I am thinking very seriously about building a 404 Jeffery. Reasons being, I can have the rifle built trimmer and lighter weight than a 416 Rigby, the 404 Jeffery seems to have alot of flexibility/capability, manageable recoil, etc. The rifle would be designed and built specifically for the 404 Jeffery.

Also, it seems the world would be better off with one more 404 Jeffery

Norma and A-Square reference CIP specs. for the 404 being:

1) Case Length max. 2.875", trim to 2.865"
2) OAL cartridge 3.530"

Not attemting to start a riot but I am interested in knowing what cartridge OAL you are using for the 404???? and yes I realize individual rifles are different.

It also seems most 404 Jeffery, .423 caliber bullets, are set up to crimp at longer than listed CIP OAL.

I have done a search but would appreciate if you could list powders/loads you like in this round and velocities you are attaining with certain bullets.

Thanks for your time and attention

I'm currently shooting 350 grain Woodleighs and the OAL of the crimped cartridge is 3.510

Here's some loading data

Vapodog:

Thanks for the information.

What brass are you using? I understand that RWS brass for the 404 Jeffery is no longer available...Norma does produce the 404 Jeffery brass, wonder what other companies make it???

jjs, p.m. rip, he is the biggest 423 cal man here...no offense to any and all 423 lovers p.s. i think youre thinking on the 404 is right on!

I am using Norma brass, I have a box or two of RWS but am saving it. If you can find Bell brass, it's also good. You can even make brass from .375RUM cases. I load to 3.56" OAL, this usually puts the crimp in the cannelure. So far I've loaded bullets by Hawk, Barnes, NorthFork, Woodleigh & even 300gr 44mag bullets sized down for plinking loads. Most chamber reamers are setup for a short throat & loading much longer pushed the bullet into the lands.
It's a great old cartridge that should be loaded by at least one major ammo manuf. I like IMR4831 & RL19 w/ 380gr-400gr bullets. I only run these to 2250fps or so & they work great on any game. I like RL15 or VV150 w/ 340gr-350gr bullets, running them around 2500fps for a PG load.

what is the status on hornady's 404 ammo/components?

quote:

What brass are you using?

Norma for me right now.

quote:

You can even make brass from .375RUM cases.

The RUM case has a smaller head that might function as a practice round but you need to know that it's not the correct size for the 404.

I have a bunch of BeLL and 50 rounds of Norma on the way. I measured some of my new BeLL and it measured 2.855.

more load data:

400 A-Square Dead-Tough SP Alliant RL-12 82.0 2,437
Remarks: OAL: 3.47 inches; near maximum
400 A-Square Lion-Load SP Accurate Arms AAC-2520 83.0 2,456
Remarks: OAL: 3.47 inches; maximum and accurate
400 A-Square Monolithic Solid Winchester W-748 88.0 2,522
Remarks: OAL: 3.47 inches; near maximum
400 Barnes SP Alliant RL-15 84.0 2,410
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches
400 Barnes Solid Alliant RL-15 83.0 2,483
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches; elephants, etc.
400 Barnes Solid IMR IMR-4350 87.0 2,378
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches; accurate, compressed
400 Hawk RN IMR IMR-3031 78.0 2,316
Remarks: OAL: 3.53 inches
400 Hawk RN IMR IMR-4895 83.0 2,412
Remarks: OAL: 3.53 inches; accurate
400 Hawk RN IMR IMR-4064 84.0 2,422
Remarks: OAL: 3.53 inches; maximum
350 Barnes spitzer Alliant RL-12 88.0 2,564
Remarks: OAL: 3.52 inches; maximum
350 Barnes spitzer Winchester W-748 91.0 2,568
Remarks: OAL: 3.52 inches; mediocre accuracy
350 Barnes spitzer Alliant RL-15 89.0 2,631
Remarks: OAL: 3.52 inches; good load
350 Hawk RN IMR IMR-3031 79.0 2,399
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches
350 Hawk RN Hodgdon H-4895 87.0 2,591
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches; compressed
350 Hawk RN IMR IMR-4064 88.0 2,595
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches; good load
350 Hawk RN Accurate Arms AAC-2520 89.0 2,602
Remarks: OAL: 3.50 inches
300 Hawk RN Hodgdon H-4895 89.0 2,729
Remarks: OAL: 3.46 inches; maximum
300 Hawk RN Alliant RL-15 91.0 2,766
Remarks: OAL: 3.46 inches; near maximum
300 Hawk RN Accurate Arms AAC-2520 89.0 2,789
Remarks: OAL: 3.46 inches

Im wondering how does the 404 Jeffery case handle with high pressure.. does it easily strech?

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Alf,

You certainly had much to do with my interest in the 404 Jeffery . Since joining AR, I have followed, with great interest, the 404 related posts by you and others.

If I remember correctly you were putting together reference material on the 404 Jeffery, is this correct? Is this available?

Also, at what velocities will the 404 start to experience the "brass flow" you mentioned?

Watching Rusty's two 404s progress as well as learning about AR members building project just added to my interest in learning more about the 404 Jeffery. RIP has certainly added much information and looking forward to what he has to say.

Who else out there is building a 404? Interested to know how you are setting them up ie actions, barrels, sights, stocks, etc...

jjs, I have cases fired 5 times using 84gr IMR4831 & the 380grNF @ 2250fps. I have yet to trim a case.
vapo is right about the .375RUM cases. I bougth 20 just to see how they work. They function fine in my M70 (it was a .300RUM) but I would never use them for serious hunting.

I just had mine finished and will try to post some photos. Basically, it is:

1909 Argentine DWM M98 action
London Guns bottom metal
NECG 3 pos. safety
NECG steel trigger
Lothar Walther barrel
Barrel band swivel (NECG)
Banded front sight (NECG)
3 Leaf rear express sight (NECG)
EAW Quic Loc rings & mounts
Custom stock

After firing the rifle for the first time, I thought I had lug setback issues. However, it was just a head space issue that was quickly resolved by my gunsmith. It should be noted that I gave him a barreled action and he did not initially install the barrel and check the headspace. Anyway, everything is working well now.

The only concern I have is that the rifle now seems too pretty to take to Africa and beat up.

Tim

Thanks guys this is very helpful.

Shumba, sounds very nice..looking forward to your pics, soon! What length barrel? What type of wood?

Thanks!

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Alf,

Thanks for the information. One of my habits (acutally one of my better habits), I measure, inspect, and trim all my cases after each firing. However, I am not intending on surpassing 2350fps, with 400 grainers.

I have read that the 404 can reach 2500fps, with 400 grain bullets, although outside CIP specs, within the limits of new actions/rifles and brass??

I understand you have significant knowledge and experience with the 404 Jeffery, if you could point me in a direction (by PM, if you wish) to learn more about the history, etc on this cartridge I would appreciate it very much.

Thank you,

Jim

.

I have not used a 404 but I have used a 10.75x68 mauser.I think the vel. of the 404 is about 10 to 15% higher.I had real problems with the penetration of the 350 grain .423 slugs.Has anyone seen the same with the .404?

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JJS,
to put this in a nutshell,
once you get the 404 feeding, and if you have your reamer and dies made to the same spec, you will have little issue with it. the 404 will easily do 2400 FPS with modern powders, in fact, you can drive either pressure down or velocity up with the same.

Shumba,
sorry to hear you had a headspace issue, which if you recall, was the second thing I discussed, the first being a mis-match from brass and reamer.

the 10,75 (aka 10,5)x68 will match the ORIGINAL 404 loads, with modern powders and more pressure than the 404. That being said, the 404 can fully outpace the 10,75x68 using the same techinques.


On case heads...
the RUM brass has a larger case head (spec) than the 404, but the rim is slightly rebated (.018) BUT, when compared to the 404, it's only 008. which is basically a sheet of paper on either side. Yes, this will make good training, north american hunting, but it would be prudant to have the correct ammo and loads if you travel to africa. remember, you will have to build up the correct brass/loads.

However, the rum brass, as delivered from the factory, MATCHES the 404 spec for casehead, more or less, and a quick run through a sizing die bring thems right into spec.

again on the 10,75, it uses a ~.500 casehead ... that case head is basically only shared with the 9,3x64, the other x68 cases, and the 376 steyr. it is .040 smaller than the 404 and .050 than the SPEC of the rum cases

jeffe

I'm very interested in this cartridge. Are there any factory loadings for it? How does in field performance compare to 375 H&H? Similar? Thanks.

A-square loaded the ammunition for awhile (here's a link for purchase from Midway)

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Cat...ystring=653***690***

In Europe it's loaded by W Romey I believe but I think at this point it is best considered a reloader's caliber (Norma makes brass as well as Jamison in the USA) if you want to use premium bullets in a modern loading at 2300fps+. Do a search on this forum and you will see that the cartridge has been discussed many times. The cartridge is vastly superior in stopping power to the .375 H&H at short ranges (under 100 yards, it is after all a 400 grain bullet with a caliber of .423)but it is not a 200 yard cartridge, so much less versatile than the .375.

studdog there is no real comparison to the .375 vs the .404j. I'll disagree abit w/ wink, it is very capable out to 200yds w/ a 380grNF @ 2250fps. Drop is only about 4" w/ a 100yd zero. The .375h&h is a bit more versatile but the .404j is a better DG round IMO.
Factory ammos is supposedly still loaded by RWS, just not available here in the USA. Hopefully Federal or Hornady will pick up the gauntlet, if for no other reason than brass & bullets would become a bit mor affordable. I encourage everyone to send e-mails to Federal & Hornady & nudge them abit.

Alf:

Thank you for the history on the 404 Jeffery.

Guy's thanks for all the information.

Fred, I really like North Fork's products, Mike sent me some of the 404 380grain bullets (FNs and Softs) to take a look at, nice...

North Fork is making some 340? grain Softs. Have you used these? Might be nice on North American Game...and extend the range capabilities some..

For those who are concerned about using the .375 RUM brass, I have been doing it in my .404 Jeff without the slightest hiccup. It works great but, I am with those who say when you are going up against something that bites back, I would use the BELL and Norma cases I have to absolutely preclude problems in the field.

Oooooohhh, don't mention 340 grain bullets to Fred. It's a touchy subject

Hi Fred The new 40 cal material is supposed to ship May 1.

Not to hijack jjs thread, but I was looking back at some old posts regarding the "correct name" for the 404.

Is it the "404 Jeffery's Rimless Nitro Express"

Anyone with an old Jeffery's catalog to confirm?

Yes, Mike has promised me 340gr, I think I am 1st in line. RIP has used them quite a bit & I think they will make a great PG bullet loaded to 2500fps+. Until I get some, I'll have to work up loads w/ the 350gr Woodleigh, which is also a good bullet but the NF will excell past 200yds.
Thanks Mike, let me know when & I'll shoot you off an order. Maybe I should think about ordering more than 200?

Wink/fredj, thanks for the 404 info.Something intriques me about that cartridge. studdog

.

quote:

Originally posted by studdog:
Wink/fredj, thanks for the 404 info.Something intriques me about that cartridge. studdog

Studdog,

For some reason beyond the trimmer/slimmer rifle qualities, I am also "struck" by the 404 bug...don't really know why?

I just received two very nice Denli Turkish Blanks , TC1 posted them for me in the Gunsmith Forum, which one do you guys think would look good on a 404 Jeffery???

ah yes, the 404 bug...OUCH! damn bugs got me too. i got so many bugs i need a flea collar

Wink

RWS loads 404 jeffery with woodleigh solids and soft. http://www.rws-munition.de/de/jagd_patronen/anwendungsberater.htm?navid=10

Has Federal introduced their ammo?? Hornady customer representative stated in an email that during 2006 404 Jeffery “might†be produced. Let's hope it goes as planned

Cheers
/JOHAN

Jim,
Are you going to build this rifle yourself? If not, who are you considering ?

George,

I only wish I had the talent to build a rifle

Waffenfabrik Hein is going to build my two rifles...

www.rifleactions.com

I am still working on specs. and some of what I am having them do is a bit different for me and them

I sent you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

rip, he is the biggest 423 cal man here...no offense to any and all 423 lovers

Boomstick: Exactly how long has our good friend been a 423 cal owner ans shooter?

Methinks you should look back into the not so distant history and you will see he is but scarcely out of his diapers on this one. In fact it took a lot of coaxing from others here for him to relent on the 416 Rigby and bite on a 404

ALF,
True, just a few years now have I been a .404 Jeffery convert.

You have to carefully interpret what boomstick says sometimes. He is sort of like a "big booger on your index finger" if you encourage him in any way (thanks to lawndart for the analogy).

What boomstick meant to say was that I have the biggest and baddest .423 rifle discussed here lately, with my .423/.338 Lapua Magnum: 10" twist McGowen stainless 24" barrel on a Dakota 76 African with MPI stock.

I now think of the 1911 .416 Rigby as "Queen of the Hill," but the .404 Jeffery is the original 1905 cartridge that set the standard for all other bolt action rifles to compete with. It is now "King of the Hill" in my estimation.

I have an M70 and a CZ 550 Magnum in .404 Jeffery, the above .423 Lapua, and I fear I must soon have a .404 Dakota built on a Ruger M77 MK II Stainless to featherweight proportions, just to out-do Will and his flyweight .416 Taylor.

jjs,
.404 Jeffery loads with my McGowen 10" twist barrels of 24" length [Note that the Lothar Walther barrels of slower twist (14") have wider lands and seem to give higher pressures and velocities so if you use one of the LW barrels, you might need less powder to get to the pressure and velocity desired]:

Norma brass, GM215M/F215 Federal primer

Woodleigh 400 gr RNSP
Varget Extreme 81.0 grains
2401 fps
or
H4831SC 88.0 grains
2200 fps

North Fork 380 grain SP
Varget Extreme 83.0 grains
2525 fps

North Fork 340 grain SP
Varget Extreme 87.6 grains
2700 fps EXACTLY!!!

All sub MOA for 3 shots.

More to follow.

RIP,

Glad you showed up.

I did find some of your load data on the 404 Jeffery using Varget and a notation of your future testing of H 4350?

Have you any data on H 4350? It would seem to be a good fit with the Jeffery sized case.

Also, any changes in your Varget load data?

Thanks,

jjs,
I just added the loads above that are .404 Jeffery perfection. I have tried a few loads with the H4350 in the .404 Jeffery, and they fell somewhere between Varget and H4831SC: moderate

H4350 would be a good one, no doubt, for moderate pressure and velocity. But I am now interested more in a low-ball and a high-ball for the .404 Jeffery. I don't have access to my data now. The above loads are burnt into my brain.

I will cram the slightly larger .423/.338 Lapua Magnum full of H4350, as well as Varget and compare those.

The .423 Dakota is smaller than the .404 Jeffery.

The .404 Jeffery is hard to beat. Impossible to beat?

Hey, 101 years and still the original idea for a bolt action DGR is impossible to beat.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
jjs,
I just added the loads above that are .404 Jeffery perfection. I have tried a few loads with the H4350 in the .404 Jeffery, and they fell somewhere between Varget and H4831SC: moderate

H4350 would be a good one, no doubt, for moderate pressure and velocity. But I am now interested more in a low-ball and a high-ball for the .404 Jeffery. I don't have access to my data now. The above loads are burnt into my brain.

I will cram the slightly larger .423/.338 Lapua Magnum full of H4350, as well as Varget and compare those.

The .423 Dakota is smaller than the .404 Jeffery.

The .404 Jeffery is hard to beat. Impossible to beat?

Hey, 101 years and still the original idea for a bolt action DGR is impossible to beat.

RIP,

Thanks for that data. In my AR searchs I have seen some "estimated" pressure for your loads and the A-square manual has some pressure data but is there any acutal data available? I do have some data from Mike (North Fork) for H-4831sc that includes some pressure data...good velocity and pressure is moderate..just H-4831sc will be compressed at highest velocities.

Did you ever convince lawndart to do testing, I saw posts where he was thinking about doing some 404 Jeffery pressure test?

It seems the 404 Jeffery is a very good option for a DGR given today's powder and bullets, best of all it can be made somewhat lighter and trimmer than a 416 Rigby.

Why in the heck is it not more poplar...possibly it will become so...

I may just have to add one more to the popluation

Appreciate any further help you can provide!

Thanks again,