quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
Any recovered bullet that has caused the fairly rapid death of an animal must be considered to have "performed well" don't you think? Surely discussing how one recovered bullet may have performed better than another is really just splitting hairs! They both achieved the desired end result after all!

I'd actually dispute that statement.

Firstly, I don't think the bullet necessarily has to be recovered to be considered to have performed well (or otherwise) and secondly, whether recovered or not a bullet could be considered to have failed if there is evidence it hasn't performed as it should.

An example of the latter is that (a few years ago) I had no end of trouble with the only box of Rhino expanding bullets I bought. (or ever will buy).

firstly, they were oversized and even after I'd cured that problem with the gently application of a lathe, not one of these expanding bullets expanded at all and in fact performed like mono solids and an example of that was a client shot a running (previously wounded) buff up the arse with one and the expanding bullet came out between the animals nostrils and the exit hole was the same size as the entry hole.

To me, that proves flawless and fabulous penetration from the (.404 Jeffery) rifle but piss poor performance from the expanding bullet. - I should add that every bullet in that damn box failed to expand at all. I'm not suggesting ALL Rhino bullets are crap just that the box I used were and that's more than enough to put me off of ever using them again.

I agree one 100% percent with Shakari. If a bullet does not perform as expected or intended it is a failure even though we have a dead animal. I have also seen some of the older generation bullets, such as the 404 Rhino bullets that Alf bought, that did not open. Their tips were not weakened by the square punch that is being used today. I have seen 458 bullets that killed buffalo but it had lost all its petals - seen it in an email from Doctari. There was another picture the other day on a local gun forum where a Rhino bullet did not open, except for a tiny bit - can only assume it skipped the annealing process at the end of manufacture before moly-coating. I fed this back to the manufacturer. The point is simply, we want it better, only because it can be made better, and we must learn from evidence coming in. It is for us, the hunters, to give the feedback to the manufacturers so they can improve.

I have seen a Swift A-Frame flattened on a buffalo's shoulder at high impact velocity by a super magnum, and on the other end of the spectrum sterling performance when the bullet is slowed down or used in slower cartridge. It was fired at very close range from a .375 Remington Ultra Mag @ app. 2,760 fps.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...861099831#3861099831

Impact velocity rules ... and if we abuse the bullet, we should not blame the manudfacturer, as it is then self-inflicted even if it happened unintentionally or by pure ignorance.

And then we also get sterling performance when a bullet opens up in a controlled way to 2.2 to 2.3 times maintaining all it petals for a excellent terminal effect - some Rhinos shot from a 35 Whelen.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...051021931#1051021931

Warrior

Ok, fair enough, you both (Warrior and Shakari) have valid points there.

Warrior,
I see no conflict at all in my statement, you must have perceived something there or misunderstood my post...

I do see some disagreement between me and Ganyanas experience his did not expand properly perhaps??, and IMO the 320 gr. bullet is not soft, perhaps a bit tougher as they worked fine for me in my souped up 9.3x62. I can send you pictures to your email but not on AR, I have had many bullets on AR over the years, so the Woodleighs are already up someplace in the archives of AR..Folks have been good about doing that for me, but the thread is already full of expanded Woodleighs and that has not satisfied you...but I have literally hundreds of pictures of expanded bullets, many of which are Woodeighs in my photo file. I don't have that skill, but pictures don't mean much anyone can come up with pictures to slant a conversation. But if you wish I can sure clog up your computer with pictures of expanded bullets, and solids of many brands. I'm an old time bullet digger, I get in amongst the guts and gore and find most of them.

Another thing that is seldom discussed is with any given bullet company and with different calibers and weights some of the bullets they produce work great while in many cases others of a different caliber or even weight do not..I have seen this many times and because of this I choose my bullets in each caliber and don't dump all bullets in one catagory...A prime example of this the 250 gr. Sierra .375 bullet, it has never failed me and its a local Idaho favorite for elk, all expand perfectly it appears, but I have seen a number of 30 calibers sierras that turned inside out. I have seen Barnes Bullets fail to expand in my 300 H&H but they work like a charm in my 6x45 and in most of big bores on buffalo.

Choosing a bullet is for you to do by testing its individual performance as to make, weight and caliber.

BTW, on the big buffalo on the first page of my web page, I found a fully expanded .375 Swift A-Frame in a ball of cartlidge on the off side skin, and scar tissue through the edges of his lungs, it looked like he had two very small lungs and two big lungs..the wound was very old and he was in prime fat condition..thus my statement on double lung shots the don't kill quickly are usually on the edges of the lungs.

Again I say if you don't like Woodleighs then try another brand, I don't see Geoff changing much as most folks including AR are quite fond of them.

I appreciate your point of view, and it makes good discussion, lets keep it that way.

From my own personal experience the most consistantly successful bullets I've used & seen used ( obviously assuming correct loading ) (and in no particular order) have been GS Custom, Woodleigh, A Frames & the good old Winchester Silvertip.

The most troublesome & disappointing for me have been Rhino & TBBC. I'm not suggesting all the products from the last two are crap, just that I've personally had bad experiences with them. - Although in fairness, I'd suspect their problem may well lay more in quality control than bad design etc.

quote:

Choosing a bullet is for you to do by testing its individual performance as to make, weight and caliber.

Thanks Ray. Your point above is very valid - I have experienced it myself and only through trial and error have I come up with what works the best for me in each caliber or cartridge so to speak.

Warrior

Warrior,
Thats about all that counts, what works for you, that has always been my philosophy in that one never knows who he is conversing with on the internet, so making ones own judgements by trial and error is the best way to go..

I do understand your reluctance inasmuch as most Woodleighs do mash up a bit but thier killing effect comes from that, and I have found the to penetrate sufficiently to suit me, but I did get a bit more when Geoff came out with the heavy for caliber Woodleighs.

I might suggest you try the 350 gr. 375 or the 450 gr. 416 or 404...you will get pass throughs with the PPs and against the off side skin with the RN bullets..both will normally have a longer stem than the bullets pictured on this thread, and more to your liking I suspect..They have been my choice but I was in cahoots with Geoff McDonald on those bullets so I am a bit prejudice

Good luck and don't let one of those old mean bulls getcha, but when it comes down to it they are just some old cows calf raised on milk! NOT

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
I take it the sandbank and the blesbok were both dead ?

Somehow I think the Blesbok would have objected to the recovery of said expended slug otherwise.

Shorthair,

The point that is actually made here is when we apply or use a big hammer to crack a small nut and we find that the pentration is relatively shallow for the power that is being applied. The question is how ideal would it be on big buffalo where penetration is much more needed than on blesbuck - like 1500 lbs vs 200 lbs, just for measure.

Conrad's 500 gr bullet in his 470 at 2150 fps did not go that deep as it over expanded much more than 2.5 times.

To contrast what I would much rather prefer is expansion of a minimum of 2 times to about 2.3 times of original diameter. But not more than 2.5x, and then you have to be extremely careful on how you pick your shots. Expansion is the biggest inhibitor of pentration, and as I pointed out even if you happen to get a 76% weight retention it won't put the odds in your favour.

For this reason I use the Rhino Solid Shank bullet in my 9,3x62 mm most of the time, as it yields good results for me and it expands about 2.2 times. Here is another typical example of the Rhino's performance in a 35 Whelen at higher velocity than my 9,3 is capable of:-



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:



Warrior

I like this minimal expansion on the likes of Buffalo and Eland but prefer a bit more on lighter PG and Cats.


My ideal combo; softer Woodleigh Round Noses and the harder Swift A Frames with the Woodleigh FMJ in the middle all shooting same point of impact..


Some more; .435" Woodleigh FMJ's from Elephant, 9.3mm Swift-A from Eland and a Woodleigh .435 soft with a high MV of 2330fps from Lion (too fast for use on Buff);

Ozhunter,

Makes sense to me.

The Woodleigh Bullets in 410 Grain Weldcore Round Nose Soft Point in the 425 Westley Richards (435 Diameter) is serious medicine on cats and lion for a fast stop - punchimg a big hole, lost of quick bleeding and knock down effect so to speak as opposed to bullet with a 1.6x to 2x expansion.

Warrior