quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:
FWIW, according to the latest Nosler reloading manual (#7), the .375 Ruger edges the .375 H&H by 100-150 fps... with two more inches of barrel ...

WOW. Very interesting. But, the more I think about it, I wonder how many Buffaloes have read the latest Nosler reloading manual? I think at the end of the day either cartridge will do a hell of a number on Mr. Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:
The 375 H&H is like the hot rodder who likes model T fords. It is not better than the new cars being produced. It is just what he is familiar with and he wants to stick with that platform. Nothing wrong with that since it makes him happy. Is it as good as the newer offerings or as efficient? Absolutely not.

If the Ruger and H&H had been introduced at the same time the Holland would be as dead as charity. The only advantage the old Holland has is distribution and number of rifles chambered for it. This in itself is a major obstacle the Ruger may never overcome. It is the same reason our military is stuck with the enemic 5.56 nato round.

I think the 375 H&H is a capable round within the ballistic parameters it was designed for and the cartridge design that was in vogue at its inception. The exaggerated taper and belt are not necessary any longer.

Is Ruger just trying to sell guns by offering a new chambering? Of course they are. Is the 375 Ruger a better design than the 375 H&H? Yes without a doubt it is. Is it capabale of better performance than the Holland? Absolutely. Should everyone abandon their H&H for a 375 Ruger? Only a fool would contemplate such idiocy.

The bottom line is the 375 Ruger is a more capable chambering in a much more limited platform with even more limited distribution. The Holland has a full century headstart and oodles of romance on its side. If one posseses a 375 H&H there is little benefit to changing calibers. If one does not own a 375 H&H then the 375 Ruger makes a much more compelling rifle. Why drive a model T when you can have a Porsche. I chose the 375 Ruger based on it's ballistic merits.....not romance or tradition.

^^^^
x2

That reloading data posted is FOS

This is the load I BACKED DOWN to for ACCURACY



I reached 2950 with the 270 TSX and 3000 with the 260 Accubond and still reusing all cases, i.e. primer pockets tight

It’s difficult to compare reloading manual data, because you don’t know, if all other variables (e.g., PSI, freebore, etc) are being keep equal.

DoubleTap ammo company produces good high-end - near maximum - hunting ammo, which is loaded to attract buyers, but with acceptable safety margins to minimize liability and keep lawyers away.

Below is their data for the 375 H&H and 375 Ruger.

To attract customers, they are motivated to load both cartridges to their maximum “safe” performance potential.

For all practical purposes, these two are ballistic twins, which they should be, because they only differ by ~4% in case capacity – with a slight edge in size and performance going to the Ruger (IMO, ~25 fps given that all other variables are equal).

DoubleTap Commercially Available Ammo

375 H&H Magnum Standard (~95 grs H20 case capacity)

Caliber : .375 H&H Magnum. Bullet : 235gr Barnes TSX. Ballistics : 3100fps - 5014 ft./lbs. - 24.0" bbl. Winchester Model 70

Caliber : .375 H&H Magnum. Bullet : 260gr Nosler Accubond. Ballistics : 2900fps - 4857 ft./lbs. - 24.0" bbl. Winchester Model 70

Caliber : .375 H&H Magnum. Bullet : 270gr Barnes TSX Lead Free. Ballistics : 2795fps - 4700 ft./lbs. - 24.0" bbl. Winchester Model 70

Caliber : .375 H&H Magnum. Bullet : 300gr Nosler Partition. Ballistics : 2650fps - 4680 ft./lbs. - 24.0" bbl. Winchester Model 70

375 Rugar Magnum (~99 grs case capacity)

Caliber : .375 Ruger. Bullet : 235gr Barnes Triple Shock X LEad Free. Ballistics : 3100fps - 5014 ft./lbs. - 23.0" bbl. Ruger M77 African, 2950fps from a 20" Ruger Alaskan

Caliber : .375 Ruger. Bullet : 260gr Nosler Accubond. Ballistics : 2900fps - 4857 ft./lbs. - 23.0" Ruger 77 African, 2750fps from a 20" Ruger Alaskan

Caliber : .375 Ruger. Bullet : 270gr Barnes TSX LEAD FREE. Ballistics : 2825fps - 4700 ft./lbs. - 23.0" bbl. Ruger 77 African, 2665fps from a 20" Ruger Alaskan

Woods,

"I reached 2950 with the 270 TSX and 3000 with the 260 Accubond and still reusing all cases, i.e. primer pockets tight."

Quickload (using a "weight factor" of 0.5) suggests that to achieve these extreme velocities with a 375 Rugar 23" barrel would require PSIs in the ~75,000 PSI range - IMO you're close to popping a primer or getting a stuck case. It would only take a slight "excursion."

I'm happy with just the factory loads. The older model Alaskan Stainless with the Hogue stock is the one I like, in 375 and 416 Ruger. Nice, inexpensive, weatherproof big bore just made for Alaska.

AIU,

some of those statistics are off. A 270gn bullet at 2795 fps and at 2825 fps do not both produce 4700 ftlbs.

Likewise, a 3" reduction in barrel length does not usually produce a 150 fps reduction. 3" would normally produce a 75-90fps loss.

So I take the DoubleTap statistics with a rather large grain of salt. always useful to look, but not to be taken as a direct representation of the physics involved.

...some of those statistics are off. A 270gn bullet at 2795 fps and at 2825 fps do not both produce 4700 ftlbs. (I COPIED THEM DIRECTLY OFF THEIR WEB PAGE, BUT YOU'RE CORRECT 2795 FPS RESULTS IN 4683 FT# AND THE 2825 RESULTS IN 4784 - STILL NOT MUCH DIFFERENCE.)

Likewise, a 3" reduction in barrel length does not usually produce a 150 fps reduction. 3" would normally produce a 75-90fps loss. (USUALLY THERE IS A GAIN OR LOSS OF 25-30 FPS PER INCH OF BARREL LENGTH, LONGER OR SHORTER RESPECTIVELY. UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE DOUBLE TAP LAB THEY'RE LIKELY USING AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BARREL FOR THE 26" VS 23"DATA AND IDIOSYNCRATIC BARREL DIFFERENCES COULD EXPLAIN THEIR DROP OF 50 FPS PER INCH - BUT WHO KNOWS FOR SURE.)

So I take the DoubleTap statistics with a rather large grain of salt. always useful to look, but not to be taken as a direct representation of the physics involved. (IMO, YOU'RE BEING TOO SEVERE IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, BESIDES YOUR BIAS IS CLEARLY TOWARDS THE 375 RUGER, BUT I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND THERE CAN'T BE MUCH DIFFERENCE THE 375 H&H AND 375 RUGER, GIVEN THE FACT THEIR CASE CAPACITES ARE SO SIMILAR. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE DOUBLETAP DATA SHOWS.)

quote:

(IMO, YOU'RE BEING TOO SEVERE IN YOUR JUDGEMENT, BESIDES YOUR BIAS IS CLEARLY TOWARDS THE 375 RUGER, BUT I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND THERE CAN'T BE MUCH DIFFERENCE THE 375 H&H AND 375 RUGER, GIVEN THE FACT THEIR CASE CAPACITES ARE SO SIMILAR.)

Basically, I consider the 375Ruger to be practically equivalent to the 375H&H, with a theoretical average velocity advantage of about 50 fps, other things being equal.

I'm willing to trade the 50fps for a shorter 20-22" barrel rifle.

The Ruger round is capable of producing a little more velocity because it has a little more case capacity. That is not in dispute. But using slow burning powders in a cartridge as large as the 375 Ruger can result in some of the powder burning outside a short barrel. Therefore, powders with appropriate burning rates should be used to get optimal performance. And the same goes for the 375 H&H.

What nobody has mentioned is that if you use appropriate powders in a short barreled 375 H&H rifle the velocities will be very close to those produced by the Ruger round from the same barrel length and the two cartridges perform closer than when comparing velocities from 24" or 26" barreled rifles. Whatever velocity edge the Ruger round has would diminish when both cartridges are fired out of carbine length barrels and appropriate powders are used. The 375 Ruger is no more a magic carbine round than is the 375 H&H and, in fact, because it holds a bit less powder, the 375 H&H is better suited for carbine barrels than the 375 Ruger.

Ruger, and now others, offer some very inexpensive rifles for the 375 Ruger cartridge. Some of those rifles are available with stainless steel and laminated or synthetic stocks. To my way of thinking that is the benefit of the Ruger cartridge - readily available in cheap, weather resistant materials. But if those same rifles were offered in 375 H&H there would be no tangible advantage to one over the other regardless of barrel length.

IMO a major advantage is that you can take any Win Mag action and rebarrel to a 375Ruger. My 375 Ruger has a PacNor 3 groove 24" barrel and it was rebarreled off a cheap Winchester push feed 264 Win Mag.

Typical of Win Mags, it had a shoulder gap of .041" on new cases (guess you guys are going to call this belted case characteristic an advantage huh?) so I rebarreled it to something with only .002" headspace.

Oh, and very minimal case stretch also, unlike the 375 H&H case

I wouldn't even think about shooting a 250gr. Bullets out of the 375 caliber. If I wanted to shoot a 250gr. Bullet I would of gotten a 338 caliber. For me shooting the my 375 Ruger I will shoot heavier bullets like a 300gr. And 350gr. Bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The Ruger round is capable of producing a little more velocity because it has a little more case capacity. That is not in dispute.
if you use appropriate powders in a short barreled 375 H&H rifle the velocities will be very close to those produced by the Ruger round from the same barrel length

the two cartridges perform closer than when comparing velocities from 24" or 26" barreled rifles.
Whatever velocity edge the Ruger round has would diminish when both cartridges are fired out of carbine length barrels

. The 375 Ruger is no more a magic carbine round than is the 375 H&H and, in fact, because it holds a bit less powder, the 375 H&H is better suited for carbine barrels than the 375 Ruger.

You said a lot but you could have stopped after the first two sentences.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Ruger, and now others, offer some very inexpensive rifles for the 375 Ruger cartridge. Some of those rifles are available with stainless steel and laminated or synthetic stocks. To my way of thinking that is the benefit of the Ruger cartridge - readily available in cheap, weather resistant materials. But if those same rifles were offered in 375 H&H there would be no tangible advantage to one over the other regardless of barrel length.

and

quote:

Yes, that is another thing it has going for it. But if you are rebarreling a model 70 from a magnum caliber to 375 H&H then there really isn't that much involved in altering the action for the longer round is there?

Actually, there are two things going for a Ruger rebarrel.
One, many standard actions cannot handle an H&H -length magazine.
and Two, if a Model 70 is being rebarreled and it is capable of an H&H length cartridge in its magazine, then the Ruger-length rebarreling allows one to use longer, high-BC bullets.

Because of that, I would recommend that a 375Ruger rebarreling on a Win70 action should ask for a 10" twist instead of the standard 12" .375" twist. That will allow the use of the super-high BC bullets in the CEB MTH line. We're talking .800+ BC with excellent monolithic terminal ballistics..

I've got the .375 H&H and I'm content with it although I've strongly considered rechambering it to .375 Wby to flatten out the trajectory a bit. However, I don't know if I'd ever be able to really tell the difference between the two.....or the .375 Ruger. One may have to go to a .378 Wby to actually tell a difference. Plus, of course, the old H&H is steeped in mystique & nostalgia that old sappy suckers like me tend to fall for. With that said, if I didn't already have the H&H, I would take a long look at the .375 Ruger because it may very well be the best .375 ever made.....and the .416 Ruger seems pretty tough to beat as a brown bear rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by scutulatus:


I am an old guy, I like to use old tools.

Very nice indeed! I bet when you aim that handsome rifle at a bear or buff they just lay down and die simply out of respect!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
416,

I would not get caught putting a box of loaded ammunition in the same case with a rifle.

If you are lucky, US Customs finds it, and you face charges/confiscation here. If customs someplace like Zim catches it instead, you may need a lot of money to make bail, and the rifle and ammunition are gone forever.

I have only been to Africa three times, so my experience is limited. But my PH in Zim had 375 H&H ammunition in camp, as did the gentleman I hunted with twice in RSA. With the old H&H I could have been resighted in in minutes with most of a box to spare.

I lead a sheltered life here in Idaho, but why take chances on a hunt you may have $10K to $40K invested in?

Rich

Good points. The H&H has been a perfect round since 1912. The only reason the Ruger exists is to sell rifles for Ruger.

Sure glad my wife got a Ruger. Her ammo will be fine. We might load it down to 300 levels (200GSC at 2800), but it's her call.

She really likes the little short Alaskan package, left-hand. She hates holding my big CZ.

quote:

Good points. The H&H has been a perfect round since 1912. The only reason the Ruger exists is to sell rifles for Ruger.

Then using that logic the the only reason the H&H exists was it was meant to sell rifles for H&H. And Ruger sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past century.

They are both superb hunting rounds and if you prefer slightly longer, heavier, more expensive rifles with "nostalgia" then get the H&H and if you are pragmatic and just want a serious hunting tool then get the Ruger.
Any game shot with either will never notice the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Good points. The H&H has been a perfect round since 1912. The only reason the Ruger exists is to sell rifles for Ruger.

Then using that logic the the only reason the H&H exists was it was meant to sell rifles for H&H. And Ruger sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past century.

They are both superb hunting rounds and if you prefer slightly longer, heavier, more expensive rifles with "nostalgia" then get the H&H and if you are pragmatic and just want a serious hunting tool then get the Ruger.
Any game shot with either will never notice the difference.

+1

I will bet the 375 ruger will be the only 375 clones that survives the test of time.

The main reason - you can buy a 375 Ruger for as little as $599 made by Ruger and even cheaper made by Mossberg.

That alaskan ruger is a damn good rifle and I am really tempted to buy a third one from cdnn on clearance.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
They are both superb hunting rounds and if you prefer slightly longer, heavier, more expensive rifles with "nostalgia" then get the H&H and if you are pragmatic and just want a serious hunting tool then get the Ruger.

Surely you are not suggesting that all those 375 H&H caliber Winchester 70s, Ruger 77s, Remington 700s, and countless custom and semi-custom rifles, including those made by H&H themselves, were/are not serious hunting tools.

Would you consider SAKO's 375 H&H offerings in a 21" barreled model 85 Brown Bear with laminated stock, 21" barreled stainless steel model 85 Kodiak with laminated stock, or 24" barreled model 85 Stainless Synthetic as longer, heavier rifles with "nostalgia" and not as serious hunting tools? I will point out that the first two of those in 375 H&H are 41.9" in OAL making them a full 3" shorter than Ruger's Hawkeye African in 375 Ruger.

People have been making short barreled consumer grade rifles and carbines chambered in 375 H&H for scores of years. They have also been available in stainless and synthetic for over a dozen years.

Since the 375 H&H holds a bit less powder than the 375 Ruger it is just as suitable, or perhaps even more suitable, for short barreled rifles than the Ruger round. When it comes to shorter and handier rifles the comparison picture I posted above was created to scale and you can see that the Ruger "short" rifle is actually a fraction of an inch longer than a Winchester Model 70 with a 24" barrel and a longer length of pull. So, with that thought in mind, perhaps Ruger should be selling 375 Ruger rifles with 26" barrels as an improvement on 24" barreled 375 H&H rifles.

All this is just proof of how marketing can bend minds away from common sense.

When I go to Africa – that is, if I’m taking a .375 caliber – I take my 375 AI (Weatherby), which IMO is a significant increase in power of the standard H&H – that is, ~10% increase in case capacity and 100 to 200 fps increases in velocity, depending upon bullet type and size.

And, if I get separated from my ammo, which can certainly happen, given that many carriers insist on packing the ammo separately from the gun, I can shoot the outfitter’s in-camp 375 H&H ammo, which has always been available on 6 safaris.

This way I get to use my gun, which I trust more than the outfitters camp guns.

I get the best of both worlds - more power with my ammo and outfitter support should something go wrong with the baggage.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
They are both superb hunting rounds and if you prefer slightly longer, heavier, more expensive rifles with "nostalgia" then get the H&H and if you are pragmatic and just want a serious hunting tool then get the Ruger.

Surely you are not suggesting that all those 375 H&H caliber Winchester 70s, Ruger 77s, Remington 700s, and countless custom and semi-custom rifles, including those made by H&H themselves, were/are not serious hunting tools.

Would you consider SAKO's 375 H&H offerings in a 21" barreled model 85 Brown Bear with laminated stock, 21" barreled stainless steel model 85 Kodiak with laminated stock, or 24" barreled model 85 Stainless Synthetic as longer, heavier rifles with "nostalgia" and not as serious hunting tools? I will point out that the first two of those in 375 H&H are 41.9" in OAL making them a full 3" shorter than Ruger's Hawkeye African in 375 Ruger.

People have been making short barreled consumer grade rifles and carbines chambered in 375 H&H for scores of years. They have also been available in stainless and synthetic for over a dozen years.

Since the 375 H&H holds a bit less powder than the 375 Ruger it is just as suitable, or perhaps even more suitable, for short barreled rifles than the Ruger round. When it comes to shorter and handier rifles the comparison picture I posted above was created to scale and you can see that the Ruger "short" rifle is actually a fraction of an inch longer than a Winchester Model 70 with a 24" barrel and a longer length of pull. So, with that thought in mind, perhaps Ruger should be selling 375 Ruger rifles with 26" barrels as an improvement on 24" barreled 375 H&H rifles.

All this is just proof of how marketing can bend minds away from common sense.

Anything for us left handed shooters ?

Do I think 375 ruger has a marketing angle - yes.

Do a lot of people own 375 ruger - yes.

For me to get a functioning and working 375 h&h in left handed is $4k. I need to send a CZ to wayne.

A 375 ruger is $599 from cdnn.

I will get a other custom 375 h&h from wayne - got to build a 300 win mag, finish a 30/06, sako 9.3x62 before that. Till then the ruger will back up the 375h&h. I will also end up with 1000 rounds of loaded 375 ruger ammo in Barnes tsx, swift a frames and northfolk. That plus the 375 h&h and Lott I have stocked will last me thus lifetime of hunting.

The ruger 375 package - the rifle and ammo and price point is a winner.

I can also bet a alaskan will impress your african ph more than a run of the mill Dakota that cost 10 times as much.

Mike

Good point, Mike. Ruger does take care of lefties while many rifle makers do not. It must be frustrating to be sinister shooter in a universe of dexter rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Good point, Mike. Ruger does take care of lefties while many rifle makers do not. It must be frustrating to be sinister shooter in a universe of dexter rifles.

Yes and no

Overall I am glad I shoot left handed. I am a very right handed person but left eye dominant. So I shoot left handed with a rifle and shotgun.

If I was right handed I would own way too many rifles - way too many. Tough to impulse buy something you don't see.

Also I am a little worried about the 400 and over rifle market. I am seeing some very good rifles in the classified section not moving. Seen Butch/Begno 2 458 lott offering - excellent guns and value.

I dont think I will end up with a shelf full of high end doubles. I will get a bunch of AHR customs over time cause I just like Waynes work and the cost is not prohibitive that I can actually hunt with the rifles.

The rugers make great truck guns and at $599-$699 how much can I lose. I should have bought every left handed winchester 70 when gander mountain had them on clearance. Feel the same way with these rugers. I dont like the muzzle brake version.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E: ...

For me to get a functioning and working 375 h&h in left handed is $4k. I need to send a CZ to wayne. ...

Wow. I guess I was really lucky. I bought a NIB unfired LH CZ550 375 H&H (already glass-bedded) for $1,200.00. I plan to send it off to Wayne for his $700.00 upgrade. I'll have $1,900.00 into it.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Also I am a little worried about the 400 and over rifle market. I am seeing some very good rifles in the classified section not moving.


Mike

I have noticed the same -- but in this state the Ruger big bores seem to still be selling.

I will stick with the prediction I made when the Ruger round came out. The 375 Ruger will eventually supplant the 375 H&H for the same reasons the 300 WM supplanted the 300 H&H.
Price & availability. Plus the fact that it is a more modern design with slightly better performance doesn't hurt either.

Price and availability.

Yes, Savage, Mossberg, Ruger, and Howa are going to introduce quite a few into cartridges that are legal for DG around the world. One of these years I would expect Winchester to do the same. Most won't go on a safari or brown bear hunt but they will enjoy shooting the cartridge, and maybe taking a heavy timber elk or moose.

Phil, I agree with your prediction but there is oneconsideration that may reduce its validity in the lower-48. The 300WM and 300H&H were cartridges that could justify widespread use in North america, from prairies to big game. a lot of people wanted one of the flat-shooting magnums for bean-field deer, and cross-canyon deer.
The 375 calibre is a little more restricted in overall use and appeal. Not that many hunters will see it as needed or advantageous for deer. With relatively more modest sales of the .375 calibres, I would not expect a massive replacement of Ruger over H&H. Many who choose the 375 diameter for African nostalgia may continue to save up and get an H&H. The 300H&H did not have that advantage. So the WinMag pushed the 300H&H aside.

Meanwhile, the 375Ruger has one more advantage over the 375H&H in a Win70 length action: longer, high-BC bullets can be put in a Mod70 magazine, where the H&H case will already have used up the space. (As for the less-expensive rifles, they tend to be limited to 3.38-3.40" COL. They support the Ruger choice because the H&H doesn't fit at all. Price and availability, as originally stated.)

I certainly don't think any of the Ruger rounds will completely replace the H&H. The 375 is too well established, both in the field and in literature. Like the 9.3x62, 404 Jeffery and 416 Rigby, it will remain well represented both in the field and on internet discussions and arguments.
In fact this week I am getting ready for our moose season to start and am trying to decide if I want to carry my M-70 375 H&H in an Echol's stock or my 375 Ruger built by Charlie Sisk on a FN action and wearing a Borden RR stock.

If there was a significant difference between cartridges I wouldn't have to make a decision. But for someone starting out and wanting to buy a new one then the price difference becomes obvious. I know that at least two of my guides will be carrying 375 Ruger's.

There is no difference in the field, ask any elephant. Beware of the paper tigers who haunt the halls of AR with ballistic sheets and stubby wooden pencils!

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Then using that logic the the only reason the H&H exists was it was meant to sell rifles for H&H.

I think you're forgetting that the .375 H&H was made open to the trade and wasn't a proprietary cartridge that H&H kept to themselves, nor was there a previous cartridge that filled that niche at that performance level.

quote:

And Ruger sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past century.

Besides being irrelevant, that's like saying that Ford sells more Mustangs in one month than Ferrari sold f360s during all years of production. Is that really a surprise?

The .375 Ruger is merely a copycat regardless of sales volume, and precisely what drongo stated... a (proprietary and completely unnecessary) cartridge (with a negligible increase in performance) created simply to sell more (low-cost) rifles. Then Ruger got Pappy Boddington to write something nice about it and people were SOLD on how great this "new" cartridge was!

.375 Ruger meet .375 H&H... you know, the cartridge that does exactly what you do, but for 95 years before you showed up.

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Then using that logic the the only reason the H&H exists was it was meant to sell rifles for H&H.

I think you're forgetting that the .375 H&H was made open to the trade and wasn't a proprietary cartridge that H&H kept to themselves, nor was there a previous cartridge that filled that niche at that performance level.

quote:

And Ruger sold more 375 Rugers in the first year than H&H has in the past century.

Besides being irrelevant, that's like saying that Ford sells more Mustangs in one month than Ferrari sold f360s during all years of production. Is that really a surprise?

The .375 Ruger is merely a copycat regardless of sales volume, and precisely what drongo stated... a (proprietary and completely unnecessary) cartridge (with a negligible increase in performance) created simply to sell more (low-cost) rifles. Then Ruger got Pappy Boddington to write something nice about it and people were SOLD on how great this "new" cartridge was!

.375 Ruger meet .375 H&H... you know, the cartridge that does exactly what you do, but for 95 years before you showed up.

375 Ruger is not proprietary. You have other manufactures making it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmNgZxpIBgQ

I think Ruger has sold a critical mass of guns.

Ammo is available from custom reloading shops. I bought barnes tsx at same price loaded in 375 ruger that I did in 375 H&H.

At $599/$699 a gun. I have bought 3 ruger 375 - will buy another alaskan soon and I can buy 1000 rounds of tsx ammo to last me a life time. All for under $10K.

I am also betting in 10-20 years I will be able to sell my 375 Ruger for more money as Ruger following your example of trying to differentiate and generate new sales will create some new bell and whistle like a muzzle brake or paddle stocks.

Also I think 375 Ruger has caught on in Alaska and I am much more confident in 50-100 years of hunting in Alaska than I am about hunting in Africa.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
375 Ruger is not proprietary. You have other manufactures making it.

You're right, I left out Mossberg and Savage.

But as far as ubiquitous availability and acceptance, it still might as well be considered proprietary. They all chamber the .375 H&H, even Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
375 Ruger is not proprietary. You have other manufactures making it.

You're right, I left out Mossberg and Savage.

But as far as ubiquitous availability and acceptance, it still might as well be considered proprietary. They all chamber the .375 H&H, even Weatherby.

Howa was left out. I hear that they have been popular in South Africa.

I wonder if internet forums would have bad-mouthed the 300 WinMag fifty years ago?

What disturbs me about this thread is the prediction that African hunting may not be around in 50-100 years. I think that the folks with 375 H&H's, 375 Rugers, 416Rugers, and 416Remingtons need to work together towards sustainable hunting in what will be a challenging, promising, and turbulent contintent.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I wonder if internet forums would have bad-mouthed the 300 WinMag fifty years ago?

They did. The .308 Norma was the better cartridge of the pair, there was nothing wrong (and still isn't) with the .300 H&H, and the .300 Weatherby beats them all.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
375 Ruger is not proprietary. You have other manufactures making it.

You're right, I left out Mossberg and Savage.

But as far as ubiquitous availability and acceptance, it still might as well be considered proprietary. They all chamber the .375 H&H, even Weatherby.

Howa was left out. I hear that they have been popular in South Africa.

I wonder if internet forums would have bad-mouthed the 300 WinMag fifty years ago?

What disturbs me about this thread is the prediction that African hunting may not be around in 50-100 years. I think that the folks with 375 H&H's, 375 Rugers, 416Rugers, and 416Remingtons need to work together towards sustainable hunting in what will be a challenging, promising, and turbulent contintent.

Its the 458 lotts and above - actually anything 400 that will be suspect.

If elephant hunting goes the way it is. Is there are real need for 400 and above.

I think way too many 400 and above guns have been built anyway.

Other than elephants and a back up to buff - the biggest users of 458 lott are actually to kill whales. Why you see demand for 458 lotts in some whalling countries.

Elephants are long lived and large acreage animals - I dont think most AR members in their lifetime will see the decimation that has taken place in Tanzania reversed.

375 rugers fits a nice intermediate range - can be use in north america and I know more than a few ar members who have used 375 ruger as a deer rifle.

I also think this mossberg and savage offering along with discounted clearance rugers will significantly increase 375 use.

If someone can get a $300-$500 375 ruger they will buy it just to have a big bore. Gander always carried a cz 375 H&H in stock - they stopped cause at $1000 it was no longer a impulse buy.

The real users of big bores are less than 3000-5000 (african and alaskan dg hunts a year not african plains game) and in reality they are probably 50,000 plus guns floating around.

The new rugers - mossberg savage are gimmick impulse buy guns. But if Hornady has ammo at sub $3 a around - guys will buy a $400 gun just to say its the biggest gun on the range/buddies. Kind of like big bore handguns.

Need a $500 375H&H - zero chance of that.

Mike

Phil, I agree completely as to not replacing and your reasoning. I have never considered it more powerful than the H&H; just more handier in most rifles. I really like the 375H&H and have a few in M70 and InterArms Whitworth type.
But, I certainly use the Ruger chambered rifles more, and have a few of them too.
The 375 Ruger is right there will the 375H&H and 338 Win Mag as my top 3 or 4 favorites.
Heading out this morning to set up camp in search of moose.
Had the major dilemma of decided which rifle/cartridge my last time off(at home). Leaving the 375Ruger at home.
But, am using an as factory issued Ruger Alaskan, with exceptions of Alaska Arms rings & 1.5-6x42 Kahles, in 416 Ruger with 350gr TSX. The 416Ruger has crowded in as another favorite. It has sedated my desire for a stainless 416Rem, which is a fine cartridge. But again, for my use the 416 Ruger is handier than the M70 416 Rem that I presently have.
The 375Ruger will not be left out, as my son shall be carrying his with 270gr TSX.
-----------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I certainly don't think any of the Ruger rounds will completely replace the H&H. The 375 is too well established, both in the field and in literature. Like the 9.3x62, 404 Jeffery and 416 Rigby, it will remain well represented both in the field and on internet discussions and arguments.
In fact this week I am getting ready for our moose season to start and am trying to decide if I want to carry my M-70 375 H&H in an Echol's stock or my 375 Ruger built by Charlie Sisk on a FN action and wearing a Borden RR stock.

If there was a significant difference between cartridges I wouldn't have to make a decision. But for someone starting out and wanting to buy a new one then the price difference becomes obvious. I know that at least two of my guides will be carrying 375 Ruger's.

The lack of rifles and cartridge cases is the sole reason why the 375 Ruger will not gain a following here in SA. And the same applies for some other cartridges. Factory rifles rule the roost for the masses - if a specific a cartridge is not offered in a factory rifle it will always suffer a back-seat to standard factory rifles that are commonly and widely available.

Example - the new Norma and Blaser maganum cartridges, just like the various "short magnums" are dead in the water in SA. Even better case design in .300 caliber (like the .300 WSM) have no chance to unseat the .300 Win Mag with its belt and short neck.

Whinchester killed the 300 H&H by stopping production on it to allow the .300 Win Mag to replace it. So, Winchester will have to do the same to stop making .300 Win Mag's to allow the .300 WSM's to gain the lead over the next few decades, if ever, due to the head-start benefit that the .300 Win Mag already enjoys.

Pieter

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:
.375 Ruger meet .375 H&H... you know, the cartridge that does exactly what you do, but for 95 years before you showed up.

No

The 375Ruger can't do everything the 375H&H does!

It can't require a 3.600" action (are shorter actions slightly stronger, I forget)

It can't get LESS bullets in the mag due to a belt

It can't have as much case stretch and brass flow like the 375H&H is due to the low angle shoulder

It can't be as good a candidate for thinning at the pressure ring and case head separations

It can't be excluded as a candidate for rebarelling a 3.400" action (take a guess at how many more 3.4" actions there are compared to 3.6")

It can't be excluded as a candidate for barreling a new 3.400" action (go shopping for each and let us know pricing and availability)


I probably missed a few, but those are the ones that readily come to mind

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

The 375Ruger can't do everything the 375H&H does!

It can't require a 3.600" action (are shorter actions slightly stronger, I forget)
It takes very little work to turn a M-70 action chambered for a 7mm Mag into one that can handle a .375 H&H

It can't get LESS bullets in the mag due to a belt
The Ruger cartridge diameter is narely the same as the belt diameter of the .375 H&H

It can't have as much case stretch and brass flow like the 375H&H is due to the low angle shoulder
Any prudent handloader can fix this if it's important to him. And if the shooter shoots only factory ammo it's complete irrelevant

It can't be as good a candidate for thinning at the pressure ring and case head separations

see my above comment.....the same applies here

It can't be excluded as a candidate for rebarelling a 3.400" action (take a guess at how many more 3.4" actions there are compared to 3.6")

see my comments to the first comments.....M-70 actions are easily converted as I've done and If I can do it almost anyone can

It can't be excluded as a candidate for barreling a new 3.400" action (go shopping for each and let us know pricing and availability)

see above red comments.....


I probably missed a few, but those are the ones that readily come to mind

In short.......any of the Mausers or even M-70 actions chambered for the .300 length magnums can be re barreled for the .375 Ruger or the .375 H&H.....granted it's somewhat easier to do so with the .375 Ruger but it's also fairly doable with the .375 H&H....it's just a little more work and I've done it.....and that means almost anyone can do it.

I have nothing at all against the Ruger offering.....it's a fine round and I far prefer the lack of a belted case but the negatives of the H&H offering are miniscule. If one can afford the hunt that requires this kind of muscle, he can afford the gun to shoot it. It's not at all a heavy premium to pay. IMO it's probably worth it!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Typical of Win Mags, it had a shoulder gap of .041" on new cases (guess you guys are going to call this belted case characteristic an advantage huh?) so I rebarreled it to something with only .002" headspace.

Actually, you are comparing apples and oranges. That shoulder gap has nothing to do with headspacing a belted magnum case because they headspace on the belt. It is easy to over size a standard case and push the shoulder back so far it creates excessive headspace. I wonder how hard you would have to pull the lever on your loader to push the belt of a 375 H&H magnum case back that far.


"A belted magnum (left) go gauge compared to a
rimless bottle neck cartridge go gauge (right).
The belt magnum is headspaced with the rim,
while the rimless cartridge is headspaced off
a datum point on the shoulder." - rifleshooter.com