quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Typical of Win Mags, it had a shoulder gap of .041" on new cases (guess you guys are going to call this belted case characteristic an advantage huh?) so I rebarreled it to something with only .002" headspace.

Actually, you are comparing apples and oranges. That shoulder gap has nothing to do with headspacing a belted magnum case because they headspace on the belt. It is easy to over size a standard case and push the shoulder back so far it creates excessive headspace. I wonder how hard you would have to pull the lever on your loader to push the belt of a 375 H&H magnum case back that far.


"A belted magnum (left) go gauge compared to a
rimless bottle neck cartridge go gauge (right).
The belt magnum is headspaced with the rim,
while the rimless cartridge is headspaced off
a datum point on the shoulder." - rifleshooter.com

Did I call it headspace??? NO I called it a shoulder gap





I actually DO measure the headspace on my belted mags (without those useless go/nogo gauges you pictured) and even though a belted mag may have headspace between .002" to .008", it will STILL have a shoulder gap typically between .020" to .040"

THAT is what causes the thinning at the pressure ring and more probable subsequent case head separations with the belted magnums

quote:

Did I call it headspace??? NO I called it a shoulder gap

Well, Woods, you were speaking of both. It was you who said that "to correct a shoulder gap of .041" on new cases" you "rebarreled it to something with only .002" headspace". To me that is like driving a hammer by beating it with a nail.

My point was that a little shoulder gap with the belted cases doesn't matter, except as you mention with regard to case stretch/flow. Also, it is very hard to size belted cases enough to get excessive headspace using standard loading tools. On the other hand, a little shoulder gap with a standard case could very well mean excessive headspace. And, it is not difficult to over size standard cases, setting the shoulder back too far, and create a headspacing problem.

If you don't like any shoulder gap with a belted case the solution is clear. Either neck size fired cases or fire form cases before loading them.

I only load a case a few times before I throw it out. Brass isn't that expensive. I definitely don't choose rifle calibers based on how many times I can reload a case. If a 375 Ruger case can be reloaded a dozen times more than a 375 H&H case that means absolutely nothing to me. If I was that hard up for brass I'd be dumpster diving at the local range.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier: ... I only load a case a few times before I throw it out. Brass isn't that expensive. I definitely don't choose rifle calibers based on how many times I can reload a case. If a 375 Ruger case can be reloaded a dozen times more than a 375 H&H case that means absolutely nothing to me. If I was that hard up for brass I'd be dumpster diving at the local range.

.76 cents a round for Privi 375 H&H brass (http://www.shootersupplyusa.com/prvi-brass-375-handh-mag-unprimed-100-bag.html) vs
.93 cents a round for Hornady 375 Ruger brass (http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/Item/000038674?Tk=DFBR)

Macht nichts for me.

Okay, I compared the two cartridges in my Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition. They listed barrel and pressure information so it gives us a little better basis for the comparison. Pressures were collected using pressure barrels. The barrel length used was 24" for both cartridges.

SAAMI limit for both cartridges is 62,000psi but look at the pressures. What's up with that?

235gr Jacketed SP

RX15
375 H&H - 2810fps @51,900psi
375 Rug - 2952fps @59,600psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2848fps @52,000psi
375 Rug - 2906fps @55,900psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 2.5% increase in velocity by running at 115% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using H380 powder) 2886fps @50,600psi
375 Rug - (using H414 powder) 2954fps @58,000psi

270gr Jacketed A-Frame

RX15
375 H&H - 2591fps @52,300psi
375 Rug - 2713fps @59,600psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2647fps @52,300psi
375 Rug - 2701fps @57,900psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 3% increase in velocity by running at 118% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using N160 powder) 2664fps @50,000psi
375 Rug - ( using 760 powder ) 2738fps @59,000psi

300gr Banded Solid

RX15
375 H&H - 2504fps @52,400psi
375 Rug - 2607fps @59,700psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2510fps @51,700psi
375 Rug - 2614fps @58,600psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 4% increase in velocity by running at nearly 117% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using AA-2700 powder ) 2561fps @50,600psi
375 Rug - (using IMR-4350 powder) 2623fps @59,000psi

And if they had been loaded to comparable pressures?

.

Thank you. Extra data is always appreciated.

quote:

And if they had been loaded to comparable pressures?

Let's not hold our breath hoping for water to run uphill.

The Ruger has 5-6% more capacity, so when barrels are equally smooth and tight, one can expect approximately 35-50 fps more velocity with the Ruger, or 1.25%-1.5% more velocity.

On the other hand, 50fps is so small that a barrel made on a Tuesday may be different from a barrel made on Wednesday so that either cartridge may test faster when particular barrels/rifles are compared.

The bottom line is that we can all see that the Ruger has a small capacity advantage. Individual tests can never erase that. For hunting one simply choses the cartridge that fits or comes with the chosen rifle. With a traditional long action either cartridge is great, though the Ruger will allow longer bullets. With a short standard action in a less expensive rifle the Ruger is available.

I have decided to carry my FN 375 Ruger for this moose season this afternoon started looking at the case and comparing it to the 370 Sako ( aka 9.3x66) and the 9.3x64. It looks like the Ruger could also be called the 9.5x66. That sounds sexy enough that I am sure if some European company with a long history introduces it today and touted it as beltless, giving more velocity than the H&H round, but fitting in a standard length action, that it would be greeted as a fantastic new round.

I think, Phil, that was what Sako was trying to do when they introduced their 370 Sako. It isn't a .375 caliber round but close enough and it provides a good explanation for why they called it 370 instead of 366 or just 37.

Going by the data at the Hodgdon pages, Hodgdon lists only one H&H load from a 24-inch barrel with the 300-grain Sierra that exceeds 2,600 -- 81.5 grains of H4350 giving 2,645 at 49,500 CUP.
Hodgdon lists 10 loads at more than 2,600 for the .375 Ruger from a 24-inch barrel, with 80.7 grains of H4350 giving 2,660 with the Hornady 300-grain RN, but at 59,600 CUP.
With modern rifles and brass, does an extra 10,000 CUP to achieve the same result make any difference?

No. The H&H can be loaded up to the same pressures as the Ruger. BOTH are 62,000 psi SAAMI cartridges.

On the other hand, if you were getting ready to take a shot in 105° F weather with a rifle and ammo that had been exposed to the sun, would you rather be shooting a cartridge loaded to 60,000 psi at 70° F or one loaded to 50,000 psi at 70° F?

Gren, I'd take the lower pressure load every time.

Me too.

Take a look at this quote from Quickload:

quote:

Earlier this summer we tested some ammo loaded with Norma 203B. It was allowed to sit in direct sunlight for 15 minutes. We then ran the sun-baked ammo over the chron and found that velocities were as much as 45 fps higher than the same ammo at 70° F. Using QuickLOAD to extrapolate backwards from observed velocities, it was clear that sitting in the sun had raised pressures by nearly 4000 psi.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Me too.

Take a look at this quote from Quickload:

quote:

Earlier this summer we tested some ammo loaded with Norma 203B. It was allowed to sit in direct sunlight for 15 minutes. We then ran the sun-baked ammo over the chron and found that velocities were as much as 45 fps higher than the same ammo at 70° F. Using QuickLOAD to extrapolate backwards from observed velocities, it was clear that sitting in the sun had raised pressures by nearly 4000 psi.

That happened to me this weekend... Loads were fine when I tested them in Jan, Shot some this weekend in 100deg and got major pressure sign and sticky extraction in my Ruger.. have to back her off a bit..

My son's 375 Ruger with 270gr TSX worked as to moose this year. As did my 416 Ruger with 350gr TSX. Of course, a 375 H&H would have worked just as well also. Both frontal chest shots, his more angling, mine more straight on, both about 70yds, both immediately down and out. Really admire the 375 H&H's but, really like and use the Ruger cartridges.
------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have decided to carry my FN 375 Ruger for this moose season this afternoon started looking at the case and comparing it to the 370 Sako ( aka 9.3x66) and the 9.3x64. It looks like the Ruger could also be called the 9.5x66. That sounds sexy enough that I am sure if some European company with a long history introduces it today and touted it as beltless, giving more velocity than the H&H round, but fitting in a standard length action, that it would be greeted as a fantastic new round.

Phil,

they said that when Hornady/Ruger introduced it here.

Sadly for the marketing dept, it proved to not be not so fantastic.

We will hope that your faith is not misplaced in an alder thicket with a Brownie that has not read the hype.

Of course, someone here posted that the 30-06 is all one really needs if they are a decent marksman.

Rich, I know you have a great love for the nostalgia of the H&H round but here in Alaska the 375 Ruger has proven to be a success and is rapidly supplanting both the 338 Win and the 375 H&H.
Give one an honest try and get back with me.

Something that I believe is vastly over stated is the so called "ammo sitting in the sun" scenario. There is a 30 degree difference between ammo left in direct sunlight "to bake" and regular temperatures that will be experienced in the course of even the hottest hunt in the back end of nowhere.

something to test is to leave your gun sitting in the sun for an hour and feel how cool the rounds are inside the gun even after a good baking. Again the gun can be too hot to touch and the ammo inside is still only warm.
When you walk with the rifle, the air movement cools it as you walk.

I think this is a non issue as the difference in point of impact with 45fps at hunting ranges is minimal.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Rich, I know you have a great love for the nostalgia of the H&H round but here in Alaska the 375 Ruger has proven to be a success and is rapidly supplanting both the 338 Win and the 375 H&H.
Give one an honest try and get back with me.

They have caught on in Australia. Cheap rifles and a Made in America option with Ruger.

However, as far as I am aware they are a zero deal in the custom gun area.

IDmay375

Congrats on getting your winter meat supply in! Did you recover your 416, 350gr TSX and what kind of penetration did you get.

I am in the process of relocating to Fairbanks from Colorado. I just pick up a 416 Ruger Guide gun to go along with my 375 Ruger Alaskan and would like to use it next year for moose with the 350gr TSX.

Regards
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:
Something that I believe is vastly over stated is the so called "ammo sitting in the sun" scenario. There is a 30 degree difference between ammo left in direct sunlight "to bake" and regular temperatures that will be experienced in the course of even the hottest hunt in the back end of nowhere.

something to test is to leave your gun sitting in the sun for an hour and feel how cool the rounds are inside the gun even after a good baking. Again the gun can be too hot to touch and the ammo inside is still only warm.
When you walk with the rifle, the air movement cools it as you walk.

I think this is a non issue as the difference in point of impact with 45fps at hunting ranges is minimal.

doing most of my hunting in Texas in 90-100* heat--I totally concur---its a tempest in a teapot these days. I don't know about cordite--it might have been different-but who uses it today?

Used to own 2 LH 375 H&H one a Factory Win 70 LH and one a Custom Rem 700 both with 24" Barrels. Had several case failures and did not like the balance on Win 70. Shot them both quite a bit and cases always needed trimming, case failure probably due to diff. chamber sizes and not keeping cases always segregated, but a case failure with a stuck case in the field can be a issue.

When Ruger introduced the 375 Ruger in LH and SS I sold both and bought the Ruger SS LH 20" Laminate 375 Ruger much prefer the cartridge and rifle. 270 GR Barnes TSX at 2725 FPS well under 1".

That being said I have Custom Win 70 LH LW in 9.3 X 62 and thats what I took Moose hunting this year. 7.5# holds 5 down with Ram Shot BG and 286 NP 2500 FPS. Accurate & easy to carry!

We like our Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby, shoots 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby both very accurately. Only heard good things about the Ruger. Pretty hard to find a LH rifle never mind a stainless/synthetic one that's CRF. I have to say the Remington QA was crap and the gun needed TLC right out of the box by my gunsmith Kevin Weaver. What a long way down they've come. Haven't tried a new M70, hear they are nice.

quote:

Originally posted by kk alaska:
Used to own 2 LH 375 H&H one a Factory Win 70 LH and one a Custom Rem 700 both with 24" Barrels. Had several case failures and did not like the balance on Win 70. Shot them both quite a bit and cases always needed trimming, case failure probably due to diff. chamber sizes and not keeping cases always segregated, but a case failure with a stuck case in the field can be a issue.

When Ruger introduced the 375 Ruger in LH and SS I sold both and bought the Ruger SS LH 20" Laminate 375 Ruger much prefer the cartridge and rifle. 270 GR Barnes TSX at 2725 FPS well under 1".

That being said I have Custom Win 70 LH LW in 9.3 X 62 and thats what I took Moose hunting this year. 7.5# holds 5 down with Ram Shot BG and 286 NP 2500 FPS. Accurate & easy to carry!

KK,

are you using JB load data for the 9.3x62?

all the best.

Phil

375 Ruger Max load of Ram Shot Big Game, 270 TSX, shot at -10 F 3 shots at .49" It shot well when it warmed up also. Very easy cartridge to load for, most loads were under 1.5". PM for specific load.

9.3 x 62 Yes I use JB,s load for my 9.3 Ram Shot Big Game with 286 Nosler Part. Very accurate and no pressure signs at all at 2525 FPS 22" barrel.

quote:

doing most of my hunting in Texas in 90-100* heat--I totally concur---its a tempest in a teapot these days. I don't know about cordite--it might have been different-but who uses it today?

Sean
You summed it up perfectly.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Phil,

they said that when Hornady/Ruger introduced it here.

Sadly for the marketing dept, it proved to not be not so fantastic.

We will hope that your faith is not misplaced in an alder thicket with a Brownie that has not read the hype.

Dude.. what does that even mean? Is your assertion gone from "ammo impossible to find in Africa" to "ammo is so ephemeral that it may become impossible to find the magazine of the rifle you loaded 2 hours ago?"

It might disappear in the gun?

Or that the tech used to load the ruger is somehow different and might fail?

Or just a lefthanded curse by affliction of the heebeegeebees as if somehow merely the name ruger causes danger in the alders?

Your math teacher would mark the paper down. You can't mix terms. For example a 3% gain compared to a 118% increase. 103% and 118 percent are proper as is 3% and 18%, that's how it is stated in math. 3 vs 118 is propaganda

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Okay, I compared the two cartridges in my Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition. They listed barrel and pressure information so it gives us a little better basis for the comparison. Pressures were collected using pressure barrels. The barrel length used was 24" for both cartridges.

SAAMI limit for both cartridges is 62,000psi but look at the pressures. What's up with that?

235gr Jacketed SP

RX15
375 H&H - 2810fps @51,900psi
375 Rug - 2952fps @59,600psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2848fps @52,000psi
375 Rug - 2906fps @55,900psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 2.5% increase in velocity by running at 115% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using H380 powder) 2886fps @50,600psi
375 Rug - (using H414 powder) 2954fps @58,000psi

270gr Jacketed A-Frame

RX15
375 H&H - 2591fps @52,300psi
375 Rug - 2713fps @59,600psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2647fps @52,300psi
375 Rug - 2701fps @57,900psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 3% increase in velocity by running at 118% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using N160 powder) 2664fps @50,000psi
375 Rug - ( using 760 powder ) 2738fps @59,000psi

300gr Banded Solid

RX15
375 H&H - 2504fps @52,400psi
375 Rug - 2607fps @59,700psi

Big Game
375 H&H - 2510fps @51,700psi
375 Rug - 2614fps @58,600psi

Fastest load listed for each cartridge
The Ruger gets a 4% increase in velocity by running at nearly 117% the pressure of the H&H round.
375 H&H - (using AA-2700 powder ) 2561fps @50,600psi
375 Rug - (using IMR-4350 powder) 2623fps @59,000psi

And if they had been loaded to comparable pressures?

I can mix terms all I want to. The result is the same and it means the same. And, it is perfectly acceptable to use terms that people are familiar with or that follow convention. Shooters and reloaders usually speak of loads as having x% more or less powder. Pressure is spoken about in either way - x% more or less or x% of a comparative value.

I want to thank you for trying to grade my paper but you're not my mommy. Nevertheless, I give you an "A" for anal retentiveness.

No worries. You can mix terms all you like.. I am AR when it comes to facts and figures about reloading . I am guilty as charged, pun intended

For those of you who have not had the pleasure of reading Pierre van der Walt's book African Dangerous Game Cartridges I will quote his comments on the 375 Ruger
" I really like this cartridge. Technically I think it far superior to the 375 H&H cartridge. It is rimless, of standard length and based on proven performance levels. I would easily swap my belted 375 for it"

In his extensive reloading section he shows that both the Ruger and H&H rounds have the same CIP pressure limits ( 62,367 psi) and that with a 2.6% greater capacity the Ruger gives an average of a bit more than 1% greater velocity.

That is not significant but it is greater and I know of a number of highly experienced African PH's and biologists who now use it.

There are a couple of definite differences between the Ruger and H&H, that is, they are not opinion. However, a couple of these differences might not occur in practice:

1) The H&H being belted allows a much sloppier chamber to be cut. Thus with muck or dirt on the ammo or in the chamber the H&H will always be easier to chamber.

2) The long tapering H&H and narrow shoulder, about the same diameter as 7 x 57 or 30/06 will mean the 375 H&H will always be less fussy for feeding. This would be most likely to occur if flat nose bullets were used or very blunt round bullets with large lead exposure.

3) The actions primary extraction always needs to be greater with the Ruger. Thus an action with worn extraction cam would be better in the H&H

Of course the above points might manifest themselves in practice.

4) If very reduced loads are used and especially squib loads the Ruger case will result in increased headspace with each shot.

5) Assuming equally suitable powders and barrel lengths the Ruger will always be able to get more velocity than the H&H or alternatively give the same velocities as the H&H but with lower pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
There are a couple of definite differences between the Ruger and H&H, that is, they are not opinion. However, a couple of these differences might not occur in practice:

.

2) The long tapering H&H and narrow shoulder, about the same diameter as 7 x 57 or 30/06 will mean the 375 H&H will always be less fussy for feeding. This would be most likely to occur if flat nose bullets were used or very blunt round bullets with large lead exposure.

I have always wondered why folks consider this a "fact" as once the front of the bullet has entered the chamber the rest will follow and it does't matter what shape the rest of the case is.

On the other hand the primary reason for sharply tapered cases has more to do with extraction with overloads or dirty cases than it does with feeding.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

I have always wondered why folks consider this a "fact" as once the front of the bullet has entered the chamber the rest will follow and it does't matter what shape the rest of the case is.

On the other hand the primary reason for sharply tapered cases has more to do with extraction with overloads or dirty cases than it does with feeding.

Yes, that is true.

However, the long tapered case increases the chances of the bullet entering the chamber as opposed to the bullet hitting just to one side of the chamber.

As to extraction the main plus of the very tapered case is the primary extraction, that is, how far the bolt moves back while the bolt handle is lifted. Primary extraction can be reduced by worn extraction cam, thinner than usual case rim or distance between case rim and extractor is too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
However, the long tapered case increases the chances of the bullet entering the chamber as opposed to the bullet hitting just to one side of the chamber.

As to extraction the main plus of the very tapered case is the primary extraction, that is, how far the bolt moves back while the bolt handle is lifted. Primary extraction can be reduced by worn extraction cam, thinner than usual case rim or distance between case rim and extractor is too much.

that's why all machine gun ammo is long, sloping, high taper rounds, into CRF actions,

.. no wait....

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

that's why all machine gun ammo is long, sloping, high taper rounds, into CRF actions,

.. no wait....

Well CRF would not be good as bolt closes too fast.

Are machine guns in calibres like 308 a straight line feed??

Depends. Some are mag fed some are belt fed. Some are mag and not stag fed. Some are even single stack

45 acp and 9mm. Just for example

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Depends. Some are mag fed some are belt fed. Some are mag and not stag fed. Some are even single stack

45 acp and 9mm. Just for example

Any stagger feeds.

Are there any stagger feed 22 rimfires

Mike,
what's the point? You can look this up as well as anyone else can... a "stagger feed 22 rimfire" distraction of a question is an attempt to deflect from the point...

the HH feeds well ... so can a 45 acp, or 458 lott, or any other PROPERLY setup rifle... has nothing to do with the question at hand, in the thread

the ruger works, the HH works, the ruger is a larger case than the HH, with all that entails.
full stop ..

I have an early 80s Sako 375 H&H, and a Ruger African in 375 Ruger. The Ruger is one of the earlier models. I like them both. Neither has a problem with feeding. Both are accurate. The Ruger is a little bit handier to carry around. The Sako has a better trigger. The Ruger safety is more secure. etc etc. With handloads, I only try to achieve H&H ballistics out of the Ruger. Makes for mild pressure loads. What's not to like?

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
I have an early 80s Sako 375 H&H, and a Ruger African in 375 Ruger. The Ruger is one of the earlier models. I like them both. Neither has a problem with feeding. Both are accurate. The Ruger is a little bit handier to carry around. The Sako has a better trigger. The Ruger safety is more secure. etc etc. With handloads, I only try to achieve H&H ballistics out of the Ruger. Makes for mild pressure loads. What's not to like?

The trigger can be easily fixed on the Ruger. Hone the shear angle and cut the trigger spring. Coworker and I have done that. Our Triggers are a crisp 1.5# trigger pull with no creep on our Guide Guns. They both past the bolt slam and bump test.

I did have a talented local gunsmith work on the Ruger trigger. It is much better than before, but still not quite as good as the Sako. It is about 2 pounds, but has a little bit of creep. I plan to ask the gunsmith to make it slightly heavier, but crisper. Regardless, it is very useable, and I don't think the trigger gets in the way of accurate shooting. Anyway, I like both guns, and don't think that really one cartridge has an advantage over the other, except for availability of ammunition in some locations.