Oops.....The latest real world data can be a bitch.




Max loads with identical powders:

IMR 8208 XBR

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2600 fps

VARGET

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2600 fps

WIN 748

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2650 fps

.

Hornady is notorious for overstating their velocities. It doesn't surprise me.

One can see that must variation between individual rifles of either caliber.

But, since it's a short action, a 375 Ruger will cost thousands of dollars less, will be an inch or two shorter and weigh several pounds less than a 375 H&H Magnum. That will enable one to afford to shoot one and will avoid future back surgery from carrying around a heavy gun.

And why would Hornady overstate the velocity of handloads? I can see no motivaton for them to do so. They sell loaded ammo. If they were trying to deceive they would understate handload velocity to make their ammunition look better.

I never shoot 250 grain bullets in an H+H. What's the 300 grain bullet comparison? That would be more telling.

Given the case capacities involved I can't see a legitimate reason for the two not to be equal.

Perhaps it has something to do with the test rifles. For example, comparing a 25" or 26" barreled 375 H&H caliber rifle with the 23" barreled 375 Ruger Hawkeye African might account for it. But it does give one pause to consider two things. First, how little difference there really is between the performance of the two. A smidgen more powder capacity can only give a smidgen more velocity. Second, Ruger has built a lot of hype around their shorter cartridge only to throw away any performance advantage by sticking it in their self-lauded short rifle.

What's the use of having a "short" 23" barrel when you stick an extra 2" of muzzle brake on it anyway? Where is the magical short action advantage?

OAL of the 24" barreled 375 H&H Winchester Safari Express with 13.75" LOP = 44.75"

OAL of Ruger's 23" barreled 375 Hawkeye African with 13.5" LOP = 44.9"

.

I find the muzzle brake on the 375 ruger DG rifle is bit ridiculous. Not that much recoil in the 375's.

I don't think 1 or 200 fps make any difference to the animal when shot. Ruger is one of many that tried to improve the performance of the .375. The old H&H keeps on marching along doing what it has done for all these years.

Dave

Grummy,

I think the difference is in the mind of the beholder.

I just measured my little fingernail. To side to side, the finger (nail area sideways) is about 3/8ths of an inch.

I priced both at a couple distributors, the difference is about what it costs to take your wife, or your girlfriend, but not both at the same time; to a decent restaurant for dinner.

Unless you just want one, I see no reason to buy the Ruger.

If, on the other hand, you want more speed, rechamber your 375 H&H to the Improved version. Or buy a 700 in 375 RUM. Elmer Keith, once asked about the difference between the 357 and 44 Magnums was quoted, "I can always download the 44 to 357 power levels...".

The Ruger is at a dead end for more velocity.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Oops.....The latest real world data can be a bitch.




Max loads with identical powders:

IMR 8208 XBR

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2600 fps

VARGET

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2600 fps

WIN 748

375 H&H - 2700 fps

375 Ruger - 2650 fps

Hornady should be ashamed of putting out such poor data. They are doing handloaders a disservice. I don't for a minute believe that it is responsible "real world data." For some 'real world data' check out "Real Guns" website on the 375Ruger.

How bad is the Hornady data? they list 2600fps for the 250gn in the 375Ruger with "high velocity producing" Reloder 17. That is a measly 3750ftlbs. Less than a 338WM and about the level of a a 9.3x62. Is the whole Hornady manual that bad or just certain calibres like the 375Ruger?
Maybe the whole thing is just a typo and the 375Ruger pages were supposed to be watermarked with "Reduced Loads" slapped accross the page.

I like the Real Guns website. But since when do "visible pressure signs" provide an accurate indication of pressure. Hornady uses pressure testing equipment not "visible pressure signs" when they work up loads. Unfortunately, it is quite common for handloaders relying on "visual signs" of pressure to overload their cartridges. The most famous example of this is some of the "visual signs" loads worked up and published by the famous P.O. Ackley and later checked against actual pressure testing equipment. Also, consider Real Guns' own results with factory ammunition, "As a points of reference, Hornady Heavy Magnum 270 grain 375 H&H ammo checked out at 2907 fps. ...Hornady factory 270 grain 375 Ruger ammo ran 2850 fps".

I cannot believe Hornady would have "dumbed down" the Ruger cartridge. To me that is absurd. We know the Ruger round has a little more case capacity but that can only give a "little more" velocity - unless the Ruger is run at higher pressures. Real Guns editor Joe D'Alessandro even said, "The thing I did not find in the Ruger's chamber was room for a capacity of any consequence greater than the 375 H&H". Yes, greater capacity but not of "any consequence".

Nevertheless, some people make the wild claim that the 375 Ruger produces 200 fps more muzzle velocity than the 375 H&H. When writing "About that 200 fps more..." D'Alessandro says, "The H&H operates at 62,000+ PSI; considerably more than after dinner gas levels. In estimating how much more pressure would be required to yield another 200 fps, I matched the velocity of Remington factory 375 H&H loads with 75.4 grains of H414, at just about maximum pressure and got 2560 fps. Pressure required to generate an additional 200 fps surpassed the 94,000 PSI mark! I don't care what special powder a factory has blended, the 200 fps more reported for the 375 Ruger, I believe, exists only in the minds and computers of overzealous Ruger friendly writers and Internet rumors. I would be willing to bet the 375 Ruger produces the same, or perhaps a bit less muzzle velocity than the 375 H&H."

We see that is exactly what he got, "the same, or perhaps a bit less muzzle velocity than the 375 H&H" using Hornady factory ammunition loaded to SAAMI specifications. That is because, for his cartridge comparison, D'Alessandro was shooting the 375 H&H out of a rifle with a 25" barrel and the 375 Ruger out of a rifle with a 23" barrel. If the barrel lengths had been the same we surely would expect the Ruger round to produce a little more velocity than the H&H round, a little. But the difference is hardly worth a hill of beans, and it goes away completely, when you shorten the Ruger rifle to make it more "handy".

The 375 Ruger is a round brilliantly designed to allow one to get 375 H&H class velocities out of a standard length action with a standard length magazine. It does that quite well. In that regard it is much like the 284 Winchester. Other than that .......

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The 375 Ruger is a round brilliantly designed to allow one to get 375 H&H class velocities out of a standard length action with a standard length magazine. It does that quite well. In that regard it is much like the 284 Winchester. Other than that .......

Throw in controlled round feeding, quality scope rings, stainless steel 20 inch barrel/action and a Hogue all weather stock at a price point of $700 (Alaskan Model)and you have a near perfect hunting rifle ready for anything, anywhere. It makes it kind of hard to worry about 100 fps either way!

Grenadier, most of what you said I am in agreement with.
Yes, pressure tested data over visual signs is always recommended. I don't believe that the Hornady data qualified. Reloder 17 in a 375Ruger does not max out at 3750 ftlbs!!!

quote:

How bad is the Hornady data? they list 2600fps for the 250gn in the 375Ruger with "high velocity producing" Reloder 17. That is a measly 3750ftlbs. Less than a 338WM and about the level of a a 9.3x62.

Something in that Hornady item is/was not right.

I do love that neither of the recipees shown includes barrel length.

It could well be the .375 Ruger is a 20" barrel and the H&H is a 26"...

Am I the only one who noticed that in every case where the same powder is used that the Ruger is loaded with less powder than the H&H even though the Ruger has a greater powder capacity?

I personally believe the information to be virtually useless except for Internet discussions.

List the barrel length, twist rate, and Piezo PSI pressure for the loadings and it would be useful.

I did visit a few different powder websites and found the comparable data virtually useless as well even when barrel length and pressure is listed because different manufacturers bullets were used.

I did find the Barnes information somewhat useful in the that they list the barrel length (24" for both), the twist rate (1:12 for both) the primer used (Fed 215 for both), and the case used (R-P for 375 H&H, Hornady for 375 Ruger).

Unfortunately even then there was only a single bullet that listed the same powder -
350gr BND SLD & RL-15 powder:
375 H&H - 69.5gr = 2449fps @ 103% load density
375 Ruger - 69.5gr = 2425fps @ 97% load density
So what this tells me is that the H&H won over the Ruger by a grand total 24fps by using a 6% greater powder density. No more, no less.

And I even consider Barnes' data virtually worthless because the Piezo PSI pressure is missing.

The case capacity of the standard 375 H&H is ~95 grs of H20, for the 375 Ruger it's ~99 grs of H20 - that is, only ~4% difference.

All other things being equal, the 375 Ruger should produce slightly - very slightly - better performance. Other factors, such as barrel differences, free-bore differences, etc. could easily trump this slight increase in case capacity. Certainly, the game animal will not notice the difference.

All that said, the two are - IMO - essentially equal.

Except, in Africa - should you be separated from your ammo - the outfitter will very likely have some 375 H&H ammo for you to use, which may not be the case for 375 Ruger.

Bottomline: IMO the edge goes to the 375 H&H.

AIU--

Your details get the thread back on track, and several have pointed out that it started on a bad foot.

On capacities, Ammo guide lists the difference of capacity between the two at 6% (89.1//94.7), which is practically the same as your 4%.

And the 4-6% allows someone to use a shorter barrel in a Ruger with the expectation of equal velocity to a larger rifle in H&H, should they desire.

The problem with the thread, though, was in quoting data that was comparing apples with oranges, or as Jim points out above, unknowns with unknowns. With only a 4-6% difference in capacity, it is very easy for anyone to put together "data" that becomes "counterintuitive" and in fact, misleading. Hornady's data profile on the Ruger is "mindless" at best. It certainly gives a false picture by itself. The amazing thing is that Hornady was one of the developers of the 375Ruger, so why did they do such a disservice to their own round?

As for real world choices, handloaders prefer their own ammo. It is part of the hunting experience. The ammo has been tuned to give confidence out to and over 300 yards, hopefully. Using borrowed ammo means restricting the range of the hunt considerably until that unknown ammo is known, and then working with the new parameters. So put a box of home-loads in the rifle case with the rifle. I recommend taking the rifle and ammo of one's choice, even if one ends up using a borrowed rifle, which may be a 375H&H, though someone in the Hunt report section was recently handed a 375Ruger loaded with 200gnGSC's. Africa is changing.

416,

I would not get caught putting a box of loaded ammunition in the same case with a rifle.

If you are lucky, US Customs finds it, and you face charges/confiscation here. If customs someplace like Zim catches it instead, you may need a lot of money to make bail, and the rifle and ammunition are gone forever.

I have only been to Africa three times, so my experience is limited. But my PH in Zim had 375 H&H ammunition in camp, as did the gentleman I hunted with twice in RSA. With the old H&H I could have been resighted in in minutes with most of a box to spare.

I lead a sheltered life here in Idaho, but why take chances on a hunt you may have $10K to $40K invested in?

Rich

Idaho,

TSA allows ammunition to be packed separately within a rifle container.

I recommend flying with a firearm friendly airline and triple checking if landing in a European city like Amsterdam, London, or wherever. Ethiopian have been consistently good (I've used them 4 times, maybe again later this year) and they now fly to LAX besides Washinton DC. I once had a little problem transferring in JFK, NY, from a national flight to an internationational flight, but it got sorted out with patience and a 45 minute wait while they found the baggage.

what is illegal is to have bullets in the rifle itself. That is a "loaded weapon".

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Grummy,

I think the difference is in the mind of the beholder.

I just measured my little fingernail. To side to side, the finger (nail area sideways) is about 3/8ths of an inch.

I priced both at a couple distributors, the difference is about what it costs to take your wife, or your girlfriend, but not both at the same time; to a decent restaurant for dinner.

Unless you just want one, I see no reason to buy the Ruger.

If, on the other hand, you want more speed, rechamber your 375 H&H to the Improved version. Or buy a 700 in 375 RUM. Elmer Keith, once asked about the difference between the 357 and 44 Magnums was quoted, "I can always download the 44 to 357 power levels...".

The Ruger is at a dead end for more velocity.

Rich

I wouldn't have a 375 Ruger unless it was given to me and then I'd probably not shoot it and find some sucker to buy it.

If I need more velocity than my 375 H&H Magnums can give, I have a 378 Weatherby and it doesn't have a stupid brake on the end of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
416,

I would not get caught putting a box of loaded ammunition in the same case with a rifle.

If you are lucky, US Customs finds it, and you face charges/confiscation here.
Rich

you irrational hatred of the 375 ruger clouds your judgement/memory, AGAIN

Your position above is DEAD wrong..
Allow my to help

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/tra...earms-and-ammunition

quote:

Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber for rifle or pistol and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as described in the packing guidelines above.

Is the use of GMX mono-metal bullets the issue here? Are they not the variable in the load that causes high pressure compared to same weight cup/core bullets?

Are not these bullets long for weight and thusly responsible for wasted capacity and lowered velocities?

Just asking, I don't use such bullets so my experience is limited.

I think Hornady did a good job when it introduced the useful and proven cartridges like 9.3x74, 450-400 NE or 416 Rigby. But to my mind the 375 Ruger is neither a better cartridge design nor more practical, taking in account the arguments of Grenadier and comparable power. I am convinced, the Ruger cartridge will slowly disappear from the market, despite the fact that the current local stores of Alaska are plentifully stocked with this ammunition, as Phil S. had stated recently...

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
Is the use of GMX mono-metal bullets the issue here? Are they not the variable in the load that causes high pressure compared to same weight cup/core bullets?

Are not these bullets long for weight and thusly responsible for wasted capacity and lowered velocities?

Just asking, I don't use such bullets so my experience is limited.

Because many of the mono metal bullets are built with driving bands, while others are made of soft alloys of copper, it's hard to say if they would cause higher pressure. In some bullets it actually lowers pressures and you have to use more powder to get them up to speed.

A 250 grain mono metal bullet should be about as long as a 300 grain cup and core bullet.
Mono metal bullets taking up more space in the case should not be an issue until you get into the compressed loads.
I shoot mono metals in weights of 230 grains to 300 grains in my 375 H&H without any loading issues.

I am an old guy, I like to use old tools.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Idaho,

TSA allows ammunition to be packed separately within a rifle container.

I recommend flying with a firearm friendly airline and triple checking if landing in a European city like Amsterdam, London, or wherever. Ethiopian have been consistently good (I've used them 4 times, maybe again later this year) and they now fly to LAX besides Washinton DC. I once had a little problem transferring in JFK, NY, from a national flight to an internationational flight, but it got sorted out with patience and a 45 minute wait while they found the baggage.

what is illegal is to have bullets in the rifle itself. That is a "loaded weapon".

416T,

I wish what you're saying were uniformly applied to individual airline policy, but on my last 4 trips to Africa the airline policy was as Steve Turner stipulated...

"Ammo must be packed separately from your gun case, inside a hard sided container, in your clothing suitcase. Regards, Steve Turner"

Also, when I've flown to Africa, I've had limited carrier choices and I had to go with what I could get. TSA doesn't fly to Africa and they don't set the policies for all the carriers.

My next trip - to begin August 30th - will require I pack the ammo separately from the gun case. Irritating but true. On this upcoming trip, since I'm taking my 416 RUM, if my bags get separated, I'll be shooting a 375 H&H or 416 Rem Mag - the two available camp guns. Both will work fine, that is, if I shoot them properly.

Mmmm... mesquite beans.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:


I am an old guy, I like to use old tools.

Yup-AZ

that is one fine looking hunting rifle. I wish that rifle could talk.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:


I am an old guy, I like to use old tools.

That's what it's all about! Not some plastic/stainless/die cast POS with the charisma of a weed-eater!

Well, several Buff didn't quite stand up to applaud being whacked by my 375H&H.. And two Buff didn't seem disappointed at all when whacked by my 375 Ruger Alaskan.. Go figure.. No accounting for taste I guess..

I can tell you this though, I worry a lot less about my Ruger Alaskan in transit than I do my H&H... Makes for a much more relaxed travel experiance.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:


I am an old guy, I like to use old tools.

Very nice well used rifle. Sliding trigger safety and white line recoil pad put the build somewhere in late 1950's through early 1970s.

The 375 H&H is like the hot rodder who likes model T fords. It is not better than the new cars being produced. It is just what he is familiar with and he wants to stick with that platform. Nothing wrong with that since it makes him happy. Is it as good as the newer offerings or as efficient? Absolutely not.

If the Ruger and H&H had been introduced at the same time the Holland would be as dead as charity. The only advantage the old Holland has is distribution and number of rifles chambered for it. This in itself is a major obstacle the Ruger may never overcome. It is the same reason our military is stuck with the enemic 5.56 nato round.

I think the 375 H&H is a capable round within the ballistic parameters it was designed for and the cartridge design that was in vogue at its inception. The exaggerated taper and belt are not necessary any longer.

Is Ruger just trying to sell guns by offering a new chambering? Of course they are. Is the 375 Ruger a better design than the 375 H&H? Yes without a doubt it is. Is it capabale of better performance than the Holland? Absolutely. Should everyone abandon their H&H for a 375 Ruger? Only a fool would contemplate such idiocy.

The bottom line is the 375 Ruger is a more capable chambering in a much more limited platform with even more limited distribution. The Holland has a full century headstart and oodles of romance on its side. If one posseses a 375 H&H there is little benefit to changing calibers. If one does not own a 375 H&H then the 375 Ruger makes a much more compelling rifle. Why drive a model T when you can have a Porsche. I chose the 375 Ruger based on it's ballistic merits.....not romance or tradition.

Can someone post pics of the Hornady manual data pages for the 300grain bullets for better comparison for the big bore forum?

CAPOWARD, I show this old FN often to try and fill out its' history Serial # starts 5L so '65 I gather. Here are the facts as I know them supported by letters from both parties. I purchased 15 years ago or so in Houston. The dealer said the rifle went to Africa new with a sister in .458WM. When the client left he gave both to the PH. The PH kept the .375 and sold the .458. This rifle was used as a loner for clients that had not brought a medium/heavy rifle. The PH retired and moved to Belize, and the dealer sold what he brought back. As promised I received a letter from the PH verifying the history and a extensive list of game taken with it. DON'T SHOOT--DON'T SHOOT hahaha-- in several moves I have misplaced the letter, I know, major bad. I still may find it in my stuff but if the story sounds familiar to anyone let me know please.

I always find it amazing how those on the forum, who pretend to possess knowlege about guns, will then take a page from the anti-gunners handbook and use carefully picked information to "prove" their point, while astudiously avoiding all the other data.
We all know that a single example, whether it is a bullet's performance on game or the velocity from one rifle, proves nothing meaningful.

Although it was designed to fit in a standard length action, the 375 Ruger is a larger case than the H&H, so assuming equal pressures and equal barrel length it will give a slightly higher velocity. Take a look at the Hornady ballistics with thier 300 gr bullets, or at the Nosler and Swift manuals.

If someone prefers the "nostalgia" or looks of the old H&H rounds then by all means use them. They certainly have a well proven track record. But don't try telling the rest of us that "nostalgia" somehow makes them better.

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:
CAPOWARD, I show this old FN often to try and fill out its' history Serial # starts 5L so '65 I gather. Here are the facts as I know them supported by letters from both parties. I purchased 15 years ago or so in Houston. The dealer said the rifle went to Africa new with a sister in .458WM. When the client left he gave both to the PH. The PH kept the .375 and sold the .458. This rifle was used as a loner for clients that had not brought a medium/heavy rifle. The PH retired and moved to Belize, and the dealer sold what he brought back. As promised I received a letter from the PH verifying the history and a extensive list of game taken with it. DON'T SHOOT--DON'T SHOOT hahaha-- in several moves I have misplaced the letter, I know, major bad. I still may find it in my stuff but if the story sounds familiar to anyone let me know please.

Good into. Thanks!

FWIW, according to the latest Nosler reloading manual (#7), the .375 Ruger edges the .375 H&H by 100-150 fps... with two more inches of barrel.

.375 H&H - 24" Lilja barrel, Nosler cases
.375 Ruger - 26" Pac-Nor barrel, Hornady cases

260 grain
.375 H&H - 73.0 gr RL15 - 2,793 fps
.375 Ruger - 76.0 gr RL15 - 2,883 fps (+90 fps)

.375 H&H - 78.5 gr W760 - 2,747 fps
.375 Ruger - 79.0 gr W760 - 2,876 fps (+129 fps)

Fastest Load
.375 H&H - 73.0 gr RL15 - 2,793 fps
.375 Ruger - 88.0 gr Hunter - 2,941 fps (+148 fps)

300 grain
.375 H&H - 68.0 gr RL15 - 2,490 fps
.375 Ruger - 72.0 gr RL15 - 2,619 fps (+129 fps)

.375 H&H - 78.0 gr W760 - 2,600 fps
.375 Ruger - 73.0 gr W760 - 2,613 fps (+13 fps)

Fastest load
.375 H&H - 78.0 gr W760 - 2,600 fps
.375 Ruger - 83.0 gr IMR4350 - 2,715 fps (+115 fps)

I generally buy the Rifle--if its an appropriate calibre. IE 270 Win vs 270 WSM or in this case 375 H&H VS 375 Ruger. I don't like Ruger rifles, just personal experience, and Love M70's-so i am much more interested in the Win M-70Alaskan than any Ruger--!00 fps doesn't mean anything at those levels.