Published by Mauritz Coetzee in Game & Hunt - August 2011.

570 grain Wdl SN @ 2,150 fps shot into a sand bank by neels Ferreira in his 500 NE 3".
It showed little penetration and was easily recovered. It turned inside out.



Then there is another photo in the same article "Designing a Bullet" from Coenrad van der Westhuizen that shot a blesbuck with his 470 NE using a 500 gr Wdl Soft doing the same thing - turnibg inside out. It was a frontal shot at 60 meters and stopped in the stomach - weight retention was 333 gr or 66.6%

The impact force seem too much for the soft-nosed bullet.

Warrior

Thats what a soft point is supposed to do.

I take it the sandbank and the blesbok were both dead ?

i got "yelled" at for thinking i'd get any results from shooting sand, on ar recently. i had nil penetration into loose sand..

on woodleigh 570gr .510 softs... the are SUPER soft
gresome pic of head shot with 500AR piggie

warning, its gresome ... 570 woodie at 2200 range, about EIGHT FEET

.585 wood 750, 2300 mv, 2250 est impact, eland, range 60 or so yards, broke right shoulder, pass through, stuck in other side laying against left leg (unbroken)

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
I take it the sandbank and the blesbok were both dead ?

Code4,

Bullet weight of 500 to 570 grains is meant for dangerous game as its prime application.

The question is what would happen on a buffalo when the bullet over expands, giving shallow penetration, don't reach the vitals, and the buffalo runs into the tall reeds after the herd, waiting for you to track him in terrain that you are not adept to?

http://youtu.be/Kz0yU0F3EhI

Warrior

I have shot too many buffalo with Woodleigh bullets from the 9.3x62 to the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery's and have never had a failure...

Buffalo are not made of sand, flesh and blood do not compact like sand..You will get less penetration and more expansion in sand with any bullet has been my experience..

I suspect you can compare bullet integrity in sand, by which one penetrates the best, but don't expect any of them to penetrate like you would get in live or even dead flesh.

Penetration tests in ANY media is a long ways from flesh and bone, so all you can do is compare, and even then the results are always questionable..

The only true test of a bullet IMO is the time proven approach, a lot of dead buffalo, not just from the ones I have shot, but over the years, and Woodleigh has a fantastic reputation.

I will however assure you the bullet you are using at the velocity you quote will kill your buffalo every time and do it quickly in 99.9% of the cases.

Some postings seen here on AR of Woodleighs over expanding - seems to be a general occurence with the big-bore bullets:-





Over expansion is the greatest inhibitor of penetration.
Expansion of of over 2.5x will progressively cause shallower penetration.
Now look at the left bullet above that expanded 1.5" or 38.1 mm.
The bore of the bullet is .458" or 11.6 mm.
This represents an expansion of 3.3 times original caliber.
This is not a bullet I would choose for buffalo as the odds are not in my favour.

Warrior

I would much rather pick a bullet that would arrest expansion at some point to prevent serious over expansion for deeper penetration such as Swift A-Frames, NF's or the TSX bullet.



Warrior

or, of course, GS customs ?

Warrior:

I always find it ironic when guys post pictures of recovered bullets and then talk about how the bullet failed.

I wouldn't choose it for buffalo either. It's just to light for that task. How about switching to a 500 grain bullet and then keeping it at Woodleigh's recommended impact velocity? I agree with Ray. Woodleigh makes fine bullets.

900gr Woody SP from the 600 Overkill @ 2150 after about >3' of water & plastic :-)

The essence of the matter here is penetration ability on large DG where angled shots has to be taken many a time, and so Mo/Xsa should be our guide here. Momentum is in effect the force that we apply and Xsa (progressive expansion of diameter) becomes the inhibitor of penetration (meeting with more drag as frontal area of the bullet is getting bigger):-


The force or Momentum:

470 NE - 500 gr bullet @ 2,100 fps = 150 Lbs/Ft-sec
500 NE - 570 gr bullet @ 2,150 fps = 175 Lbs/Ft-sec
600 OK - 900 gr bullet @ 2,150 fps = 276 Lbs/Ft-sec

So, more force the more the penetration.
Now it depend on the size of bullet expansion that would apply the brakes (Xsa)
Bullet design comes into play at which stage the expansion will be arrested.

We really need to this issue in perspecive of the key variables at work.

Warrior

Thats why a monolithic Copper cup point bore-rider .600Ok bullet weighing 900 grs at 2300-2400fps ( not 2150fps-wimpy load) is nearly ideal in my opinion. You get stem to stern penetration( yes even on an ELE) starting with a 5/8 hole and wind up around .8-1" coming out the other side. The visual effect is basically like hitting them with a BIG HAMMER. Over-penetration problem easily solved by not shooting till your sure nothing is on the other side.-Rob

Take a look at some relative comparisons of some DG cartridges often used on buffalo. We assume we use a non-deforming solid that will keep its original diameter on impact.

Cartridge ------- Dia ---- BW --- Vel ----- Mo -------- Xsa ------- Mo/Xsa
9,3x62 mm --- .366---- 286 --- 2,300 ---- 94.0 --- 0.13396 ----701.5
375 H&H ------ .375 --- 300 --- 2,530 ---108.4 --- 0.14063 ---- 771.0
416 Rigby ---- .416 --- 400 --- 2,415 --- 138.0 --- 0.17306 ---- 797.4
500 NE -------- .510 --- 570 --- 2,150 --- 175.1 --- 0.26010 ---- 673.1

When the bullet expands to double diameter all cartridges's relative index will drop drastically, just as in real life that a solid can outpenetrate a soft 3 to 4 times easily. Michael has also shown a similar trend in the tests that he has done even though it does not mimic flesh, but the trend is there too - roughly 15" vs 60" easily, and depending on size of meplat even more in some cases.

The above is just a rough guide when we apply the same criteria across the board using the very same bullet with the same properties and mass distribution.

Warrior

Field comparisons of various expanding bullets:-

http://www.northforkbullets.co...Hunter%20Article.pdf

Warrior

First of all---All Woodleigh Softs are NOT created Equal!

I have used, and tested many of the big bore Woodleigh Softs in many various calibers and weights. I have some favorite Woodleighs for certain jobs, or I used to before the various NonCons I now use. A few of these are the 500 gr 458 Woodleigh Soft, run at the muzzle from 2100 to 2250 fps max. Have used these on buffalo with great success, and they do not flatten like some of the bullets shown above. Another is the .416 340 Woodleigh run at 2400-2500 fps, not a buffalo bullet, but more for thin skinned DG, bear, lion, plains game and such. And there are more as well.

You have to know how each Woodleigh is going to do at different velocities. You can't assume 1 will equal the other, as they do not. There is a huge difference between the 416 340 Woodleigh and the 400 gr 458 Woodleigh, although designed for nearly the same mission.

The photo above shows my 458 400 Woodleigh I used many years ago in both 458 Winchester and 458 Lott. Obviously I ran it too fast, clearly showed this to me in test work, and in the field as well. Penetration severely limited at this velocity. Yep, dead critters no doubt, but had this been a lion or bear and possibly a bad angle, I might not have made it to the vitals. Consequently after some field work with the Lott, I slowed the muzzle velocity down to 2150 fps, and the bullet performs much better, and penetration is deeper, while still expanding and inflicting a lot of trauma in the process.

A few years ago I had decided to use this 400 Woodleigh in one of my 458 B&Ms for bear. While the hunt fell thru in the end, here is the test work at 2 different velocities. I loaded up for the lower velocity to use on the hunt.






Penetration increases as velocity drops. Probably about the best operating velocity for this bullet is starting off with a muzzle velocity of around 2000 fps.


Now the 416 340 Woodleigh is a different animal. Expansion is still a lot, but only back about 1/2 the length of the bullet. Penetration adequate for thin skinned animals, even at some angle shots. And velocity very high for a Woodleigh.

As tested in the test medium











Since that excursion I slowed the bullet down to around 2400 fps in the 416 B&M for better penetration and performance.

While I have not used these in the field, the .416 400 Soft would make a fine buffalo bullet.


As would the 458 550 Woodleigh Soft



Back in 2002 I recall, I used the 500 gr Woodleigh Soft in a 458 Lott for a mighty fine buffalo in Zimbabwe. For some reason I did not recover the animal tissue bullet, but it tested like this in the 458 Lott. Absolute max velocity I would want to run this bullet for buffalo, but it would be a hammer of a soft for lion and bear.


Here is a couple of Woodleighs in a 600 OK


In 2009 I tested and used the 500 Woodleigh on Australian Buffalo in my 458 B&M. Results were excellent at 458 B&M Velocities.




Velocity is the key with most all bullets. It's your job as a hunter and shooter to know the limitations of what you are using and to apply those limitations correctly to the game you are after, and to the mission in which you wish to embark upon! If you do not do this, then you are subject to potential failure!

Michael

A few more Woodleighs I have tested and worked with over the years.





From above you can see in .510 caliber these are two different animals, both over velocity for the bullet, but I like the 535 gr much better, slow it down to 2150 to 2200 fps and performance would be much better. The 600 would need to be slowed down to 2100 fps or less actually.

This would be a favorite choice of mine if I was still going out with a 45/70 at 1850 fps or so. This bullet came along too late for me to take to the field and try, but I have no doubts as to how it would perform on bears and such.





A 577 Nitro Woodleigh



Michael

Michael458- I've gotten 900 gr woodleighs to literally turn into smokin balls of lead at 2300 fps into solid dried oak. Penetration is usually on the order of 18-22 inches. Thats what really made me want to design solid copper bullets.-Rob

Rob

Oh no doubt about it. As hard as Oak is, and 2300 fps--guaranteed to be a smoking ball of lead. As you see from above, that 900 Woodleigh is not much good above 1600 fps or so at impact. Big difference in penetration with a couple hundred fps.

Can't get any better than the mono solids and NonCons. I need to send you a box of the BBW#13 Solids and NonCons--PM me an address please.

Michael

Is now a good time to point out that Woodleigh offer two types of expanding bullet?

They have the SP & the PSP and they print recommended terminal velocity figures on each and every box.

From my experience, if you use the correct type of bullet on the correct animal at the correct speed and place said bullet in the correct spot, they work just tickety boo!

If you work to the correct criteria, they'll do as advertised time after time after time and I've certainly never had one or seen one fail under those circumstances.

FWIW,

My experiences with the larger Woodleighs have been pretty spotty as well.

I switched to North Forks and Swifts in my 416s the day I had to take a follow-up shot on an 800 pound "meat" bison. A friend had shot his 45/70 into a leg, and the cow bison started to canter away.

I put a 410 grain Woodleigh (Federal ammunition) just between the last rib (and second to last rib) on the left to rake on through the chest (obviously the exact point of impact was a matter of luck, but it did hit between the ribs). The entrancehole was the size of my fist, and the bullet looked like a penny placed on the railroad tracks.

It was mesmerizing watching 1/2 liter of blood pump out the entrance wound for the bison's last eight heart beats, but it chilled me; what if I had shot on the point of a shoulder with a cape buffalo - lawndart patty and blood would all that was left of me.

The bullet was going 2,34 fps.

For a BPE - nothing finer. My example is purely anecdotal with an n=1. It is however, pretty illustrative.

L/D

Woodleigh's web page lists a 400gr .416" Protected Point.

Protected Point

It's in the grid at the bottom but I've never found a source for them. Does anyone know of a source (or even if they exist)?

Rick,

Why not contact Woodleigh & ask for contact details of your nearest stockist?

Even if they don't have them on the shelf, I'm sure they'll order them in for you.

Lawndart,

Were you using SP or PSP and I'd also suggest that if you were using factory loaded ammo there's (at least) as good a chance the load was faulty as the bullet itself.

Lawndart

Depends on when you shot the 416 and the load used.


The 416 bullets (jackets) were toughened up a few years ago because people were pushing them faster and faster and over the original English velocities (actual, not paper).


And in regards to a sand bank (or clay or any dirt), I do not consider it a good test medium and I've fired 505 Gibbs, 500 Nitro into it and it didn't get far but I didn't expect it to.

Yet I shot the same gun / bullets into buffalo a short time later and no problems.

.

I have shot and recovered Woodleigh Softs from cape buff and plains game with my 450 No2, 480gr, my 450/400 3 1/4", 400gr, and my 9,3x74R, 286gr.
All the recoved bullets looked perfect.

With the 450 No2 I have shot the same game with the 500gr Swift A Frame, and I mean the same animal and recovered both from cape buff and eland.

I have recovered Woodleigh Softs and Nosler Partitions from the same game out of my 9,3x74R as well.

I think Woodleigh Softs are one of the best softs on the planet.

The Big bore's are designed for Nitro Express velocities, just do not over drive them.

Several major reloaders I know hate the woodleigh bullets and say they are pure crap and won't hold up. I also know that a lot of guys use them and love them. So its kind of take your pick.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
FWIW,

My experiences with the larger Woodleighs have been pretty spotty as well.

L/D

Lawndart and others. When you say from "My experiences", how many are we talking about - that is how many Woodleigh Bullets (and others) have you fired into big Game animals ? Not paper, not sand banks, not water jugs but flesh and bone animals.

I would just be interested to know, that's all.

.

.

Have to agree wholeheartedly with N E 450 No2.

As long as they are kept inside their recommended velocity limits, Woodleighs will get the job done.

The cores stick to the jackets and peel back uniformly, and as a result the bullets give excellent penetration.

Even on hard-assed, hard-packed sand banks at 4-500 fps faster than recommended, I have found that they hold together, and simply turn inside out.

Nowadays, I prefer Barnes TSX bullets, but that's only because I insist on driving mine faster than Woodleighs can handle.

For the traditional DR calibers, and for a lot of others, the Woodleighs are more than equal to the task.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Some postings seen here on AR of Woodleighs over expanding - seems to be a general occurence with the big-bore bullets:-



Uploaded with ImageShack.us[Warrior

Do bear in mind that these two were shot at 300fps ABOVE recommended velocity. They still held together.

This photo depicts both the loss of bullet weight and expanding frontal area as the bullet mushrooms to a point when the petals get folded almost close and flush with the shank of the bullet. Both loss of bullet weight and expansion of diameter will cause the loss of penetration depth. Again interesting to see how ideal the impact velocity can be at 2100 fps. Drag in target is lower, mushroom not over expanded, minimal weight loss for the best penetration as a trade-off with at least double caliber expansion.

Note: The Sirocco bullet is a deer bullet and not a DG bullet, and it is posted purely as an illustration of the effect of impact velocities.
The competing bullets in this class are the 3 plastic tipped bullets. ie, Scirocco, Interbond, and Accubond.



Warrior

Over expansion? every one of the bullets pictured made it to the off side skin is my bet. and they did a hell of a lot of damage, if you don't like all those well expanded bullets then use solids..

I'm sure I have shot near a hundred buffalo with Woodleigh bullets without a single disaster. I field tested the 350 gr Woodleigh .375 bullet, and the 450 gr. 416 Bullet on a hell of a lot of buffalo, and I shot into many dead buffalo in the process, I tried to tear them up. I sent some those bullets to Geoff..I also was instrmental in the development of those bullets. I wanted the big round nose and Geoff wanted the PP, (I'm a nostalgic you know) so he made both and sent me a ton of bullets to test...

My finding were the RN were perfect to expand big and stop on off side skin most of the time the size of a quarter with those ragged long propellers that rip and cut and destroy tissue like a bomb going off inside those bulls, the PP were considerably tougher and knocked big holes out the off side as a rule, but did not do the damage of the RN as one should expect, however both leave blood trails on the grass that will ruin your pants as you walk through it behind your bull..

Of all the bullets I have used on Buffalo I have a few favorites, Woodleighs, GS Customs, and North Fork, (especially the cup point) and I have had better luck with them than I have had with any of the other popular bullets.
I have to bow to Geoffs wisdom over mine as the Woodleigh PP is probably one of the great buffalo bullets of all time..Another bullet that I have used, although not extensively, on buffalo is the 400 gr. Nosler partition, and its a dandy bullet if a handfull of buffalo tell one anything, it usually punches big bloody holes through big bulls it seems. It's probably not for herd hunting as it really penetrates, but it's absolutly awesome on dagga boys and thoes Noslers give complete penetration whine off to Dar Es Salaam or parts unknown.

Actually, most of todays bullets work just fine if you just allow them to operate at a proper velocity. woodleighs are velocity specific, always have been, but some folks insist on pushing them beyond thier barrier, and in fact some have no idea that they are velocity specific or just don't care.

One thing I have concluded over the years is even on this side of the continent its usually best to slow a bullet down as opposed to speed it up..Bullet integrity is 50% of a clean kill. The other 50% is bullet placement. I won't swear to those percentages but bet they work.

quote:

Actually, most of todays bullets work just fine if you just allow them to operate at a proper velocity. woodleighs are velocity specific, always have been, but some folks insist on pushing them beyond thier barrier, and in fact some have no idea that they are velocity specific or just don't care.

Ray,

As mentioned in my 1st post, Coenrad van der Westhuizen that shot a blesbuck with his 470 NE using a 500 gr Wdl Soft at the standard velocity as loaded by Norma at 2,100 fps over expanded and turned inside out - and it was after the bullet slowed down and impacted at 60 meters.

Warrior

Warrior:

Don't use the Woodleighs. Everybody else loves them and Ray is right, they are velocity specific. As long as you stay within the velocity window, they work perfectly. Stop shooting sand and find a bison, buffalo, or pig to shoot.

Damn, those 405 grain Woodleighs that Michael shot in his 45-70 look good.

"Designing a bullet" and then showing a bullet fired into a sand bank to discredit it. I think they need to work out what is what before posting pics like that.

Can you post the pictures of the other bullet from the article.

I just find it hard to believe it turned inside out.

Like others, I have fired heaps of 500 Nitro's into buffalo and not had a problem (as well as a fair few other bullet calibres from 338 upwards to 505 Gibbs).


.

500N,

The photo of the other bullet (Conrad's 500 gr WdL SN) is rather small and not clear in the article that was pubblished. I will request the original photo taken by camera, and then post it for you. Then we can see much better.

I agree the bullet retrieved in the sand is not the norm, we need to review those retrieved from animals in particular from buffalo.

The concern the author of the article is with big-bore bullets that over expand on dangerous game. The bigger bore bullets such as the 500 and 570 grainers have relatively speaking more lead and less copper and so seem to over expand more easily and the lead tip is also more exposed and so open up violently on impact as the front tip has no copper to delay the opening up of the bullet. Also the force and energy of big bores are more. His concern is also when angled shots has to be taken rather than 90 degree side-on shots when deeper penetration is required.

Generally if a bullet expands more than 2.5x it starts to impair penetration and by the time when it gets to 3x times shallow penetration is indeed guaranteed.

Warrior

Sharing some of my experience with you with regard to our local CLAW bullet:

I mentioned in a previous post that bullet design can play havoc with a bullet's performance. The local Claw bullet features a bonded core (pure lead) with pure 1-mm thick copper jackets. They are available in RN and Spitzer configuration. The Claw RN bullet is an example of when a particular design does not work as intended - i.e. to provide straight-line penetration, retain most of its weight, does not loose petals and open up without over-expanding, as that would impair penetration.

3 animals were shot with a 375 H&H, using the Claw 300 gr RN (round nose) bullet. Muzzle velocity was down loaded to 2,250 fps and the distance was about 60 paces for the Gemsbok and 25 paces for the warthog. Penetration was shallow because of over expansion and the 2 gemsbok had to take multiple shots each, except for the warthog. The first 3 bullets (from left to right) in the photo were shot and retrieved from the animals as indicated. Retrieved .375 Claw bullets. The 4 th bullet merely show a sectioned view of a .458/500 gr Claw RN bullet. The last bullet is a Barnes-X retrieved from a sand bank that was a backstop at the range.

Penetration was shallow ( because of over expansion) and the 2 gemsbok had to take multiple shots each, except for the warthog. The picture shows the following:

Retrieved bullets, from left to right :-

1) 375 Claw - Gemsbok 1 - 50% weight retention - 2.6x expansion

2) 375 Claw - Gemsbok 2 - 76% weight retention - 3.2x expansion

3) 375 Claw - Warthog - 41% weight retention - 2.0x expansion & all petals gone

4) 458 Claw - 500 gr - sectioned view to show 1-mm wall thickness (By comparison Rhino features a 2.8 mm thick wall)

5) 458 Rhino - 360 gr - 97.5% weight retention - 1.9 x diameter expansion, shot into a sand wall at 11 paces with a 45-70 Government @ 1,750 Fps)

6) .375 Barnes-X - 300 gr - 90.3% weight retention - 2.0 x diameter expansion shot into a sand wall at 100 paces - MV = 2, 330 fps, impacting at 2,048 fps.)

The lesson here is that expansion must be arrested at some point as overexpansion inhibits deep penetration (3.2 x ) and a good weight retention alone (76%) is not sufficient to be effective. Construction is important to ensure that the bullet opens up in a controlled way, progressively it must become stiffer (to cater for higher impact velocities) and it must retain its petals to cut a long and wide wound track.

It is clear that opening at the tip of the bullet is too small, and the curvature is such that the bullet flattens instead of opening up and this is aided by the inbuilt weakness of the cannelure as it folds there; with the result that it squeezes some lead out there as it separates and the folding takes place almost to be as flat as a penny . The same bullet in Semi-Spitzer form does not deform in this way. Thicken the walls up to 2-mm in the Spitzer and the right balance was achieved and its performance was absolutely magnificent. The lesson here is that expansion must be arrested at some point, as over-expansion inhibits deep penetration. Despite the Claw bullet's fairly good weight retention of 76%, its over-expansion to 3.2 times of original diameter, rendered it ineffective. Construction must be such that the bullet opens up in a controlled way; progressively it must become stiffer to cater for higher impact velocities, and it must retain its petals.



Warrior

"Also the force and energy of big bores are more. "

Agreed, but Woodleigh's are designed for what they are shot out of.

I am not sure they open up more violently unless they are pushed faster. They definately open up easier than PP's but not violently IMHO. I did the direct comparison testing of the first PP's versus SN (from my 505 Gibbs) which determined the Rec Imp Velocity.

The other factor I don't think you mentioned that has a bearing on the equation is bullet weight. A heavier bullet, even if it opens up often has the weight to push through.

.

quote:

A heavier bullet, even if it opens up often has the weight to push through.

500N

This is detremined by the ratio of Mo/Xsa regardless of weight - in other words, the force aplied over the area. The 'force' being the momentum value of the bullet (weight x velocity). If the Xsa gets too big penetration suffers. That is why a Solid can generally penetrate 3 to 4 times deeper than a Soft.

Warrior

OK, when I was testing the PP bullets in 9.3, using my 9.3x64 as it was the only 9.3 available that could push the envelope in terms of velocity 9ie we needed to go past what was "normal" to determine the upper end of the RIV.

Concentrating on only the 320gn bullets, I fired both RN and PP bullets at low, medium and high velocity (all chronographed before I went so we knew exactly what they were doing).

It didn't matter whether I was close at high velocity (which made the PP and RN open up with of course th RN open up even more, the bullet weight just kept pushing them through, the result being that I got bugger all recoeveries and near the end we had to manufature some more shots to mak sure I did get them.

Now we know they expanded really well because of the exit hole, but the extra bullet weight made all the difference.

And I killed a fair few Buffalo that week - I think I shot 20 or so
plus a few pigs.

This (and other reasons) is why if I have a choice of bullet weight, I tend to go for the heavier weight as it allows me to "punch through" from any angle if needed.

So yes, I understand your formula but on most side shots, even if the bullet misses bone, hits with velocity (not even over the REV) and opens up really quickly, the bullet still IMHO seems to punch through to the other side - and do a hell of a lot of damage as it does (ie a very ragged wound channel that bleeds a lot).

Anyway, just my HO. Good discussion.

.

Fatboy404 has posted these before and they are from his 375 H&H.
They are a mixture of 300 grain Woodleigh PP's & SN's and all were recovered from pigs & goats.



Warrior