quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Fatboy404 has posted these before and they are from his 375 H&H.
They are a mixture of 300 grain Woodleigh PP's & SN's and all were recovered from pigs & goats.
Warrior

What velocities were they shot at ?

And I bet you every single one of them died !!!


I had a deer hunter once complaining at a show that the bullet didn't exit on a 40 yard shot.

After 5 minutes of him talking, at the same time as his friends saying "don't worry about it", a well known deer hunter who was with me stopped him talking and said "What happened to the deer".

The answer - it fell over stone dead on the spot.

His response - how many times do you want to kill it.

That was the end of the discussion.

.

quote:

Then there is another photo in the same article "Designing a Bullet" from Coenrad van der Westhuizen that shot a blesbuck with his 470 NE using a 500 gr Wdl Soft doing the same thing - turning inside out. It was a frontal shot at 60 meters and stopped in the stomach - weight retention was 333 gr or 66.6%

500N

Shot at standard load at 2,100 fps - from Conrad, and we have more comprehensive and clearer photos:

Conrad's bullet - 500 gr Wdl - from the side



Conrad's bullet - 500 gr Wdl - from the bottom



Conrad's bullet - 500 gr Wdl - from the top



Conrad with Blesbuck



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Over expansion? every one of the bullets pictured made it to the off side skin is my bet.

---...---section deleted for brevity ----...---

Woodleighs are velocity specific, always have been, but some folks insist on pushing them beyond thier barrier, and in fact some have no idea that they are velocity specific or just don't care.

Spot on Ray, both those 525gn Woodleigh RNSN 505 cal bullets were recovered against a thick fighting shield on large pigs after having done quite a bit of devastation inside the pigs.
And yes I drove them faster than recommended,

a.) because I could, and
b.) because I wanted to see what would happen, and
c.) because I thought they would be dynamite on pigs (they are).
I will use the 600gn PPSN on buffalo at recommended velocity though.

338User

It is interesting when bullets are driven faster than recommended. The first Big Bore PP's were in 505 and I managed to make a few look very messy indeed (way over speed). I still prefer the RN bullets, tradition, I think they hit harder but that is my HO. Pigs and any of the 500/505 cals are awesome.

I think one of the great benefits of this country is the amount / number of animals we have to shoot / can shoot and often in quantity so we get the chance to do multiple tests within a short space of time.

Then again, Woodleigh's would probably not have been developed as fast if it wasn't for Water buffalo population and the willingness of them to die in great quantities for a noble cause !!! LOL

.

Hi 500N,
I know of a few people who have been involved in testing Woodleigh bullets, and they plus Geoff MacDonald have done a great job in developing some excellent bullets for us to use. We all owe them a debt of gratitude.

The 9,3x62 and the 9,3x74 is a bit more gentle on the Woodleigh bullet due to lower striking velocities against the 375 H&H.

We can also see more of the bullet's shank left as oppsosed with the real big-bores.

The PP's do open up more slowly than the SN's.

These 286 PP's would be devastating on soft game and I would opt for them over the SN.

The Germans have long ago made the jackets thicker towards the base to slow expansion.

I have a photo of this somewhere, and post it later on (have to loacte it first)

Perhaps Woodleigh should consider that and make the jackets thicker on the bigger bores to arrest expansion earlier.

Anyway, here is another report from FATBOY404:-

"I love the PP's in my 9.3x62. Load is 58 grains of 2208, CCI mag primer behind the 286 grain Woodleigh PP for 2,380 fps.

Here are some of the 286's recovered from game




Warrior

Warrior

Woodleigh's are thicker towards the 2nd half of the bullet - after the cannelure.

Re "9,3x62 is a bit more gentle on the Woodleigh bullet due to lower striking velocities against the 375 H&H", you should see what some people here load the '62 to !!!
Not that much difference between the two IMHO, not enough to create a big void.

Why don't you email Geoff direct - he has a wealth of experience in hunting and manufacture and happy to communicate with people.

Those 9.3 recoveries look as normal as any.


338User
I shoot with a few of them and definitely some interesting stories.
What would you say, about 2000 Buffalo would have died just
on testing of Woodleighs !!!

My 505 Gibbs was used to test the original solids by Geoff and the original owner
- by firing them backwards into Buffalo.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
I know of a few people who have been involved in testing Woodleigh bullets, and they plus Geoff MacDonald have done a great job in developing some excellent bullets for us to use. We all owe them a debt of gratitude.

Too bloody right.

I've seen several makes of bullet regularly fail but have never seen a correctly loaded Woodleigh come even close to failing....... If all the other makes were as reliable as Woodleigh, life would be much easier for PHs.

500N,

A few years ago Woodleigh did indeed thicken the jackets of the .423 and .416, but not the .458 and .510 bullets. They do taper somewhat to the bottom, but could perhaps do with some more. Here we can see the jacket profile on the .366 bullets iro the PP's and SN's:-



The 320 grain Woodleigh bullet perform well in the 9,3 as it steps along much slower than the 286 grainer and is therefore much preferred on buffalo - not because it has thicker jacket walls, but rather the increased weight that translates to higher momentum albeit at lower velocity and so the bullet stays together much better.

By contrast the Germans have developed a bullet in the 1930's with a tick jacket (brenneke Starkmantel-Geschoss) that is rarely seen today perhaps because of increased manufacturing cost. It features much ticker jackets at the bottom half to arrest expansion - basically only the ogive portion can peel back. Here is such a design and note that there is no lead exposed at the tip:-



Speer use to offer a similar bullet called the Speer AGS Soft. I am not sure if it still being offered or discontinued as well. Anyway this is what it looks like:-



Warrior

Warrior

The 404 and 416's bullets were thickened up because modern day shooters were pushing them beyond what the original design was and a few people didn't like the result. Geoff borrowed my 404 to test the new jackets on Buffalo and I think they also used some sort of 416 as well.

Not sure of the need for the 458 and 510's to be toughened up - who pushed them that fast.
You have bullets designed more for the 458 Lott already.

Also, if you toughen up the jackets, then you change the performance at both ends, close up and at a distance and then what happens when someone shoots something at 100 yards and velocity has dropped off - you then get people complaining about penciling and lack of expansion.

The "No lead exposed on the 9.3" would be just the same as the PP Woodleigh bullet - that small amount of copper wouldn't do anything.

.

500N,

I am 100% in agreement that more velocity with Softs is a moot excercise - in fact it is destructive. Here "more" means "less".

However if we look at Conrad's 500 gr bullet in his 470 NE at 2100 fps, which is the traditional velocity, then I don't think it will harm the bullet if its jackets get beefed up too. It may just do the trick.

Here are the beefed up .423 and .416 Woodleigh bullets, as published by Gregor Woods in the Man Magnum magazine at the time of their introduction to the market. The have only been beefed up matginally, but it was obviously an improvement and welcomed.



It makes sense to me to beef up the jackets the higher the momentum and energy values go of a particular cartridge - for example going from 3000 to 4000 to 5000 to 6000 ft-lbs.

I think there is a lot to be said for the German design - it is not only the tip with minimal exposure (ie a smaller hole), but its front part is thin enough to open reliably, then arrests expansion at the end of the ogive, unlike the Nosler that is further to the rear, and so provide sterling bullet performance. The Germans would not come up with this design if it did not work or met their objectives.

Warrior

Re the 470 and 500's, you should talk to Geoff at Woodleigh about it. I am sure he has been asked and i am sure he has a reason why he hasn't.

I only speak to him occasionally but will ask next time I see him.

.

Some of us are from a different planet it seems..All the Woodleighs pictured look like perfectly good expanded bullets to me..I think were getting a bit to anal around here and recovered bullets had to come from dead animals as a rule..That said I always back up softs with solids on Buffalo, and lion. I just use solids on Elephant and Hippo. In fact I could use solids on all DG and be satisfied and in fact I do just that with the 9.3s and 375 in that I use either GS Customs Flat nose solids or North Forks great cup point. I mostly use the 450 gr. Woodleigh soft and solids in my 40 calibers, although the North Fork cup points, GS customs HP and solids, Nosler partition and Barnes X work very well indeed in the 40s. I have tried them all and they all seem to work well.

However for those that believe that Woodleighs are too soft should try the North Forks, Swifts or the monolithics like Barnes and particularly GS Customs..You have many options.

It has been years since I have seen a premium bullet fail on game, but I can remember when they failed almost half the time.

Ray, opinions vary .... even amongst PH's:-

"Never, ever initiate a buff with a solid. No never. From experience, a buff will last over 20 minutes with a hole from a .375 round nosed solid through the heart. A flat nosed one will alter matters quite a bit but still. The example quoted is from the Zim PH proficiency exam 2006. I was still Chief examiner then. (Roy Ludik is taking over). It's not the first I have seen, but it was a well witnessed and documented event, and the buff was professionally dissected afterwards (and photographed by Dave Christiensen) to see what went wrong. I have been charged by a buff that took a .375 solid through both lungs the day before. Solids are for elephant (and perhaps Rhino)." ---- Don Heath

Ganyana writes in "Frontal shots on buffalo" about the effectiveness of Ken Stewart's custom bonded bullets over solid RN bullets, as the bigger hole torn through the heart makes that the muzzles cannot seal when they are contracted. Also frontal chest shots that are dead centre will not hit a lung, slightly off to one side will only puncture one lung. That is why a shot from the side is better when placed in the vital triange when the bullet can go through both lungs and the heart. An angled shot that misses the heart may only go through one lung at best, or even misses it entirely.

500N,

According to to the published article Geoff at Woodleigh has already been contacted about the results obtained and info has been sent, so I will leave it at that. I am sure Geoff will respond appropriately.

Thanks for sharing your info with us.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

500N,

According to to the published article Geoff at Woodleigh has already been contacted about the results obtained and info has been sent, so I will leave it at that. I am sure Geoff will respond appropriately.

Thanks for sharing your info with us.

Warrior

As of yesterday, he hadn't seen them because I phoned him and spoke to him about them
so it will be interesting to see what he says when he sees the photos / article.

I still don't and never will think a sand bank is a good test, especially
after I have put bullets into the same and got the opposite of what I got
in animals.

Anyway, we shall see.

.

500N,

Agreed, I think we are all in agreement that the only test of a bullet is in game. The article did not infer that the bullet retrieved from the sand bank was a test.

The Swiss bullet maker who makes the CDP bullet came up with their desing of a CEB, looking like this, and note the thickness of its jacket walls:



Here is the bullet that Ganyana used most of the time on buffalo, a bullet that Ken Stewart is making for him - a thick-jacketed bonded bullet - the relative thicknesses can be seen here where it is being compared with a Woodleigh, and note how the bullet tip of the Stewart has been formed:-



For comparison, here is the Swift A-Frame:-



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
500N,

Agreed, I think we are all in agreement that the only test of a bullet is in game. The article did not infer that the bullet retrieved from the sand bank was a test.

Warrior

Sorry, I disagree.

If it wasn't a test, then why include it in the article along side the words "Designing a Bullet".

What is the point of showing it if it is not a test.


Good photos. However don't compare Swift A Frame to Woodleighs, different bullet, different construction and can be driven harder. I know when testing was done on the new, thicker 416 jackets (Mk 11's), we fired 416's into Buffalo necks and then a Swift into the Buffalo next to it as a direct comparison (it was quite funny, we herded and had 2 very willing Medium sized buffalo that just stood there that allowed these 2 identical shots to happen).

Anyway, all good discussion.

.

500N,

If you read the Article of Dr Mauritz Coetzee you will see that the test is about results of bullets in game, and hence the photo of Conrad's bullet in game. Mauritz writes every month in this journal and writes about all bullets, not just Woodleigh in case you think he has an agenda against Woodleigh - he reports what he sees and what PH's submit to him. Muaritz has been running a series on bullet performance for the last 3 years in the African Outfitter.

Apparantly, there will be a follow to this article about another incident from a hunter from Namibia in the next issue, and I will be posting some pics of interest flowing from that. Not sure about the details.

Warrior

Warrior:

Can I ask you a question? Your profile says your location is "South of the Zambezi". Your posts mostly seem to be about what your have read and not YOUR actual experiences. Where exactly do you live and have you ever actually shot an animal with a Woodleigh bullet? The reason that I ask is because all the guys with lots of experience actually hunting with these bullets have said repeatedly that as long as you keep the Woodleighs in their velocity window, they are great bullets but you just can't seem to take yes for an answer. As I said in my previous post, if you don't like the Woodleighs, use something else. There are lot's of other options.

Dave

I asked that question on page 1 but only 1 or 2 answered and I knew what Atkinson has done.


One thing I find people find hard to understand is Geoff develops a new bullet, he heads out and shoots a few 'roos, pigs, sheep, cows or whatever, sends a few up north and around Australia to hunters, animals die in large numbers and recoveries get sent back to him with reports.

He even jumps on a plane and goes up north and shoot 20 - 50 Buffalo in a week to test the things (One I can think of being the new 404 / 416 jackets as he used my 404 to do it). I've also done in a number of times myself, solely for the purposes of testing bullets (the PP bullets in 9.3 and 505 Gibbs, and that was 30 - 40 dead Buffalo alone, every single one cut up).

By the time the bullet hits the market, it has probably killed over 100 big game animals and probably 200 small, medium and big game in total.

I've sent test bullets back to Geoff that were destroyed and others that were as ugly as sin but we knew exactly why they were and that was exactly the result we wanted as it gave us the Maximum Recommended Impact Velocity. The figures Woodleigh used are not plucked out of thin air, they are based on actual chronographed and recovered results from experienced hunters.

So good question Dave.


Fianlly, I might support Woodleigh but it's because I know they work,
as Atkinson says, if kept within the boundaries.

I know they are not perfect, you do get the odd funny result but you do with every bullet make. But funny results and looking recoveries in most cases still result in a dead animal.

And finally, shooting a small animal with a big bore does not necessarily extrapolate to a big animal.

.

Warrior,

Not meaning to pile on, but what's the point?

Velocity and target matter with Woodleighs, certainly and no doubt about it.

I have killed Cape buffalo and other game with Woodleighs, and I am here to tell you that they work as advertised.

Here is one example. The beautiful remains of a 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore soft point recovered after four feet of buffalo.



One shot kill. Caliber was .458 Lott and impact velocity was probably 2,250 fps or so (30 yards).

Now, here are what's left of two 600 grain Protected Point Woodleigh softs recovered from a sand bank.



I was testing certain things. Caliber was .500 A-Square and impact velocity was probably around 2,400 fps, plus or minus (100 yards).

What's this prove?

That one had better pay heed to the manufacturer's recommendations for Woodleighs.

NOT that Woodleighs are somehow defective, or that they will always over-expand.

QED.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Dave

I asked that question on page 1 but only 1 or 2 answered and I knew what Atkinson has done.


One thing I find people find hard to understand is Geoff develops a new bullet, he heads out and shoots a few 'roos, pigs, sheep, cows or whatever, sends a few up north and around Australia to hunters, animals die in large numbers and recoveries get sent back to him with reports.

He even jumps on a plane and goes up north and shoot 20 - 50 Buffalo in a week to test the things (One I can think of being the new 404 / 416 jackets as he used my 404 to do it). I've also done in a number of times myself, solely for the purposes of testing bullets (the PP bullets in 9.3 and 505 Gibbs, and that was 30 - 40 dead Buffalo alone, every single one cut up).

By the time the bullet hits the market, it has probably killed over 100 big game animals and probably 200 small, medium and big game in total.

I've sent test bullets back to Geoff that were destroyed and others that were as ugly as sin but we knew exactly why they were and that was exactly the result we wanted as it gave us the Maximum Recommended Impact Velocity. The figures Woodleigh used are not plucked out of thin air, they are based on actual chronographed and recovered results from experienced hunters.

So good question Dave.


Fianlly, I might support Woodleigh but it's because I know they work,
as Atkinson says, if kept within the boundaries.

I know they are not perfect, you do get the odd funny result but you do with every bullet make. But funny results and looking recoveries in most cases still result in a dead animal.

And finally, shooting a small animal with a big bore does not necessarily extrapolate to a big animal.

.

500N:

Have you tried any of the new Hydros yet? I shot a few to test in my 450 Marlin and they ROCK! Only thing is they are very long compared to a conventional bullet and I get significant powder compression with Accurate 2230. I may have to try Accurate 1680.

I have used the Woodleigh softs and solids in my .404 on bison and the preformed perfectly. If you look, you can find some of the pictures of the 405 grain grain bullets Michael tested in his 45-70 and they were picture perfect. Woodleigh makes a great bullet in my view and if Warrior doesn't want to use them, there are a lot of other options.

Good luck and good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

500N:

Have you tried any of the new Hydros yet? I shot a few to test in my 450 Marlin and they ROCK! Only thing is they are very long compared to a conventional bullet and I get significant powder compression with Accurate 2230. I may have to try Accurate 1680.

I have used the Woodleigh softs and solids in my .404 on bison and the preformed perfectly. If you look, you can find some of the pictures of the 405 grain grain bullets Michael tested in his 45-70 and they were picture perfect. Woodleigh makes a great bullet in my view and if Warrior doesn't want to use them, there are a lot of other options.

Good luck and good hunting.

Yes, impressive. I have only shot them out of my Westley Richards 500/465 as Geoff wanted a couple of recoveries from a Double Rifle so they made some for it (this was before this size was on the market).

I loaded one Hydro and one RNSN each time so we could get a comparison and as it turned out, had two or three Buffalo that got one of each so it was good plus one Buffalo that got a couple of Hydro's as the opportunity presented to put a few of them into it.

We had one really good direct comparison on a Big Buffalo, the 2 bullets entered within 4 - 6 inches of each other on the side and tracked across the body (angling slightly forward) in exactly the same path but 4 - 6 inches apart. The hydro exited, the RNSN was just under the skin.

I was impressed and I know others who have used them - who have no association with Woodleigh - who have also been impressed. I know a guy used them out of his H&H Royal 500/465 in Africa.

On another note, a bit of a funny story re testing where everything does not always go to plan !!! LOL
When they were originally produced, I carried a 375H&H one for a week with strict instructions to only shoot it front on or end on and only into a Big Cow or Bull buffalo as they wanted recoveries - which they were finding hard to come by !!!

Well not once did the Buffalo oblige and stand the right way or stand when wounded, that week they all seemed to fall over dead when I shot them so I never got to fire it which was a pity. Plenty of others did and I saw the effect and recoveries.


They are the only Brass solid type bullet I have ever used as I always said that I wouldn't use them in DR's but Geoff knows what he is doing and needed some recoveries quick so was happy to oblige.

.

Some more photos of retrieved Woodleighs:

1. Two 500 grain bullets - FMJ and a SN both loaded to 2,185 fps - good performance:-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...871038741#3871038741

2. Then a 250 gr SN bullet ex a waterbuck with a frontal chest shot - it did over expand, but still penetrated to the liver just before the stomach:-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...581048741#4581048741

3. The on the very same page we have the following from 'ozhunter' comparing the Woodleigh to a Swift A-Frame:-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...901068741#7901068741

The 2 Woodleighs in the bottom picture show serious expansion.

4. And here we have some more bullets ex buffalo - this time it is NP; TSX abd NF:-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=667100249#667100249

Warrior

Warrior:

Okay, one more time....

Can I ask you a question? Your profile says your location is "South of the Zambezi". Your posts mostly seem to be about what your have read and not YOUR actual experiences. Where exactly do you live and have you ever actually shot an animal with a Woodleigh bullet? The reason that I ask is because all the guys with lots of experience actually hunting with these bullets have said repeatedly that as long as you keep the Woodleighs in their velocity window, they are great bullets but you just can't seem to take yes for an answer.

Another question. Are you in any way connected with a bullet company of some sort or is it just your personal mission to run down Woodleigh bullets. PLEASE RESPOND!!!!!

Dave,

I think you are missing the point the point as to what I believe in. I am in favour of keeping bullets within their threshold strength. That is my mantra. As far as Woodleighs are concerned, I am even more in favour of this. The very first posting I made was about Conrad's bullet at that was within the standard velocity of a 470 NE - please go back to post number one, you may have missed that. The bullet over expanded and turned inside out. As a matter of fact, I do not shoot Woodleighs, I never had to and probably never will .... reason being their is no need, as there are many other local choices. For quite some time we could not get Woodleighs here.

However I like the Woodleigh bullets in 9,3 especially the 320 grainers - both the FMJ and the SN .... because they run at a lower velocity than the 286 gr version, and that keeps them well within their operating window and so they perform better ... much better if you will .... as attested on buffalo !!! Yes, that should make my position ubundantly clear to you .... beter penetration for the soft bullet construction as we put more momentum behind the frontal area.

Another thing, the author of the article rubs shoulders with pleny PH's and overseas hunters that bring him stories and the evidence, and so he writes for quiete a few magazines.

One more time .... I am the opposite of a spead freak ... in fact I am widely known for that ... and now you know too.

Look again at ozhunter's posting - the Woodleigh on the far right with serious over expansion ... http://forums.accuratereloadin...901068741#7901068741

Also did you notice in my above posting where I said and I quote ... "1. Two 500 grain bullets - FMJ and a SN both loaded to 2,185 fps - good performance:-" .... pay attention to the velocity of 2,185 fps causing the good performance !!!

Dave if you had paid attention, you would have seen what my view was about expansion, and for ease of reference I will quote it again .... "Generally if a bullet expands more than 2.5x it starts to impair penetration and by the time when it gets to 3x times shallow penetration is indeed guaranteed." This goes for all bullet brands and this is the standard that I like to use for myself.

Warrior

Now, answer my questions.

1. Where exactly do you live?

2. Hay you ever shot an animal with a Woodleigh bullet and give us the circumstances. I have. A huge bull bison with a 404 with softs and solids and my son killed a cow bison with one shot Woodleigh soft from my 500 Jeffery. Complete penetration on a side shot. Another hunter took over my 404 when his 300 Ultra Mag wouldn't put a huge bull bison down and he put him down with two solids from my Jeffery. One would have been enough. All bullets performed PERFECTLY.

3. Are you in some way affiliated with another bullet company. If you are, we need to know that as it effects your credibility.

Dave,

The above posting of yours is irrelevant, presumptious, and does not deserve an answer from me, as it has nothing to do the price of the eggs.

Warrior

I though so. Warrior, you are just a poser...

Dave,

I have stated my case, and that is the way it is.
You either like it or you don't.
Each to his own - you shoot what you like, and I do the same.

Cheers
Warrior

Look again at ozhunter's posting - the Woodleigh on the far right with serious over expansion ... http://forums.accuratereloadin...901068741#7901068741


Warrior

That "serious over expansion" as you call it can not only be caused by a higher velocity but by hitting bone at a certain angle. One of the petals is bent in which is what made me think that. I have seen it before.


At the end of the day, bullets like that must have killed something to get the recoevery and they cause damn good wound channels.


Re A Frames / Woodleighs
A number of your links compared the 2 with comments like Woodleighs are a lot softer than A Frames.

Compare apples with apples will you, of course Woodleighs perform differently to A Frames, they don't have a solid brass bit across the middle !!!

Jesus, if you put a solid brass bit across the middle of a Woodleigh, it would do exactly the same as an A Frame.

Please, get real with you evaluations.


BTW - I like A Frames, they are a good bullet.

Warrior
"2. Then a 250 gr SN bullet ex a waterbuck with a frontal chest shot - it did over expand, but still penetrated to the liver just before the stomach:-

http://forums.accuratereloadin...581048741#4581048741"


Before you used that link to highlight over expansion of Woodleigh's (and by YOUR interpretation hindering penetration), did you actually read what he wrote ????????
(I ask because what he wrote does NOT support your theory in any way).


"Nyala left and waterbuck right.
The one from the nyala got a beating hitting a twig before entering the shoulder blade on the nyala. Found under the skin on the oposite side. Went 10 feet before toppling over

Waterbuck was hit in front of chest and the bullet found in the liver."


What more do you want ?

Hit in the front chest, found in liver. the Liver is BEHIND the heart lungs from the angle the bullet went in so how can you say that isn't enough penetration ? Their are No more vital organs past the liver on that bullets trajectory so what would penetrating further have achieved ?

And petals like that cut up the internal organs as it passes, causing tremendous blood loss.


And I say again did you actually read what he wrote ????????

This is what HE wrote at the bottom of his post

"The 250 grn RN is also my "go to" bullet for the 35 Whelen and have accountet for many red deer and and a moose.
No bullets found."

SO, If he didn't find any bullets, it means they penetrated through and through
- so even if they did over expand like in the photo, you can only penetrate through
and through once before you hit air again !!!


"Same goes with the 308 Win, where the 150 grn PP is my favourite for roe deer.
So far no bullets found here eighter."

The Woodleigh has become my most used bullet based on perfomance, accuracy and price."


Warrior
If you are going to use other people's posts to support your argument, then at least
try to pick posts that support it, not give me ammunition to shoot you down in flames,
be it Woodleigh's, A Frames or whatever.


Now go out and kill a few ANIMALS with Woodleigh's and see for yourself
and stay away from those sand banks, they are very dangerous to both you
and the bullets !!! LOL

Have a good day.
.

500N,

We can speculate if this Woodleigh bullet of ozhunter did make contact with a bone or a rib at an angle, but neither of us were there to know it for sure. What is important here is that we observe what ozhunter has actually said, which is based on his own obesrevation and understanding and that is, and I quote .... "They are ideal for PG and the Predators but I prefer the A Frames for Buffalo." That seems to suggest to me at least that he regards the bullet as too soft for buffalo. He did not mention anything about bones.

Ozhunter is also a serious and well experienced hunter in may parts of the world. Now of course we don't have to agree with him on his view. However, many other people have killed plenty of buffalo with Woodleigh SN bullets, but that is not the issue just as it is not the issue that many Zimbaweans have killed buffalo with military 7.62 mm FMJ Spitzer bullets. It is about what we as individuals prefer or do not prefer to use. My take is that I would not use a bullet knowingly that expands more than 2.5x as a matter of choice.

To put it differently I would rather use a .366/320 gr Wdl SN bullet at 2200 fps as opposed to a .375/300 gr bullet at 2400 fps on buffalo if I have a choice and it is between the 2 of them, for the reasons I have stated already.

Also nyala and and waterbuck are soft-skinned animals and not buffalo that can kill a person - it is a different kettle of fish and that is the debate here ... about dangerous game. When any bullet over-expands on soft game then one should consider that it may just be worse on thick-skinned dangerous game when angled shots might be on the cards.

Warrior

I know OzHunter and he is a good, experienced hunter.
His opinion is valid as he has been there, done that.
I have no problem with what OzHunter says or does.

But so are Dave, Atkinson and Michael Robinson opinion's valid,
equally as experienced if not more so.

Just the same as some like Barnes, some like A Frames,
some like whatever takes their fancy. As you said "It is about
what we as individuals prefer or do not prefer to use."

The difference is, all 3 have been there and done it
with Woodleighs and other bullets. You haven't posted
any personal experience or bullet recoveries.

(If you want to see some of my recoveries, you will have
to ask Woodleigh or look in the Woodleigh catalogues as
I sent them all back to Geoff).

Re your comment "My take is that I would not use a bullet knowingly that expands more than 2.5x as a matter of choice." Woodleigh's do not expand more than 2.5x. Of over 150 bullets fired into over Buffalo and pigs within the RIV (ie Not one's that were under test at higher or lower than normal RIV), I can't think of any or many that were over 2.5x in size.

Now, if you want Penetration without being worried about over expansion,
you now have the Woodleigh Hydro's so use them.

.

500N,

Woodleigh bullets filled a great void after Kynoch stopped producing bullets especially for the Doubles, and even to this day.

My hope is that the SN bullet for the bigger bores can be toughened up and improved further. I mean this in a constructive way. I hope you will accept it this way from me. If I lived in Australia, I would have used Woodleighs too.

I saw the good performance of the Hydros in Michaels test.

Thanks for the discussion.
Warrior

Warrior

don't hold your breath for it to happen if the bigger bore bullets are for a Double rifle.

Too many thigs to take into account and too many users of DR's happy as it is IMHO.


If it's for the 458 Lott and other specific Higher velocity BOLT ACTION calibres, then Geoff does that already and may do more in the future.

.

Warrior,
Since you like to quote Ganyana, let me advise you that Ganyana has had poor results with the 320 gr. Woodleigh in his 9.3x62 according to his post on AR sometime ago. he prefers the 286 gr. bullet with more velocity and its a great bullet in some makes. I suspect that is because his 9.3x62 was loaded down as you do yours? or his barrel was to short..

In my 26 inch barrel, long throated, long magazine 9.3x62 I get 2400 FPS plus a little and it kills better than at 2200 FPS were the bullets fail to expand, and I have shot quit a number of buffalo with the 9.3x62 therefore I must question your post.

I like the 285 gr. in the Woodleigh, Nosler, and Northfork..I also like the 300gr. Swift..but Swifts have a flaw IMO, and that is the make the perfect littles smooth round balls with a hump in the base. The do not kill as fast as the Woodleigh with its long flared out wings that rip and tear IMO..


Also on a frontal shot, you should get a lung or two and the spine if you place your shot properly, but the problem with a 9.3 or a 375 there is a chance that the soft point bullet will slide off course and go between the rib cage and the foreleg and under the skin aways the exit doing little damage..I only hunt buffalo with solids with the 9.3 and the .375 for that reason, and have not had any trouble killing them in the last 50 plus years.

If I use a soft it will be in a 40 or 45 caliber.


There is a lot that I disagree with in your posts, but I do so without malice..As to PHs, some know what they talk about and others lack experience, like any other business.."Many" are farmers with a PH license and mostly hunt plainsgame and perhaps ocassionally DG. Africa is flooded with young PHs today without a lot of experience, A great number of the old time PHs are retired, dead or hunting for TGT..

Your post seem to have an agenda and I say seems to have, but I can tell you that those that have hunted extensively over the years for DG have used and like Woodleigh bullets else he would have been out of business many years ago.

There are other bullets out there that would suit you I am sure, and perhaps as opposed to trying to overhaul Woodlieghs you should just use another brand that is more suitable to you. I suggest you try the Northfork Cup Point, its one of the best bullets I have used on Buffalo. As to buffalo running around double lung shot with a solid, I understand that happens on ocassion with any caliber or any bullet but usually the POI was on the edges of the lungs. If your shot is center, any animal will make few tracks.

Finn Aagard swore by solids and the .375, as does Harold Wolf who has shot hundreds of buffalo. I like solids and have shot as many buffalo as any one on this side of the ocean. What I am saying is that it's an option and it works if you can shoot, but that applies to any bullet in any caliber...

quote:

Since you like to quote Ganyana, let me advise you that Ganyana has had poor results with the 320 gr. Woodleigh in his 9.3x62 according to his post on AR sometime ago. he prefers the 286 gr. bullet with more velocity and its a great bullet in some makes. I suspect that is because his 9.3x62 was loaded down as you do yours? or his barrel was to short..

Hello Ray,

Thanks for popping in. Just an observation here - On the Woodleigh site both the 286 and 320 gr SN bullet has a recommended muzzle velocity band of 1800 to 2200 fps. So I am rather puzzled that the 320 grainer as alluded by you does not fit in properly and effectively in this band. I do not load my 9,3 down, just arround the normal velocity of PMP, which is 2264 fps with a 286 grainer, and we got 2200 fps with the 320 grainer as a safe max load with with our local powders in a 24 inch barrel when we did pressure testing though a lab. Velocity loss per inch in the 9,3 caliber is around 28 fps per inch and a barrel that is 2 inches shorter equates to 56 fps, and so on - it is still within the opreating band if we nock it off the 2200 fps datum line.

However your statement above about the warning about 'poor performance' is in stark contrast with the satement below as published by yourself on 24 Hour Campfire (12/29/09 06:04 PM) - it reads as follws:-

"For Buffalo I shoot the 320 gr. Woodleigh solid or soft, mostly solids..it has worked well for me and I have shot a number of buffalo with that combination.. I also really like the Northfork flat nose solids, they are very effective." and also .... "My 9.3x62 load is 59 grs. of RL-15 with a 286 gr. Woodleigh or Nosler and that is a minimun for buffalo IMO..My preference is the 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2450 FPS"

Now 2450 fps is outside the velocity limit by 250 fps. If Ganyana had a problem with the 320 grainers then I suspect it might be a problem with a particular batch or so, but not the run of the mill type thing, which is totally in contrast with the recommendation on the website.

Elsewhere you say ... "In my 26 inch barreled Brno mod. 21 9.3x62 I can get 2400 plus with a 320 gr. Woodleigh so that is my favorite buffalo bullet. This however may not work in a shorter tube and according to a well known PH he had trouble with it using African powders and a short tube 9.3x62."

I would appreciate if you could post a couple of the 320 gr SN's retrieved from buffalo you shot.

The one thing that I have observed is that the Woodleighs open up reliably even at low velocities - well as low as 1800 fps per the manufacturer's website. Here is another account on the African Hunting forum ...

http://www.africahunting.com/f...-3x62.html#post20724

And if anything, over expansion is more likely than under expansion.

Warrior

Any recovered bullet that has caused the fairly rapid death of an animal must be considered to have "performed well" don't you think? Surely discussing how one recovered bullet may have performed better than another is really just splitting hairs! They both achieved the desired end result after all!

338 User,

Agreed, in the confines as you put it here, but then there is always the risk of turning out the other way, as it happened with my son and his friend when they shot the 2 gemsbuck with Claw Bullets that over expanded - see my earlier post in this very same thread that needed multiple shots and a long follow up:

"Retrieved bullets, from left to right :-

1) 375 Claw - Gemsbok 1 - 50% weight retention - 2.6x expansion
2) 375 Claw - Gemsbok 2 - 76% weight retention - 3.2x expansion"

When half the weight is being lost on impact half of the terminal momentum is gone and so penetration suffers, and to worsen the situation further the bullet also expands to 2.6 times and penetration is severly impaired.

Even when the bullet maintained three quarters of its weight it could not drive deep enough, as the expansion this time was 3.2 times.

Warrior