Hey Guys!

No, this is not that tired old BS discussion about should we or should we not use the tired old worn down 45/70 for buffalo or not. This is not a discussion "Is the 45/70 A buffalo Cartridge", so let's not even go there, it is a waste of time for this project.

First, I will state that I don't consider the 45/70 a buffalo cartridge--End Of Story! All cartridges can be enhanced how? By the Bullet of Course! Can a 45/70 kill a buffalo? Yes it Can! End of Story.

Regardless of how I feel, or you, there are folks that are going to do certain things, like use a 45/70 for buffalo, no matter what I say, or you, it's gonna happen!

I have been charged with loading and choosing the right bullet for a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 for a fellow that I know who is going with my buddy Louis to Zimbabwe later this year for buffalo. Now, this fellow is more of an acquaintance, and a friend of my friend. I met him a few years ago in Mongolia and have had little or no contact with him since then. My buddy Louis of course has volunteered my services to assist the guy in this endeavor, in which I have accepted of course. They will be hunting with Andrew, so I suppose I will also be assisting Andrew in his endeavors as well to make sure this fellow is successful in his! So that is how I come about this.

This fellow has never seen a buffalo to the best of my knowledge. He does have some hunting experience, has been to the RSA for plains game, and has hunted other critters in other areas, but I think very little dangerous game if any. So in this respect I will also be doing some sermons on the phone with him and see if I can get it across to him to shoot until you cannot shoot anymore! In other words, do not shoot once and wait to see what happens!

OK now to the jest of our little game! I say game, all of you know I take these things rather serious, unless of course I have been tipping the Grey Goose, or these days I have a little sipping jar full of nice clear liquid a friend of mine brought me, that a friend of his "Home Cooked" and it is very nice I tell you. But, unless I have been sipping, this stuff is serious! HEH..........

I already know the direction I am going to work in. I know the bullets that I am going to work with, the powders, the loads basically and even what is going to happen in the terminals. What I would like to see is "What Would You Do?"

There is NO CHOICE here--He is taking 45/70, and that is the end of it. So don't bog us down with other BS that is wasting time.

Now, your challenge is, what bullet would you choose, what load, what velocity would you go for, all these things to consider. He is going to Zimbabwe late in the year, it's gonna be hot as HELL. It's a lever gun, can't push things too far, 45000 PSI--and better hang around 42000 PSI to be on the safe side, so you cannot go HELL BENT FOR LEATHER here!

What Do YOU Do? What Choices do You Make?

I'd smith the marlin to feed 2.75" oal and shoot the 330 458 CEB BBW13 and 295 non con.

Michael, there are some great hot loads on the market for the 45-70, by Buffalo Bore, Garrett, and others. Other than changing the bullet, I don't know that you'll develop a load more powerful than some of these. But as you know, the bullet can make the difference. Flat Nose hardcasts are quite popular, stay together, and act like solids. Steve Garrett has purportedly put them thru Cape Buffalo lengthwise when promoting his ammunition. A 540gr Garrett Hammerhead at 1,550 fps or so from a Marlin Levergun just might do the trick.

Based on the bullet weight of the 458 Non-Cons (330 and 295), I imagine you could drive them to 2,000-2,100 fps without too much trouble.

Non cons for damage AND penetration. Two non cons and 3 solids.

I would get a special Marlin batch done to match the micro groove depth to increase accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I'd smith the marlin to feed 2.75" oal and shoot the 330 458 CEB BBW13 and 295 non con.

Not an Option.

Biebs

You are correct on Buffalo Bore, Garrett and they have, and would do the job I have no doubt. I want to do better than that! Or see if we can. I think--THINK that we can cause more trauma than what a big heavy slow moving cast bullet can do. I want to inflict damage and trauma on that shot #1.

Yes, the 325/295 BBW#13s can be driven to over 2000. They could be a reasonable choice. Just not so sure about penetration of the 295 from an odd angle, something not dead broadside. The 325 solids, no issue there, they penetrate.

Boomy, the damned things shoot in a hole at 50 yds in my Marlins now? What more accuracy would you want? Most all the new marlins are not micro groove that I am aware of.


Good going Boomy and Biebs. Still lot's of thought that can be put into this however.

More!
Michael

As above I would start with the 325/295 combo and see how it goes--it sure seems to be working in my 458SS albeit at much higher pressure.

Seems the logical starting place--if it doesn't work on terminals go to Plan B.

And tell Andrew to not let the guy shoot a buffalo in the ass with the 295 non-con save that for the 325 solid



SSR

Ok was not sure of the rifling used. If they shoot great, they shoot great. No problem. The 45-70 in the single shot was loaded longer historically from what I remember. I think this is more about the marlin and bullet and not the 45-70. In a single shot loaded longer I don't see why the 400 grain solid BBW13 would not do a Texas heart shot on a buff. The non con has to punch through the ribs or sternum and shred the heart and lungs. I can see that in a 295 non con at 2,300 FPS or thereabouts.

I think the 45-70 is a great buffalo cartridge! Killed thousands of American buffalo I'm sure. Yes they aren't Cape buffalo but bigger! I'd use the 325/295 in a heart beat. I have two nice little doubles to shoot them in too. I almost decided to take one of these to Austraila on our up coming hunt. I think the 45-70 would do just fine. With the #13s it would out perform all of the old BPEs.

Since you are handicapped by the low pressure ceiling, as well as limited case capacity and Cartridge Overall Length:

Consider the shorter copper North Fork FPS,
and the CPS might be short enough too, to be worth a try.

It depends on whether you can use a smaller volume of faster powder with the lower start pressure of the brass bullets.

Might compare copper 325-grainer to brass 325-grainer in the solids first, and see which one you can make go faster.

That might be the only load needed: 325-grain solid at plus 2000 fps MV.

Can you do that with either North Fork or CEB and stay within pressure and length limits?

Then just load the Brass 295-grain Noncon as fast as it will go, for the first shot.

Follow it with whichever solid goes faster.

Just sayin' to be playin'.

Load it with Punch bullets and don't look back.

Some of you know, probably most of you, as I think I have told the story before, that I actually did shoot a buffalo back in 2002 with a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. Odd as it seems to us now, and 2002 does not seem all that long ago, but there were very few choices of bullets for 45/70 back then. None that would provide much penetration anyway. I had not intended to shoot a buffalo with the 45/70, as I felt it was still coming up a bit short, but I had it in Zimbabwe when Scott Bailey and I were in the Matetsi shooting elephant, with 458 Lott at the time. Scott was enthusiastic about the little Guide Gun, and nothing would do but we give it a go on buffalo. I was shooting a 420 gr Cast performance bullet at a touch over 1900 fps as I recall. Penetration was adequate, I did kill the buffalo, but the gun and load were merely adequate if everything went perfect. The first shot did not go perfect! So I could have been in some shit to say the least! Patience and a little time provided us with a perfect shot on the second round, and things worked out well.

I am not entirely sure that the 45/70 will ever go past just being adequate for the mission if everything goes perfect, even with todays "Super Bullets", which will for sure add to the enhancement of the cartridge no doubt about it.

Buffalo and 45/70--Penetration is everything. We have to get there first. Today, my god, we have a multitude of bullets that will no doubt do the job, as penetration is there. I think nearly every single bullet mentioned thus far will get the job done. You guys have chosen well in my opinion!

Let's look at some of your choices

Biebs talked about the cast bullets. They would get the job done, I am sure they have the penetration to get to the vitals, and they have been used before in this capacity and dead buffalo being the result. I don't like cast bullets! They would never be my choice again for this application. So, I kick them out. The bullets/loads, ammo that Biebs mentions are bigger bullets than what I used, but I am not impressed with cast and the way they sometimes shear off when hitting bone.



Cross, Sam, Boomy, Biebs, all liking, and mentioning the BBW#13 325/295 combo. Well this is not bad either. The 325 BBW#13 Solid without a doubt will penetrate and do the job asked of it easy. About any velocity it would be used in 45/70 it has enough penetration to do the job from many angles, probably not a dead rear end shot, but it has enough to crunch and munch from most other angles and do it to it!





The 295 BBW#13 NonCon at 45/70 velocity gives me some pause and concerns. I concur with you, dead perfect broadside shot, it will get to where it needs to be and do a number. I am a bit concerned at 45/70 impact velocities, and that less than perfect shot, and less than perfect shooter gives me concern for this scenario.



Now remember, this is 45/70. If I were in a 458 Super Short running 2500 fps, then I believe that 295 BBW#13 Would do a lot more, currently I can run the 295 up to 2130 fps in the 18 inch guide gun 45/70, and that is max. 15-17 inches penetration, doubled, tells me that it will do the job, but since I am dealing with an inexperienced shooter, and have concerns about his terminal knowledge, and no time to teach that much to him, then I want something that is going to give me a little more penetration, little more crunch and munch for that first shot out, which may or may not be perfect. Most all of us are capable of using this bullet and it would be successful, but.........

Whitworths Punch bullet for sure has more than enough penetration, and would do the job nicely I would think from nearly any angle.




RIP mentions the North Fork CPS bullets, and these in fact are two of the bullets I am also looking at for that first shot out. They gave the penetration needed without a doubt, both the 325 and the 350 version in the 45/70s we tested some time ago. If one could combine them with a good solid to back this thing up, just in case, these two bullets do provide trauma up front, as they do expand, and the penetration needed to do the job.

I am looking at both of these for this mission.





Now, of course I am thinking of a different BBW#13 Combination than what has been mentioned, and that is the 400 BBW#13 Solid, and its matching 370 BBW#13 NonCon. Respectively I can run these in 45/70 at 1932 for the 400 and all over 2000 for the 370. The 370 gives just a tad more penetration than the 295s, and a tad more in my test medium can be significant. The same with the 400 BBW#13 Solid, quite a bit more penetration than the 325 at the two handicaps we have, short nose projection, and lower velocity of the 45/70.








I am quite sure that if it were any of us, we could do with any of the bullets spoken about. What must come under consideration is that I am working with a total novice in this arena. I am not sure of his shooting abilities, nor his judgement on the proper shot, nor his reactions afterwards. So, I have to have a little room to work with here. So my choices are the 400/370 BBW#13s and the two North Fork CPS--325/350. Much of the final choice will lie upon POI with my rifle, and in the end HIS RIFLE. I am choosing the 400 BBW#13 as the Solid to back up with, so POI must be close or matching with the trauma inflicting bullet up front.

Michael

Michael, I am sure your choice will work, because you will test it adequately. Just don't discount the Punch bullet for the 45-70 with the hardened lead core they will be a bit shorter for the weight inorder to better fit the overall OACL of the Guide Gun.

These 405 grainers can be loaded 2000 FPS+ in the Guide Gun and will give plenty of penetration

Many years ago I fooled with a Siamese Mauser I built in 45/70. I damn near duplicated .458win Mag results with it and a few tricks.. The tricks used were as follows:
1. Throated the chamber.5 inches longer.
2. loaded the bullets out .3 inches for more powder capacity.
3. Used a compressed load of IMR3031
4. Bullet was a brass BORERIDER of 500 grs with only .3 inches of bearing surface at .458.
5. Crimped super tight just over the boreRider section.
6. 26 inch barrel.
Now in a Marlin guide gun you might be able to throat it out to whatever max COL the thing will take. You might also be able to gunsmith it to hold longer cartridges. Use BoreRiders for reduced friction and higher speeds for the same pressures. I even moly coated my bore and the bullets for a lil extra velocity. The difference in performance between this and a .458 win mag was maybe 25fps. -Rob

This novice needs to learn how to shoot reeepeated shots, FROM THE SHOULDER, without removing it from the shoulder. (or raising his head off of the butt stock) If he already shoots this way, great. If not LEARN !


The PH should not let him take a shot at over 50 yds/m.

Keith

For buffalo? Use a good soft point and don't be stuipid with the pressures. Better a gun that works than 100fps more speed - Once.

A 480grn woodleigh at 1700is fps would be my initial choice because the Swifts are too pointed for a Lever (I think), but thier are plenty of good softs betwen 450 and 500grns that work very nicely

Looking at this situation - obviously the solution is a 458 B&M Alaskan!

QD/OL indicates a 93.49grs H2O overflow capacity for a 458 B&M Alaskan vis-a-vis 79.00grs for the 45-70 Govt case

How about approximately 2273fps with the 330gr Barnes BND SLD (FN). Approximately 2254fps for the 350gr NF BC FN. And approximately 2025 for the 400gr Barnes Buster. All from a 20" barrel and all loadings under the Pmax (MAP) for the 348 Winchester, would that work?

I can't do any of the CEB .458 caliber bullets as I don't have any of their specific measurements to create their general characters in QD for use in QL.

Michael:

First, I will tell you that I would not be afraid to hunt buffalo with my Browning BLR 450 Marlin or a properly loaded 45/70. As you said, it is the bullet that does the heavy lifting and now we have the right bullets. You don't need to smith the gun or shoot bullets heavier than 400 grains anymore.

In the 450 Marlin, I would load a 400 grain Woodleigh Hydro in the tube. In the little 20 inch barrel of my BLR, 46.5 grains of Accurate 1680 gave me 1847 fps with the 400 grain Hydro. I would then stoke the magazine with 400 grain BBW#13s with the load of your choice. All you need to do is get close (within 50 meters or so), place your first shot well and you will have a really dead buffalo. These bullets and the Barnes Busters really work! I intend to take my next bison with exactly this combination.

Dave

I hear you buddy! Yes, on this particular project, there are no options for altering the gun, or anything else. Box stock Marlin Guide gun, 45/70. Our only options are bullet choice, that is it. Nothing more. Nor is there any options on cartridge change--Marlin Guide Gun 45/70. And one has to work within those parameters, nothing else.

Dave, you got it. Bullet does the work. Many of the bullets mentioned here, almost all, will do the job within the parameters set, as does the 400 Hydro you pick as well. And we both choose the 400 BBW#13 Solid. Winning combo. I concur.

I have some 370 BBW#13 NonCons loaded now, going to start shooting in the morning in one of my guide guns, by the end of the week I hope to be sending this fellow some loads to try out in his gun, see how they do. Regardless of what I choose first bullet up, North Fork CPS or BBW#13 NonCon, either will be backed up by the 400 BBW#13 Solid.


Ganyana, you start running 480 Woodleighs at 1700 fps in a Marlin Guide Gun you are getting all over ugly PSI already. You can only take a Marlin to around 44000-45000 PSI before things begin to get sticky. Running 405 Woodleighs at 1800 is running 42000 PSI, weight and bearing surface equal pressure--a 480 at 1700 would be pushing things in one of these.

Michael

Cappy

If I were doing a lever gun there is only one solution OUTSIDE the parameters I set. 50 B&M Alaskan.

But, that is neither here nor there, and is a moot--

Marlin Guide Gun 45/70 out of the box stock. That is our only choice.
M

I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now ! Ready to take on anything with my 1885 Browning !
I wouldn't go beyond 400 gr and make sure the OAL is ok as the Marlin doesn't like long rounds . Don't know the shooter but some aimed rapid fire practice would help.

i took many many water buffalos with my marlin guide gun 4570 ,they are creatures of more than 800 kilos and sometimes charged ,never experienced a problem due the cartrige ,i used mostly garrets .

Didn't know you could do so swell as this:






What are the powder charges in these loads?

I want to use them in my 45-70 Governments, except the Trapdoors.

You could not do any better.

Yep, those slick brass banded bullets allow for lower pressures and higher velocity,
using full-case/mildly compressed loads of faster powders.

Yep, without excessive pressure, can't do that with Woodleighs, even the 405-grain, let alone the 480-grain.
.
.
.
About 52.0 or 53.0 grains of RL-7 (kids should not try this at home)
used to get me well over 2000 fps with 400-grain Cup&Core in a 22"-barreled Marlin 1895SS.
No problems with extraction or primer appearance, but 3 shots with that and I had to quit, as all the screws in the gun were loosening.

Dropped back to the Elmer Keith load of 53.0 grains of IMR 3031 for about 1800 fps with 400-405 grainer.
Very accurate, good load.
Benchmark would be close to IMR 3031.
You need a powder faster than that.
RL-7
H322
H4198

What powder used for the wunderloads above, please?

RIP

Using 50/RL 7 for the 370 BBW#13 and 49/RL 7 with the 400 BBW#13. Slick as can be, several different Marlins. I have not hooked up the pressure trace on them, but they are good to go.

It is hard to be RL 7 in a 45/70 case.



Mete

I love an 1885!

Thanks!

RIP:

With conventional bullets like the 400 grain Speer, I have really good success with Accurate 2230. With the longer monometal bullets, Accurate 1680 works great.

Dave,
Good choices I am sure, but I have to keep it simple, not accumulate too much powder.
I like to have on hand all types of Hodgdon Extreme stick powders, a few Alliant Reloders (7, 15, 17),
and one Accurate powder, 5744, for "reduced" loads.

Surely I could get by with RL-7 in the 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now ! Ready to take on anything with my 1885 Browning !
I wouldn't go beyond 400 gr and make sure the OAL is ok as the Marlin doesn't like long rounds . Don't know the shooter but some aimed rapid fire practice would help.

I have been messing with the Marlins for many years. While I love them, they have lot's of very aggravating limitations! I much prefer the 1886 and the M71s. The Marlin does have one very nice feature, being able to easily mount a scope on top of the receiver. 1886s and M71s not so! You can get by with a scope forward mount on the 86s-71s. COL can be a touch longer with the 86/71s, they handle a bit more pressures, little more robust and to me handle extremely well. In fact, I made myself a couple of 1886 Guide guns, shorten barrel to 18, barrel band front, very nice rifles.

Speaking of 1885s, I have a few, have one set up in 458 B&M. Struggling with sights on these for a few years, and with the break in terminals right now, I am back to that. I found I had a XS that I had bought, forgot about, made for the top of the receiver for the 1885s. Put it on yesterday, really like the way it looks, ordered two more yesterday. Sending up an 1885 to have it converted to 50 BMAK. Will use this sight--nice ghost ring. Wish I could see better to utilize the irons more.

RIP
With the 400 BBW#13 Solid I started getting sticky at 50/RL 7. Dropped to 49/RL 7, Marlins were happy. With weight comes pressure, the 370 NonCon at 50/RL 7 the Marlins are happy. I found I have plenty of these on hand, so will be shooting this morning.


Oh, and while many of you have great suggestions for this project, such as JWP & Whit with the Punch bullets, Dave and the hydros, and a few more--all will work, but I have shelves full of BBW#13s and North Forks, that I know will work for this project as well. With that simple fact of logistics, I won't be searching for other bullets to bring into the project, I have plenty on the shelves that need to be utilized, that do not come up short in any way.

M

Michael458, the CEB's are indeed excellent bullets

Look forward to a report on the hunt!

Rusty

Yeah, this has turned out to be good fun I think. I will keep tabs on this thing. I have to find out exactly when these two Monkeys are going, but I know it's very late season, Oct/Nov I think. So yes, I am ahead of the curve and will have this sorted out long before then. In fact, I am on the range now, just moved to 50, come back in to load up and go back out and check some POIs.

I loaded the 50/RL 7 and the 370 BBW#13 NoNCon, it's a hammer no doubt, nothing sticky, but you know you are getting on up there when you shoot and the lever comes down! HEH..... It's giving a dead steady 1990-2000 fps with that.

I will keep you boys updated on this as I move through the day.

Really good fun. I am also playing with my 1885 in 458 B&M. It has been a few years since I messed with it much. I am making a 295 BBW#13 shooter out of it. Loading now!

Michael

Have been playing with my son's stainless steel Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70, non-ported. I've reached the same conclusions as Michael, but also have been using AA's X-Terminator powder and having good results. It seems to give more velocity with slight compression and the same pressures.

Just was on the range with my BLR .450Mar and reached 2265fps out of the 20" bbl with the CEB 370 gr. Reached 2165fps with the 400gr CEB. Neither load, using X-Terminator powder, was over maximum and I still have some work-up room.

Holy cow Prof, that is some good velocity! Don't ya just love that BLR?

quote:

Just was on the range with my BLR .450Mar and reached 2265fps out of the 20" bbl with the CEB 370 gr. Reached 2165fps with the 400gr CEB. Neither load, using X-Terminator powder, was over maximum and I still have some work-up room.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Holy cow Prof, that is some good velocity! Don't ya just love that BLR?

Dave, I am with you--

That is SMOKING!!!!!!!

Yes, Max, you can do about anything you ever want to do, On The Planet--With that combination! The penetration is there my friend, no doubt about it.

Alas however, cannot get there in a Marlin! Not ever gonna happen! I have already backed off just a tad on the 370 from near 2000 to 1958 actually, and it is handling better. No problems at 2000, but the gun shoots and handles better at 1 gr less RL 7. With the 400 just pushing up against 1900 right now in my OLD WORE out Guide Gun.

I have some results from todays first range sessions and some photos for you guys. Give me some time to work on them and I will get them up this afternoon.

For the last couple of years I have been so damned tied up doing terminals, pressure work, barrel strains, and all this other stuff, it's been a long time since I had really any time to do anything else, this is turning into a very fun and different little project for me!

Michael

What Jwp475 said about the punch bullets loaded by Grizzly Cartridge +1.

Elmer thought 1800 fps with 400-grain bullets was good whomp.
1900 fps plus with better bullets, and such a short barrel, 18", is great.
I know what you mean about the lever wanting to pop open.
Need to keep a good grip with both hands on such a light-for-power rifle.
And small buttpad = ouch

Exactly, Michael. Can't get there with a Marlin. BUT, you have proven you can improve the .45/70 performance with the CEBs. (OK guys, no comments about kissing).

With a cape buff and a 45/70 I would not use an expanding bullet.

We do know that Garrett 45/70 ammo will work...

I would want a bullet @400 grains.
I might use a North Fork CUP point of my first shot, followed up by NFFP bullets.

Michael, if you want to use one of the bullets you make I would make up one at 400gr with a pretty wide, but not a full wadcutter bullet, that feeds through the Marlin.

And I would not load it too hot.

With a monometal solid bullet you could probably drop down to 370 or 375 grains and still get adequate penetration, if you need the powder space to get enough velocity.

I do know that a 450 North Fork FP will penetrate @50% farther than a 480gr Woodleigh Solid, when both are shot out of my 450 No2...

Cape buff have been killed with 44 Mag handguns, and hard cast bullets, it is all about knowing the limitations of the gun/ammo/bullet you choose, and NOT exceding those limitations and making a good shot.