quote:

How many miles per hay bale are you getting with your horse?

MR

using black powder is great if you are doing the nostalgia thing. when laser rifles come out will you be using a laser to kill a cape buffalo or an elephant? i wouldnt id rather go retro

Boom Stick , a 45/70 isn't needed , we know what he was saying but he never said he used a 45/70 he said using a hornady solid at 1500fps would penatrate deeper then the same moving at 2500fps so this can all be tested in the same rifle. But lets say that he is correct and the slower bullet does penatrate deeper does that make it better for knock down power on big game. the 1500 fps bullet has 2500 foot pounds of energy, the 2500 fps bullet has 6940 foot pounds, . How can the slower bullet be a better choice for dangerous game?

Brent, boom stick:

Ride 'em cowboy.

Just please don't try to tell me that your horse can outrun my car on I-95!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Brent, boom stick:
Ride 'em cowboy.
Just please don't try to tell me that your horse can outrun my car on I-95!

He just might beat your car during rush hour, at least if what I hear about life in MA is true.

But again, who really cares what bullet penetrates the furthest if all of them penetrate completely? This seems to be such a nonissue that I find it hard to understand the ferocity that some folks generate at the mear mention of Garret bullets, .45-70s, or any of a number of topics. In the meantime, folks kill everything that walks with a .44 Mag. Not that it will out penetrate a .458 Lott, but clearly it gets the job done over and over again. Isn't that the issue here? Get the job done or not?

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
How can the slower bullet be a better choice for dangerous game?

Not to defend Garrett, but there are times when slower would be better. If pushed fast enough, any bullet will deform or break up. It is best to keep velocity in a range where it does not break up. Also, as velocity increases, so does bullet yaw which can result in poor penetration. Yaw can be counteracted with a faster twist barrel. Slower might be better than faster if the faster speed results in excessive bullet yaw.

tanoose...i agree that more energy is better my other post implied that. the subject was penetration.

the question still remains...would you hunt with a laser if remington came out with a laser rifle because it is better? or would a m70 laser suit you better why do you hunt? is it for watching animals die? food? is it not your wanting to be connected with how life was for thousands of years and the adventure within?

So tell me this if you were about to be attacked by a cape buffalo and you had a 458Lott in one hand and a 45/70 in the other which one would you hold on to ? My bet is most would drop the 45/70. Later Tanoose

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i posted that video to show that the &*-@$ is not a fluff round and i have stated that i would preferably hunt africa with a 30-06 and a 416 rigby. but the you know what has and will it kill the largest game. i want to hunt a brown bear with one some day. it is not a "stopper" round for thick skinned dangerous stuff i would rather a mbogo or the likes in my hands but that role is for the guide or p.h., it would be better to HUNT with a 375 h+h or 416 rigby when dangerous stuff is on the menue but the thing garrett was refering to was penetration. an over 500 grain .458 bullet has great s.d. and with a large meplat will penetrate sufficiently but at the 45-70 speeds will not transfer tons of energy. leave the 45-70 guys alone as long as they have a good p.h. behind them and they are not fooling themselves about what a 45-70 can do. true believers will not be convinced and english double rifle shooters will always feel superior so where is a dead horse icon when you need it. it is good forum fodder though

read my post

quote:

the question still remains...would you hunt with a laser if remington came out with a laser rifle because it is better? or would a m70 laser suit you better why do you hunt? is it for watching animals die? food? is it not your wanting to be connected with how life was for thousands of years and the adventure within?

The remington would not be a CRF laser rifle so the M70 or custom Mauser laser rifle would obviously be a better choice for DG.

Boom Stick your right we should leave it at that. I would like to ask though , we have been talking about penitration with solids i am curious as to soft points say a 405 JSP. lets talk about deer and black bear with a 45/70 , would a handloader be better off loading near factory loads of 1300fps or should he boost it up a bit. I am not talking about tring to get 2000fps but how about say 1500-1700fps

i am a not a expanding bullet school guy for the 45-70 but if you must use the north fork 350gr as fast as you can push it.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/458-350.htm

the guy at north fork is nice, cool and his stuff is the best and that is not a exageration...just do a search on north fork and see what i mean. i buy his .308-200gr for my 7600 rem in 30-06 but he also has solids and cup point solids. in the end we are all on the same team, sorry if i got a little obnoxious

Tanoose, I can't tell you which will penetrate more, but either one will go coast to coast on a black bear. Or should I say, I know for a fact that they will go coast to coast on bull elk. Bears will be easier if anything. And my bullets go about 1200 fps.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
So tell me this if you were about to be attacked by a cape buffalo and you had a 458Lott in one hand and a 45/70 in the other which one would you hold on to ? My bet is most would drop the 45/70. Later Tanoose

I would drop which ever rifle was not mine (for sure, the .458 bolt rifle would NOT be mine, so I'd drop that first. From what I've read from the DG "experts" here on AR, the only way to be sure to stop a charging cape buffalo would be to brain it - and frankly either bullet would do that (c.f. Atkinson). So I'd hold on to whatever gun I could shoot the best - which puts all bolt actions in last place in my case.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Tanoose, I can't tell you which will penetrate more, but either one will go coast to coast on a black bear. Or should I say, I know for a fact that they will go coast to coast on bull elk. Bears will be easier if anything. And my bullets go about 1200 fps.

Brent

brent...are you another guy who can't keep a north fork inside an animal a recovered north fork is an endangered species

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

(snip)
In the meantime, folks kill everything that walks with a .44 Mag. Not that it will out penetrate a .458 Lott, but clearly it gets the job done over and over again. Isn't that the issue here? Get the job done or not?

Brent

Funny,

I have an aquantance that has taken both an Alaskan moose, and an African cape buff with a 44 mag, not interntet pontificating but real world hunting and killing animals.

shooting hardcast bullets, 300 gr @ 1400 fps. He was underwelmed at the performance on both animals.

Certainly a bullet that penetrates sufficiently will kill any animal, eventually. The trouble is, when hunting dangerous game, you want eventually to be a very short period of time!

To say because certain marginally effective weapons have worked in limited situations, and failed or been innefective in others, does not make them the best tool for the job.

You can cut a 2X4 with a coping saw, but odds are you'd prefer a skillsaw.

paul...i'd rather be pushing a 600 or 700 grainer out of the 500s.w. @ 1300 fps with a w.f.n. but i'd be backed up with a p.h. with a nice stopper

Boomstick, I wouldn't know a north fork from a south fork movie star. I'm a bit more fundamental than that and make my own: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.html

Paul H, 300 gr is pretty pathetic for a rifle bullet - I haven't used less than 450 in a .45 caliber rifle, but what the heck.

As for what's best - I submit that charging DGs are supposed to be killed with a CNS hit. This is AR expert's opinion. Caliber/penetration/whatever is going to be pretty trivial relative to shot placement. Maybe that's your buddy's problem.

If I wanted the best stopper, I'd argue an RPG is far superior. But it would hardly be sporting. So, somewhere between spear and RPG I draw a line. For me that's bp cartridge rifles. For others, it's 600 OKs or whatever. In the meantime, penetration to the CNS of a charging buffalo is going to happen with a properly places .45-70 bullet and the critter will be just as dead as with the same shot from a .458 Lott or whatever.

So, how much penetration do you need?

Brent

alright ...brent, you are no lightweight (pun intended)

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
penetration to the CNS of a charging buffalo is going to happen with a properly places .45-70 bullet

What makes you think that?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
penetration to the CNS of a charging buffalo is going to happen with a properly places .45-70 bullet

What makes you think that?

How far is it into a buffalo's skull? 4 ft? probably not. What makes you think it won't?

I defer to Atkinson anyway. Whatever he says is true so it must be.

Brent

How many charging cape buffalo have been shot up the snout with a 45-70 with a cast lead bullet (or similar ballistics - 450 Martini Henry), where the bullet made it through the skull, did not deflect on the angled skull bone, and hit the brain?

Can anyone identify a single instance of this?

time to buy a cow head for some tests...i predict the cow head loses

As many theorists have learned, when theory meets reality . . . reality always wins.

And when reality is a pissed-off buff . . . you are welcome to your theory, but just leave enough money behind so that your survivors don't have to go out of pocket for your funeral.

this is why there are p.h.'s

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
this is why there are p.h.'s

The point of hunting Cape buffalo and elephants is so that YOU kill it, not the PH.

Of course, 99% of the folks who advocate rounds like the .45-70 will never use it on Cape buffalo and elephants.

George

i would not mind being that %1 but as i have stated before...my first choice for africa would be the 30-06 and 416 rigby but if the first or second shot did not work there is a few more where that came from...the good thing about a fast acting lever action. if life works out o.k. i would own a couple nice double rifles though, untill then i will have african dreams truth be told i dont have a strong desire to kill a cape buff but i would do it for the hunt and the experience of it. i have my heart more set on kudu lion warthogs gemsbok ect and i am unsure about ele...but i am sure that is t.m.i. right now i am getting focused and ready for an alaska hunt first

Why defend the 45-70?

Anybody that drop $12,000+ on a safari can also afford to spend $1000 on a useable big game rifle. Why not have the best tools available for the trip of a lifetime?

I still don't understand the logic of the armchair ballisticians who keep saying you can kill buffalo, bears, elephants, and dragons with knives and slingshots so therefore obviously a good centerfire cartridge shooting a big bullet aught to work just fine? Right? In reality, there are a lot of people who just love to argue and a great many more who probably never get out from in front of the computer. Among them, those who proclaim the usefulness of the underpowered cartridges they own, are probably mostly tight-asses who'll never go on a big hunt and never actually have a need for anything bigger. For those who do get off the couch and go on the hunts, take whatever you wish; its your money.

Me personally...I've learned the value of a dollar and understand that to properly enjoy what little time I have to do what I want, sometimes I have to cough up the dough and buy what I really need to properly enjoy the opportunity instead of trying to make do with something less. Life's too short; why cheat yourself? Use the proper tools...

Tex

Garrett makes good bullets, but he seems not to understand what (I assume) everyone here knows: flat-nosed bullets outpenetrate round nosed ones. Period.

The "Hornady Solid" is a RN design. It might penetrate further if fired slower, due to stabilization in the target. And I have little doubt that Mr. Garrett's Hammerheads will outpenetrate a Lott firing RN bullets. But put a Bridger or Northfork FN solid in a Lott, and compare that to the Garrett load-- I have little doubt the .45-70 is going to lose.

The problem here is that it's tough to compare apples-to-apples. You can't try the monometals in the .45-70 due to lack of case capacity, and you can't run the lead bullets in the full-powered Lott (well, I can't-- maybe someone else knows enough about lead bullets to pull it off). You could, however, load a cartridge up to ".45-70" velocity using a monometal FN in the Lott, and compare penetration there against the full-power load. But why bother? This is all just silly.

Any of the FN solids work dramatically better than any RN design. RN solids' day has passed.

The .45-70 sure is a fun gun, but I won't be taking it to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by pertinax:

The "Hornady Solid" is a RN design. It might penetrate further if fired slower, due to stabilization in the target.

Art Alphin found the solution to this problem: a faster barrel twist rate.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
this is why there are p.h.'s

Why do you want to endanger the PH or trackers so you can use a questionable weapon? When do we start to take responsibility for our actions?

465H&H

good point...i would want a good p.h. behind me and i would have to prove my shooting ability so he would now how to react in case things went south. but like i said many times i would do africa with a 30-06 and a 416 rigby i will save my guide gun for brown bear in alaska and a big american bison ect