I think it would have been a lot more popular. Remington and big bores just don't seem to go together.

There could no be a better endorsement than Saeed using a pair of 375/404 Improveds for many years now and from the smallest to largest gamee and from memory Dakota ations. For quite a few years now he has it loaded to what would be about 375 Wby ballistics so his loads are mild. I know RIP will jump over the RUM (and WSM case) being rebated rims but thhe rebate is very small and no one seems to ever complain. The 378 Wby case is a bigger rebate.

I reckon CZ wuld have chambered a 375 Winchester Magnum. They did 416 Rigby but I don't think they ever did the 375 RUM.

I think you are right on the whole. Associations and reputations influence purchases

The .416 Rem mag seems to have survived because of the Win 70. So maybe they don't need the name change.

What I want some day is Win 70 in 8mm Rem mag, some day I'll pick up a .300 wby and make the switch.

I don’t think so.

“Most” folks who step up from a .375 H&H are not in search of more velocity. They are inching towards a “stopping rifle”. They move to the .40 bores and then there are the few who get into the .50+ area.

None of the higher velocity big bores are really that popular. Yes, Weatherby made its place there, but really, I’ve only seen a couple of .460’s over there... never a .378 or a .416 weatherby. Lots of .416’s and .458’s, a few .470’s, fewer .500’s, and rare 505’s or .577’s- but more .577’s than .460 Weatherby.

There is the crowd that is looking for extreme range performance, but those guys generally using either a tactical type cartridge or a wildcat of their own choice.

I don’t think the Remington name helps drive sales, but the rifles available are a bigger deal than the cartridge name- so if you have a good CRF rifle with decent accuracy, and decent fit and finish, it will appeal to hunters and guys who want to look like they hunt. (The 700 push feed action is more than capable of fine accuracy, it just looks chintzy in usual factory format). (No American name will drive big bore sales- the guys who buy big bores for name are looking for nostalgia- Rigby, Holland’s, Nitro Express, etc. European names associated with the colonial era.)

Personally after shooting a .378 WM 2 shots, that sharp high velocity recoil is too unpleasant in a big bore for me. A .500 NE is much less abusive. Even Saeed doesn’t push velocity on his 375-404 (which is essentially a .375 RUM).

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t think so.

“Most” folks who step up from a .375 H&H are not in search of more velocity. They are inching towards a “stopping rifle”. They move to the .40 bores and then there are the few who get into the .50+ area.

None of the higher velocity big bores are really that popular. Yes, Weatherby made its place there, but really, I’ve only seen a couple of .460’s over there... never a .378 or a .416 weatherby. Lots of .416’s and .458’s, a few .470’s, fewer .500’s, and rare 505’s or .577’s- but more .577’s than .460 Weatherby.

There is the crowd that is looking for extreme range performance, but those guys generally using either a tactical type cartridge or a wildcat of their own choice.

I don’t think the Remington name helps drive sales, but the rifles available are a bigger deal than the cartridge name- so if you have a good CRF rifle with decent accuracy, and decent fit and finish, it will appeal to hunters and guys who want to look like they hunt. (The 700 push feed action is more than capable of fine accuracy, it just looks chintzy in usual factory format). (No American name will drive big bore sales- the guys who buy big bores for name are looking for nostalgia- Rigby, Holland’s, Nitro Express, etc. European names associated with the colonial era.)

Personally after shooting a .378 WM 2 shots, that sharp high velocity recoil is too unpleasant in a big bore for me. A .500 NE is much less abusive. Even Saeed doesn’t push velocity on his 375-404 (which is essentially a .375 RUM).

I am sure yiu will find Saeed tried his 375/404 Improveds from top loads down to what would be top H&H loads and he also gave the 375 Lazzeroni a go and is current loads are based on what he found to be the best velocity for use on game.

I reckon the vast majority of big bores are not purchased with very big game in mind. For Weatherby the 378 is a good seller and also the 460. The 416 has been dead compared to the other two. Sure, it does not have the big velocity of the 378 of "the big one" of the 460 but it simply does not have the play around bullets of the 375 and 458 bores.

Actually this Big Bores forum was came about when a bloke called Mitch Carter suggested to Saeed a forum for people who like the big bangers but were not going to Africa.

Yep, Mitch was a hotrodder par excellence. His .577 Tyrannosaur was a bugholer at 100 yards, with a 6X Leupold scope and mounts soldered onto the action (BBK-02?) by Harry McGowen,
though the barrel was a Pac-Nor.
I had private tutoring by Mitch regarding torque control, in 2001, on Long Island, NY.
My hair turned grey overnight after that.

Yes, I jump right over rebated rims in CRF rifles,
just like the bolts of bolt action rifles might do when you least expect it.
They belong in non-serious pushfeeds for precision work.
RUMs belong in Remington 700s.
I did keep an M700 .375 RUM because it was so accurate. I keep it at the back of the safe.
I had a CZ .375 RUM about 1999.
That action became a .375/404 "Jeffery Saeed of 2012"
reverse-engineered from Saeed's circa 1996 version (he was .375 RUM before .375 RUM)
using a .375 Weatherby CIP throat since Saeed's original throat is Cosmic Squirrel Secret.
Remember that Saeed uses a Rigby-Length Dakota African for his long-nosed bullets.

I have converted 3 different .300 RUM M70s to nonrebated cartridges: .404 Jeffery, .416 Dakota, and .500/.338 Lopwah Improved.
No, I just can't see putting a .375 RUM in an M70 Winchester,
unless it is one of those pushfeed versions.
How about opening up an XTR to 3.8" box length for that?

Rip ...

On a Mark V in any of the 378 based calibres and if the spring bias is bit low at the rear, if you work the bolt back and forward super fast, you won't be able to do it from the shoulder but rifle on sandbags, you can get the bolt to override the case. The problem is in thee open position one row lugs is at the bottom and of course bolt diameter but the bolt nose protrudes a bit beyond the lugs and so the head of the case is below the rim of the bolt nose.

That is why you will find Mark Vs have strong magazine springs.

Yes, Saeed dropped his load to essentially .375 H&H improved because he said the higher velocity did little to improve performance on game... so what is the point of the weatherby round?

I know most big bores don't go afield but the reasoning is that it's a big elephant thumper and the dreams of such. I don't know too many who buy a .375 H&H then get a .378 WBY, most step up to a .458 or .416.

RIP probably would excommunicate me. I had a pre 64 win m70 turned into a .300 ultra. Feeds just fine, thank you.

I built it to maximize point blank range for spiral horned antelope, in particular, mountain nyala.

Personally, I don't see much difference between a .416 rigby/Rem mag and the bigger bores as far as Buffalo. Shot a few with a .470, and it's about a oneness to me. The .416 does seem to drop them marginally faster than the H&H, though.

The bigger difference is elephant bulls. But that really has little to do with gun sales- most guys buying big bores are doing it with the thought of African Safari, even if they have no plan on going.

Your point on the development of the big bore forum is noted, but really has nothing to do with your initial question, namely would the .375 RUM be more popular as the .375 win mag and in a M70. Its all opinion, but I said no for the above reason, most guys don't have RIP's feelings about cartridge design; but rather are either nursing a desire to live a safari, possibly vicariously, or otherwise, just to have a big gun for whatever reason. The guys who want the "biggest, baddest" go the weatherby mag route. The nostalgic go for classics, and the rest tend to get what they feel is the best value (which is where the RUM, Win mag, and Ruger rounds fall IMO).

The hunters and the experimenters would not support the development and production of a factory big bore by their numbers alone.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

I don't know too many who buy a .375 H&H then get a .378 WBY, most step up to a .458 or .416.

Guess where lots of 378 sales come from, blokes with a 375 H&H.

Jumping from 375 to the 378 is really like going from the 30/06 to 300 Magnums. I suppose 375 H&H to 375 RUM is like 30/06 to 300 Winchester and 375 to 378 is like 30/06 to 300 Wby.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

The hunters and the experimenters would not support the development and production of a factory big bore by their numbers alone.

True. However, they affect other shooters. They give other shooters the chance to have a shot, play with, call it what you like a calibre/rifle the bloke would not have just bought from a gun shot without first seeing one.

Th big bore market is also supported by the pricing different calibres and their rifles will bear in the market. Consider the 338/06 and 35 Whelen Vs 375 H&H. As you know a Model 70 in 375 is more expensive than a Super Grade (at least last tie I looked) yet is has the shitty No 1 wood as Winchester call it. Big profit per rifle. 35 Whelen factory ammo would never bear the pricing of 375 H&H factory ammo. The problem with the 338/06 and 35 Whelen is they will only bear 270 and 30/06 pricing.

The big bore market is where you find the enthusiasts. Just look at AR and the topics/posts on Big Bores as compared to Medium Bores and Small Bores, Big Bores is greater than either yet we both know out of the AR membership the ownership of big bores is way smaller.

IMO I believe there are rifles in calibers that are too big for deer and antelope, I also believe you can go overboard on elephants and whales probably!! I believe too many hunters put too much value on big calibers and never even consider recoil recovery, especially on DG in your lap..Just speaking for myself and based on a few incidents along the way.

... look up HEM and Imperial magnums ...
this story is older than remington making a cool round....

ever seen a 7remmag in a model 70? or a 270 or 308 in a 700?

IDK, BUT i expect remington sells more rifles than winchester -- price point and brand loyalty thing, not caliber

if model 70 (CRF) was a thing, push feed m70s would sell for 200 and CRF for 1K... just aint truth .. and if CRF and functionality were a market driver, pre-64s would be cheaper than new FNs .... just saying

Would not have made any difference; it is too much of a good thing. Much like the 378 Weatherby. Once you get to around the H&H, you have a sweet spot. Above, not so much. Result; poor sales. After all, this is Capitalism and businesses do not make what the market does not want. Trade name is less important, not saying it is irrelevant, but not in this case. Situation.

The 375 Weatherby leaves little to be improved upon as does it's parent cartridge the 375 H&H. The 378 Weatherby and 375 RUM punish a lot more on the shooters end for not a lot more damage on the far end.

Ive seen and discussed more failures of bullets in the hotrod 375 rifles...As a matter of fact I slow my 375 down to a 300 gr. bullet at 2525 FPS and it seems to kill better, I can get a bit more than 2600 FPS in a .375 H&H, but penetration suffers,,, I got that information from several PHs and from Doctari's book, so gave it a try and those guys were spot..

But more important is don't tread on my 375 H&H, it ain't cricket!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
The 375 Weatherby leaves little to be improved upon as does it's parent cartridge the 375 H&H. The 378 Weatherby and 375 RUM punish a lot more on the shooters end for not a lot more damage on the far end.

The 375 RUM will do 375 Wby ballistics with what are backed off loads as Saeed deoes with his 375/404 Improved.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
The 375 Weatherby leaves little to be improved upon as does it's parent cartridge the 375 H&H. The 378 Weatherby and 375 RUM punish a lot more on the shooters end for not a lot more damage on the far end.

The 375 RUM will do 375 Wby ballistics with what are backed off loads ...

Don't short change the .375 WBY CIP throat.
There is less difference on both ends of the .375 WBY rifle than some claim in comparison to the .375 RUM Short Throat.
And the .375 WBY is not rebated of rim.
Nor is Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery, which is a better cartridge design than the .375 RUM, even if his .375/404 Jeffery is as short-throated as the .375 RUM.
Saeed loads to a 3.8" box length with his long and pointy-nosed bullets.
If he had a .375 WBY CIP throat on the .375/404 Jeffery, he could load a blunter-nosed bullet LongCOL, same as with a .375 WBY.
What a great idea !

Rip ...

And if he had a 378 he load wadcutters with 3/4" sticking out of the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
And if he had a 378 he load wadcutters with 3/4" sticking out of the case.

That is longer than the .458 Win.Mag. throat,
both absolutely and relative to caliber scaling, way longer relative to caliber of bullet.
That is twice as long as the CIP .375 Wby throat with same caliber bullet.
Yet somehow the .378 Wby gets by.
Go figure.

Rip ...