, elephants and such keep insisting on using rifles that do things like throw 500grs at 2150fps or 400grs at 2400?

Also why did those silly Brits give up BPE calibers for Nitro? Wasn't it OBVIOUS that the BPE worked better? Was it that they were big sissys that couldn't handle a 4 bore? Oh, I remember it was bad bullets!

Yep if they'd only had good hard cast bullets instead of those primative metal jacketed slugs. Ah, give me that secret mixture of wheel weights, pig lead and sodder fluxed with a bit of Jack Daniel's... Them there elefantis don't stand a chance...

Structure your test towards proving your point of view. Pick your media, conditions and parameters to insure that your fore-drawn conclusions will win out. Ignore any field condition obtained data that might cast a shadow on your "findings".

The world IS flat and I can prove it!

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm going elephant hunting!!!!



I own a 45 ACP!

you really need that 444 revolver.....remember?

I wonder if those wet newspapers left a good blood trail? Did the bullet encounter any bone?

this is still impressive for the ol' 45-you know what. click on the link then click on the video at the bottom of that page

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

Ah--- now I'm waiting for the next plop when the Garrett lovers start to tell us that a cast lead bullet is better constructed for penetration than a solid.
you have to have low velocity and an inferior bullet to really do the job correctly.

here we go...

http://www.empresspublications.com/stuff/45-70-525.wmv

The .45-70 has had over 100 years to take Africa by storm, and has failed to do so.

You can shoot all the tame bison (I killed mine with a T/C handgun in .30-30 with 130gr. soft-points), water bottles ("total annihilation"? There were four bottles still standing after the shot ) and wet newsprint you like. Until a few hundred hunters go on safari for dangerous game and come back with glowing reports, all this .45-70 folderol is just puffery.

"Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers."

That's such a patently absurd claim, it doesn't even merit rebuttal.

George

if you want to see a impressive hit on a water jug check out the 470 mobogo vidioes

I'm convinced! The next time I go to Africa to hunt dangerous wet newspapers I will definantely take a 45/70 along.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Hence, there is no need for smokeless powder.

QED.

No, there is no need for the stuff. I've quit using it years ago.

Black works just fine thanks.
Brent

Dang, and all this time I was working on "shot-placement"......FLOL!

My physics is a little rusty, but it seems that the faster bullet is going to rapidly slow down once it enters the target and reach the "magic speed" for the best penetration some distance inside. Once it hits 1600 fps going through wet newspaper it should have the identical penetration potential as the same bullet entering the wet newspaper at 1600 fps de novo.

The whole arguement sounds like magical thinking to me. The slower bullet could have more penetration only if there genies and pixies involved, not joules.

Paul

I will concede that a given bullet may have maximum penetration at 1600fps. I don't see how you can plan all of your shots so that the bullet is going 1600fps at impact. Such absolutist claims seem to indicate a narrow perspective, lack of experience or both.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I will concede that a given bullet may have maximum penetration at 1600fps. I don't see how you can plan all of your shots so that the bullet is going 1600fps at impact. Such absolutist claims seem to indicate a narrow perspective, lack of experience or both.

What's the point? If you have enough penetration to exit the other side isn't that enough? I think folks like to argue just to argue, which is fine, but don't expect a solution then.

In the meantime, my measely old bullets going sub 1300 at the muzzle give me pass through penetration on anything up to elk at any reasonable yardage. As KitaruSapien says, all I have to do is put it in the right place. Penetration is a nonissue.

Brent

here are some tests.they are not mine so don´t kill the messenger.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

i posted that video to show that the &*-@$ is not a fluff round and i have stated that i would preferably hunt africa with a 30-06 and a 416 rigby. but the you know what has and will it kill the largest game. i want to hunt a brown bear with one some day. it is not a "stopper" round for thick skinned dangerous stuff i would rather a mbogo or the likes in my hands but that role is for the guide or p.h., it would be better to HUNT with a 375 h+h or 416 rigby when dangerous stuff is on the menue but the thing garrett was refering to was penetration. an over 500 grain .458 bullet has great s.d. and with a large meplat will penetrate sufficiently but at the 45-70 speeds will not transfer tons of energy. leave the 45-70 guys alone as long as they have a good p.h. behind them and they are not fooling themselves about what a 45-70 can do. true believers will not be convinced and english double rifle shooters will always feel superior so where is a dead horse icon when you need it. it is good forum fodder though

This seems to be a claim that is very easy to test.

Why don't some of us try it?

The only .458 I have currently is a double in 458 RCBS Magnum, so that is probably not the best rifle to test with.

Someone with a 458 Lott would be in the best position to try this...sounds like a weekend would git 'er done.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by mrwhite:
here are some tests.they are not mine so don´t kill the messenger.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

The Linebaugh tests suffer from a faulty test medium leading to radically inconsistent results. He is showing that a 25-20 outpenetrates a 30-06 or a 9.3 x 62. Something is clearly amiss...

I thought you guys would get a kick out of this article. I wonder if it has anything to do with all those 45/70 loads Garretts put out. It would be interesting if someone with a 458 Lott could load up some low to high velocity loads and do a test of there own. I should have mine by the holidays maybe i'll give it a go. I just hope there are no new comers to our sport that make a cartridge decision from this article.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
uh-oh....this is the biggest can-o-worms there is on this site R.I.P....where is your steel buffalo when we need it?

never thought i would quote myself...garrett...i have been petitioning R.I.P. on this board to try the hamerheads in his "iron buffalo" maybe if a few others clamour he might try it

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
I thought you guys would get a kick out of this article. I wonder if it has anything to do with all those 45/70 loads Garretts put out. It would be interesting if someone with a 458 Lott could load up some low to high velocity loads and do a test of there own. I should have mine by the holidays maybe i'll give it a go. I just hope there are no new comers to our sport that make a cartridge decision from this article.

make sure the bullets are garretts hard cast and tungsten though or find someone by you with a marlin lever action

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Hence, there is no need for smokeless powder.

QED.

No, there is no need for the stuff. I've quit using it years ago.

Black works just fine thanks.
Brent

How many miles per hay bale are you getting with your horse?

Since when is wet newspaper data good for anything but shooting garbage in New Orleans?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
How many miles per hay bale are you getting with your horse?

Quite a few actually, never measured it though. Gotta be better than the 14.7 I get on the F150 though.

Someday, maybe you will try the real stuff.

Brent