who is building a .500 based on the 416 Rigby for use in a boltaction rifle?

thanks,

Rich

Why does a person want a rimmed/flanged cartridge in a bolt action rifle, unless it's just to have something non-typical?

Have you looked at the .500 A-Square? Based off the .460 Weatherby case.

Big Jack Five,

we may have to get you a copy of cartridges of the world! The 416 Rigby is a rimless cartridge case, that Weatherby added a belt to and produces in 378, 416, and 460 Wby calibres. This 500-416 has nothing to do with the Rigby except attempting to trade off of the name/fame by adding a belt, stretching to 3.25 (I believe), and duplicating ballistics at a lower pressure suitable for double rifles. I am looking for a 416 Rigby case unaltered except necking it up to .500 for use in a boltrifle. I already have made dummies from cylindrical Bell 416 brass, so it is a matter of saving the $$$ of a custom set of reamers by using someone else's rendition.

Belts are generally an affectation on cartridges...

regards,

Rich

sorry to transpose your name sequence, cranial-rectal inversion this early in the am.
The 500 A-sqaure may be the answer if it is non-belted.

Thanks,

Rich

The .500-A-Square is belted. Forgot to mention that, sorry.

You guys are N-O-T helping! I needed somebody else to take the plunge and buy those reamers a year or two back...saving me the hassle and $$$.

Sigh..........................

Rich

Aren't you sort of re-inventing the 505 Gibbs? Brass would be cheaper your way, however.

510-505 gibbs...gets my vote...

IS,

Sorry, I misunderstood the cartridge you referred to. I read it to mean the fairly new rimmed case 500/416 Kreighoff - Wolfgang Romey.
Thats why I asked, who would want such a thing?

I am with boom stick on his suggestion.

IS, deal is, you don't have enough taper to get a .510" bullet in there and still headspace. (Coming from me!)
I've beat these guys over the head with my idea of a 3.1" COL 510-416 Rigby, and managed a few "it might work"s, but that's about it.
With even a minimal .010" neck thickness you're looking at .530" at the base of the shoulder (follow me?) which means to get .020" per side (beyond minimal) you need .570" at the top of the body. With a 2.9" case and .590" at the base that gives you less than .007" per inch taper. Bottom line, it would probably work on a case-by-case basis, but it would test the boundaries far beyond what most people interested in hunting what would need a 600g bullet are interesting in exploring, if you get me.
Now, make it 3.1" COL with a 535g RN going about 2350 fps and I'm in! (Still wouldn't take it to Africa without serious backup.)

bb,
remember, this is your opinion

the HH magnum cases, and all it's progeny, headspace on .032 total

you can NOT drive a .520 brass rod into a .500 hole without a sledge hammer .. the boundaries aren't even close... "most people" have an autoloader pistol they don't think a thing about headspace with.. the only time this is problems is with poor reloading technique

the 45 acp, 30 carbine, and a zillion other autoloaders headspace off .025 or less

the 470 AR uses .038 and stops like a brick

you have to use belted or 500 jeffe brass to get a 3.1 oal and 2000fps... make it 3.35 and it's not hard work, but you have to have a powder column and room for a bullet
jeffe

Yes, Jeffe, my opinion, but not one easily accepted. Mostly from having the throngs shout me down. I won't say it can't work, just that I've been successfully talked out of it.
As for the 3.1" round, my computer model (limited as it is) gives a over 102g of water under a 1.2" bullet - long enough for a 535g - and enough powder to get over 2350 from a 24" bbl I think. I'd be interested in what ol' QL had to say about it.
Specs are: .575" at top of body, 35* shoulder, .40" long neck, .012" thick. Ought to hold about 129g of water to the top, around 26g of which will be bullet. If we say powder is about 85% weight of water that gives us almost 87g The 470 Capstick does almost 2400 with a 500g and a little less powder, so increase diameter and powder and bulelt weight a bit and decrease MV a bit and seems you should break 2300 no prob.
"Only one way to know...."

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Yes, Jeffe, my opinion, but not one easily accepted. Mostly from having the throngs shout me down. I won't say it can't work, just that I've been successfully talked out of it.
As for the 3.1" round, my computer model (limited as it is) gives a over 102g of water under a 1.2" bullet - long enough for a 535g - and enough powder to get over 2350 from a 24" bbl I think. I'd be interested in what ol' QL had to say about it.
Specs are: .575" at top of body, 35* shoulder, .40" long neck, .012" thick. Ought to hold about 129g of water to the top, around 26g of which will be bullet. If we say powder is about 85% weight of water that gives us almost 87g The 470 Capstick does almost 2400 with a 500g and a little less powder, so increase diameter and powder and bulelt weight a bit and decrease MV a bit and seems you should break 2300 no prob.
"Only one way to know...."

Bwana-be,
You are spot on with the numbers IMHO.
I am jumping on your wagon, but I am rooting for a full length cartridge suitable for the CZ 550 and Dakota 76 African boxes.

See the "500 Mbogo" dummy forming directions on the "other thread" started by Idaho Sharpshooter.

Yeah, I saw. Let's just say my accountant isn't happy. :-P

I mentioned that I formed up a 500 Mbogo but didn't bother with it because I thought the shoulder was a little shy to headspace on reliably. But was interested in taking another look after Jeff looked into the 470 AR on the RUM brass. I think the 500 Mbogo had the same or a little more shoulder than the 470 AR which seems to be working just fine.
Take care,
Dave

Guys- you can successfully headspace off of a .010 shoulder( probably less) if it has minimal taper. Jeffe is correct. As for case taper, .003/inch will work just fine. There are alot of old wives tales out there that are just plain not true. If Jeffe had listened to all the nay-sayers the .470 AR would have been stillborn.
I built a 12 FH rimless version that had a .010 shoulder and it headspaced perfectly.-Rob

KISS principle here, use existing cheap brass, Rigby at $2 per, easy to open up boltface, no euro weirdness or pricey stuff...read this a budget blaster.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
KISS principle here, use existing cheap brass, Rigby at $2 per, easy to open up boltface, no euro weirdness or pricey stuff...read this a budget blaster.

Rich

Rich,
You talked me into it.

Keep It Simply Smart

This is the fundamental business principle of HA!/DOA.

The .470 Mobogo reamer with live pilot may be used with "fifty caliber" pilot and then a "fifty caliber" neck and throat reamer to 2.940" neck-2 depth from boltface ... or get a custom reamer to any neck length and headspace you want.

rip...are you going to be the first to build one?

so how much to convert an existing 416 rigby?

RIP- Using a .470 Mbogo reamer( few and far between anyway.) followed by a neck/throat reamer is poor machining practice and will almost assuredly result in a major chamber ring. Trust me on this, I've tried it and it doesn't work This can interfere with extraction and ruin the barrel. Have a full reamer designed and built and it will probably cost the same amount anyway.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP- Using a .470 Mbogo reamer( few and far between anyway.) followed by a neck/throat reamer is poor machining practice and will almost assuredly result in a major chamber ring. Trust me on this, I've tried it and it doesn't work This can interfere with extraction and ruin the barrel. Have a full reamer designed and built and it will probably cost the same amount anyway.-Rob

Rob,
Trust me, good chambers can be had the way I describe, with just a bit of care. I have several rifles made that way: No chamber rings, fired brass that is perfect, and an accurate rifle.

Undoubtedly it would be best to make a new reamer and headspace guage, with a longer neck of caliber length.

I'll call that one the .500 Tatanka-Rigby. Still leaves room for resurrecting the .510 Tatanka-Gibbs.

RIP- Did you do a chamber casting? I'll bet there are rings that were polished out. Rarely this works, most of the time it results in non-concentric chambers. Given the cost a full reamer is the way to go.-Rob

Okay, I think I give up. I am sitting here with unformed, cylindrical 416 Bell Rigby brass and a set of digital calipers in the other. Follow me closely...
At the mouth, the case measures .578", and is nominally .012" thick. And, it is (again) nominally 2.955" in length. Subtract .512 for a bullet, and you have .066" to use as a head-spacing neck. That is .032", a tremendous amount of shoulder to headspace on. Add a belt and call it the .500 A-square. I just don't need a stinking belt on my model. Does anybody know of such an animal??????

thanks,

Rich

RIP,

you are beginning to make some real sense here...
that's starting to scare me, and make my committment to the Rigby case waver.
How do I get to your gunsmithing website and look more at the 470 MBOGO?
Is RUM unformed brass readily available?

thank you for your insight...really

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
At the mouth, the case measures .578", and is nominally .012" thick. And, it is (again) nominally 2.955" in length. Subtract .512 for a bullet, and you have .066" to use as a head-spacing neck. That is .032", a tremendous amount of shoulder to headspace on.
Rich

.578" - (.012*2)=.554" - .510 = .44 ', or .22"per side. Add to taht the fact that the neck does't happen at 2.955" - rather more like 2.55 or so - and the taper means more like .575" at the top of the body, which means more like .020" per side.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
At the mouth, the case measures .578", and is nominally .012" thick. And, it is (again) nominally 2.955" in length. Subtract .512 for a bullet, and you have .066" to use as a head-spacing neck. That is .032", a tremendous amount of shoulder to headspace on.
Rich

.578" - (.012*2)=.554" - .510 = .44 ', or .22"per side. Add to taht the fact that the neck does't happen at 2.955" - rather more like 2.55 or so - and the taper means more like .575" at the top of the body, which means more like .020" per side.

when you get under .032, i'll think it's too close ... that is, unless you are worried about the 300 HH cases having enough headspace

jeffe

Bwana-be,
You are right on with the numbers. I verified that by necking up .470 Mbogo brass with .50BMG bullets seated nose first and got some pretty nice dummies: there is 40/1000" of shoulder - neck difference, .020" step all around.

Idaho Sharpshooter:
HA!/DOA is a parody that merely describes my wildcat fun. I use gunsmiths in Kentucky and Tennessee. "HA!" for Hilltop Arms should be a clue as to the fun here. Lately, HA!/DOA has become a "seal of approval" for orphaned cartridges and wildcats that deserve more attention, like the .470 Mbogo.
My primary focus is popularizing the .338 Lapua Magnum necked from .308 to .458.

Now that you have converted me to .510/.416 Rigby, you want me to go back to .510/.505 Gibbs?

A Gunaholics Anonymous intervention may be due now ... just for me ... carry on.

Ron,
just neck the lapua to 510!!

it would be a fireform and trim beast, but you could use your 458 lapua to geterdone
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Ron,
just neck the lapua to 510!!

it would be a fireform and trim beast, but you could use your 458 lapua to geterdone
jeffe

Jeffe,
Yes I have thought of this, and sumbuddy has done it before.
That would require I blow out the body taper of the Lapua, and I don't want to stretch the neck past .458 from .338: I know that works, and don't want to start getting any split necks, etc.

I would need to go to Rigby Basic Brass like the .470 Mbogo does, and might as well go full length, as I see it ... now where is Gunaholics Anonymous meeting?

i know i have been fired

but the thing that appeals to me about the 510-lapua is i think correct me if i am wrong...on a rigby length action and not too many mods you can spit out 50 bmg bullets???

call it the 510 HooA!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
call it the 510 HooA!

Go to it boom stick! It is your baby.

i have to make my 404 boom stick dummy round first

nice name for the round though...

rip am i correct on my assumption of the rigby action and the 510 HooA!

i preffer the 500 mbogo

ain't that Lapua a 416 Rigby case? We are determined to endeavor to persevere...thinking a reamer maker may have the answer. Got the unformed 416 case off the shelf: 2.958oal, .58.583" at pressure ring, .580 at 2.300". That figures in a calibre neck, plus .100" for a short 45-degree shoulder. Neck thickness is .015" nominal, so... .510" bullet plus .030" caseneck = .540, = a .020" shoulder to headspace on.

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Buffalo Arms just called...Bell is out of 416 brass and not going to make any more. I am getting 48 out of the 250 I ordered.

Sigh.............................

Rich

Jamison is selling 416 basic brass. Grafs has em for a price.

Yep,
The .338 Lapua Magnum is Identical to the .416 Rigby with same body taper up to the point where the 20 degree shoulder of the Lapua cuts in ealier than the 45 degree shoulder of the Rigby.

The Lapua is about 0.2" shorter than the Rigby. Actually 2.900" - 2.724" = 0.176" shorter.

The .470 Mbogo is 2.945" max. Trim to 2.935".

A good source of .416 Rigby basic brass is needed ... Jamison has the machinery of BeLL/BELL/MAST now.

Jamison and Quality Cartridge both supply .470 Mbogo brass now???

Thanks to gixxer for the Jamison .416 Rigby Basic info.

http://www.grafs.com

I couldn't find the Jamison .416 Rigby Basic brass, but I did find .404 Dakota at a great price, and I know Jamison made a bunch of that for Dakota Arms.

Maybe a call directly to Jamison is in order for some blank head .416 Rigby basic?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP
Maybe a call directly to Jamison is in order for some blank head .416 Rigby basic?

Yea, I would not try Horneber, he might want like at least $2.00 a pop. Thats about how much he wanted for RUM basic brass.

How much shooting of this beast are you
entertaining? 40 cases should be enough for
any sane person (5 reloads x 40 = 200 rounds.)
Or save those for hunting, neck size up .450
Rigby brass.

I vote for .500 Rigby as a name.

May I suggest that the same headspace gage for
the .416 and .450 Rigby be used to set the
shoulder on the .500 Rigby (or whatever name
you want to give it)? Just seems logical to keep the same shoulder placement as part of a
series. Also easier on reformed brass from
.416 and .450 Rigby (nah, this has to be done
from .416 basic, its so easy)

As I have a .500 Schuler/Jeffery (semi)custom, I made up .500 Rigby dummies by just running .416 basic into the 500 Schuler resizer. Made the neck and shoulder trivially without touching case sides. But they (shoulders) look awful small. This could never
be a commercial cartridge.

Although around 20 degrees,
since you are forming the brass the first
loading should set the shoulder to the 45 degrees (original Rigby spec shoulder I recall) Set Barnes slug in 500 Schuler seating die.
Very impressive looking cartridge!

Let me say its more logical in appearance than
the rebated .500 Jeffery/Schuler. Easy to
get brass, already feeds well in the CZ550
action (I have never gotten around to getting
my M98 based/Blackburn magazined .500 Schuler
to feed well)

Also, I had a 9.3 x 70 reamer made up, along with a minimal headspace gage. By Clymer.
Total was $250. Thats not bank-breaking.
Should be about same for .500 Rigby.

PAC-NOR is experienced at making barrels for
and mounting barrels to BRNO 602/550 actions.
Barrel is about $220, mounting and chambering
$250. Barrel should be long throated to play
with .50 BMG slugs, higher twist rate to handle
long target slugs (maximum toy factor).

.510 bore, 1/14 twist. throated for Barnes VLD.
Single loading, of course.

Such a rifle MUST have iron
sights and a barrel mounted sling. $250 for
parts (NECG parts), $150 to mount.
Bluing, $200-300

Thats about $1400. Rebed stock yourself for
fatter barrel. Another $100 if stock lacks
crossbolts.

Plus original rifle. Say $900
Total around $2500. Not bad I say...

Would be much less money
(about $400 total) by reboring/rechambering a .450 Rigby CZ550, but Labounty reboring said no years ago, CZ barrel steel is too hard and variable in those barrels, causes chattering.

Main thing is getting blessing of an experienced
big bore wildcatter, which I am not. You can
never get too much (constructive) input before
starting a new engineering project...

Ciao for Now

Mano