NE450

Oh for sure, buffalo have been put down with 44 handguns and various other less than desirable firearms and bullets for many years. And will continue to do so no doubt.

With the 4 bullets I am looking at for this mission, all have proven penetration capabilities, all tested here in 45/70s. We know that the NonCons will double the penetration in animal tissue vs the test medium, we know that with the solids you can add as a rule of thumb 35% penetration in animal tissue vs test medium that I use.

Also, must remember, this is not me taking a 45/70 Guide gun for this mission, this is a total novice, a friend of my friend, and hunting with my PH Andrew. So I do what I am doing as much for the Safety of Andrew as anything, or I might leave him to his own.......... HEH........

No need to make up a new bullet for this mission, we have them in place now? Perfect, 400 BBW#13 Solid. Even the little 325 BBW#13 Solid gives more than enough penetration to accomplish the mission, and might hit a bit harder up front with a couple hundred extra fps.

I might be out of touch, but not aware of a 400 North Fork CPS, and if there was, that would be getting rather long, 350 and 325s is what I have, and have tested, penetration well into buffalo territory with both. In fact, in a 45/70 at 45/70 velocities, these two CPS penetrate as deep as 500 Nosler Partitions, 500 Woodleigh Softs, and 500 Swift A Frames from a 458 Lott at 2275 fps. Deeper than the Nosler and Woodleigh, and equal to the Swift. Penetration is there.



For my purposes here I brought out of retirement my oldest Marlin. This was the first one, had it forever it seems. Toted it all over the world for a time but it has been put away since 2002. Its been beat up and is just plain box stock. After I retired it, I have a friend down in Tupelo, Mississippi, Sydney Ryan. Well Sydney is the crazy bastard that does all the wild scrimshaw work on the ivory grips for various handguns and such. Sydney also does some crazy engraving, not high dollar hand engraving by any stretch, and he will tell you so as well. Sydney takes a mototool and scratches some fairly neat work out, especially for the $$ value.

I think he does a better job on wood than on the metal, but it's not bad, I would not do it on a really high dollar rifle by any stretch, but for a old beat up guide gun it's a different story.









No, it's not big dollar work, nor hand chiseled, nor anything else, it just is what it is, and not saying it's anything it ain't so don't even start it. I can't even imagine taking a mototool and doing something like this! I had Sydney do a bear scene on Ruger #1 and it's incredible looking, really very very nice. I also had a few of those ugly laminated stocks and I had him dress those up too, and they are just incredible looking, one is a lion scene and it's extremely nice. Far better than just a plain ugly nothing laminated piece of plywood.

You won't believe this, but this old wore out ass rifle has had something between 1000 and 1500 rounds shot through it, everything from way the hell over pressure loads, cast, every .458 bullet you can imagine. Have never cleaned the barrel. Never run a brush down it. Never had solvent in it. Nothing. Now I have taken carb cleaner and sprayed out the action, I dare not take one of those things apart myself, dried it, squirt if full of oil afterwards, but that is the extent of it's cleaning history. It has not been babied or cared for very much. After Sydney scratched up the metal works on it, it got re-blued at that time, and of course it's been retired for many years since. So it has seen no use since that time.

I hear lever guns don't shoot for crap, and never quite understood that concept. Here is what I got yesterday at the 50 yard mark with this beat up old horse.












I don't quite understand the difference in POI between the 370/400s, with the 400 being lower, that is rather unusual with the BBW#13s? But, I can still work with that, if the fellow sights dead center at 50 with the 400s, and let the 370s fall in a touch high, that would not be an issue in the field.

As you see the 325 CPS and 325 BBW#13 are in the exact same hole, same POI at 50. I like that.

The 370 BBW#13 NonCon is in the same spot as well.

Oh, and I promise if I could shoot better these groups would be better, anything that is out of the hole is my fault I assure you!

Still pondering these things. I may load up some now and send to this fellow and let him try them in his rifle to see how they do.

I have to get rather busy getting the B&Ms ready to leave for Australia in a few weeks. I have all this to do with 3 of the rifles, POIs, sighting in, and on top of that letting the boys get some practice shooting in before leaving.

Michael

Michael,

I'm definately no expert on levers - heck I don't even own one - but I can tell you one thing for sure...anything in front of any of those four loadings is DEAD! Very nice.

Perhaps knowing your friend is a 1st timer with the lever and with the hunt the best loadings for accuracy and comfort (read here less recoil = more confidence) would be the 325gr NF CPS and the 325gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid. Make Andrew aware of the distance limitation to keep these two loadings within buffalo killing penetration and this combo should make for an enjoyable and safe hunt.

P.S. Nice scroll work and darn accurate!

I think I would go with a 370, or a 400gr Solid.

I like the heavier for bigger animals.

Sydney Ryan is a true artist.
No one could do better with the medium and tools used.
Excellent artwork.
Ditto the 45-70 loads.
Now to see if the friend-of-a-friend's rifle
likes one combo best.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I think I would go with a 370, or a 400gr Solid.

I like the heavier for bigger animals.

NE450--Me too, I have always leaned in that direction. And it's tough as hell to get over it. I know, that those 325s, both of them, will get to where I want them to, and exit, the CPS doing lot's of damage along the way, but today I still lean to the 370/400s, same as you.

But, keep this in mind too, I will be in Australia in a few weeks with two Super Shorts, now we run a lot more velocity in the super shorts than a 45/70 can churn up, but I will be using very light for caliber bullets in those guns on buffalo. So we will have some clearer ideas about these little bullets, that think they are big! I could change up easy to the 325s once I see similar at work.



RIP

You know, I think the same of Sydney, and considering how he does the stuff it still amazes me. I have zero talent in those sort of areas, and it baffles me. Hell, I can't even draw a stick man properly.

Yes, gonna load and send them out to him next week. Then probably won't mess with it until I return.

Oh, and if I keep practicing I might catch up and be able to shoot as good as you! I thought that was pretty spiffy shooting for the lever guns, especially one that has never been cleaned and has over a 1000 rounds through it! Don't understand why folks want to scrub barrels on big bore rifles?

M

Doc M,
What do you mean you never cleaned that Marlin?
If you fired a CEB brass bullet in it you cleaned it!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
What do you mean you never cleaned that Marlin?
If you fired a CEB brass bullet in it you cleaned it!

Exactly Correct! That is how to clean a big bore rifle proper!

I think it was 2001 was in Alaska with an 1885 in 45/70. Wet and cold, every damn day of course. After a few days, my buddy Lou looked at the muzzle end of my rifle and went nuts. Brownish/red rust was ooozing out the end. He went crazy and said I needed to clean it and how awful and just carried on about it. I looked up, told him straight up that soon as I shot the first round at the moose we were hunting that the bullet would clean the bore just fine! And it did of course.

HEH HEH........ Ain't much for cleaning bores on Big Bores.

Michael

Michael is funny about cleaning. He never cleans his guns but goes nutts if his range or gun room is dirty.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael is funny about cleaning. He never cleans his guns but goes nutts if his range or gun room is dirty.

Well, I can tell you why! If you don't look down the bore, then you don't see it's dirty! So, don't look!

Nahhh, it don't bother me at all unless something quits shooting proper. Like small bores do. Big Bores, just don't happen often that I know of. Now I do clean--but for feed and function purposes.

I have a friend that does quite a bit of handgun shooting. One day I walk in the range and he is sitting there scrubbing the bore of a 45acp 1911 barrel? I ask "what are you doing to that barrel?", he of course replies that he is getting the crud out of the bore, been shooting cast bullets, bore is dirty. I said, "So what, just shoot some jacketed bullets". He looked at me a cockeyed. He is a little older than me, I told him he was wasting his time, and since he was older than me, he didn't have that much time to waste! We have bickered over handgun barrel cleaning for years! LOL.................... Clean for function--absolutely. I have a 1911 that has well over 30000 rounds through the same barrel, I have had the gun since 1985, and I bought it used. I have wore out several extractors, hammers, sears, blued the top end so many times the writing is nearly worn completely off the gun, and it still shoots in a hole at 10-15 yds, and imagine it would at 25 as well if I could see to shoot 25 yds!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

HEH HEH........ Ain't much for cleaning bores on Big Bores.

Michael

As much as you shoot you'd have to hire someone full time to clean those barrels if you did lol

[quote]Load it with Punch bullets and don't look back.[/quote This man is right on, they are costly but will penetrate better than anything there is, just look up penetration tect on the 4570, may be to much in a heard, back up with Kodiack bond core bullets, Alaskan Bullet works,

can we move this into humor?

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
[quote]Load it with Punch bullets and don't look back.[/quote This man is right on, they are costly but will penetrate better than anything there is, just look up penetration tect on the 4570, may be to much in a heard, back up with Kodiack bond core bullets, Alaskan Bullet works,

Kev, Penetrate better than anything there is? And you know this from some silly test work someone did? You expect that one can actually test these sort of things before testing them in animals? Probably some bozo testing in "Wet Pack" or some other stupid test! Don't you know those kind of tests mean nothing, and the only thing that counts is testing in the field? So you are going to shoot your solid first, then back up with a soft Kodiak bullet?

OK then, sounds interesting.

Michael

I've been on this forum for many years, use to post all the time when I lived in CT, I moved to Alaska a long time ago and have not post here nearly at all. One reason is guys like michael458, just looking for some trouble re minds me of my job I retired from.Anyway for leveractions the puch is great,talking tube feed rounds, my 50 Alaskan loves them and I have testes them and they do penetrate better than any of my HC lead, if you have a problem that I like them and say so ,I really do not care.Kodiaks are also very good bullets for levers and work great.

Oh one more thing I would just use 500 grain Kodiak or a HC where I live, just saying where you hunt will determine on what you will load, anyone will some common sence can tell you that so stop you pie hole,guys on computers

I not happy to say this ,but your,Michael458, lever in the above pic is a goreous rifle, very nice cravings on stock ,nice rig

Now where is that ignore key when I need it?

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
I not happy to say this ,but your,Michael458, lever in the above pic is a goreous rifle, very nice cravings on stock ,nice rig

I think Sydney is quite the artist myself, and especially the tools he is working with. I really like what Sydney does to the wood better than the metal works. I had a few laminated stocks on some rifles, no checkering, no nothing, and I am not a laminated fan. So I figured to have Sydney dress these up a bit. I really should show these, they are even better than this old Marlin. And the price he charged for them even better! Dressed those stocks up incredibly well.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
I've been on this forum for many years, use to post all the time when I lived in CT, I moved to Alaska a long time ago and have not post here nearly at all. One reason is guys like michael458, just looking for some trouble re minds me of my job I retired from.Anyway for leveractions the puch is great,talking tube feed rounds, my 50 Alaskan loves them and I have testes them and they do penetrate better than any of my HC lead, if you have a problem that I like them and say so ,I really do not care.Kodiaks are also very good bullets for levers and work great.

Come on now Kev, don't be that way! Guys Like Me? No man, never looking for trouble, I promise! Just having a bit of fun is all! I would like to hear more about that test work too. I am not so sure I buy into that silly stuff? Maybe you can convince me it's worth the time and effort involved? Who knows? I can always learn something!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I would like to hear more about that test work too. I am not so sure I buy into that silly stuff? Maybe you can convince me it's worth the time and effort involved? Who knows? I can always learn something!
Michael

I read somewhere there is this crazy person in South Carolina that has tested thousands of bullets and documented the results, almost all in newspaper. I bet he did not learn a thing!!

ALL BS just shoot a round nose solid and forget all the testing that has been done.

To change my previous post, There are a couple of crazy people in SC not just one. Would not want to leave you out Sam.

Yeah when the two of us get together no telling what's going to happen.

Thanks Michael458 for being a good sport and not replying back something ,well not nice. I do like your rig very nice.I have done some informal test nothing fancy, the punch bullets penetrate the best for me,also did very well in my 500L handgun, Dave clements did the work on my handgun, he does good work. I am getting a new 50 Alaskan done by Dave clay he is working on right now, have a 50Alaskan takedown model, 19.5 barrel and got a HC 580 grain going about 1720 fps out it not bad.I do like the NF bullets with the CPS they look very nice,BBW do they make solids in a .510 bullet, and 500 grains would be great?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
ALL BS just shoot a round nose solid and forget all the testing that has been done.

Woodleigh all the way!

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:I am getting a new 50 Alaskan done by Dave clay he is working on right now, have a 50Alaskan takedown model, 19.5 barrel and got a HC 580 grain going about 1720 fps out it not bad.I do like the NF bullets with the CPS they look very nice,BBW do they make solids in a .510 bullet, and 500 grains would be great?

Hey kev, I have a .50 Alaskan that I like very much! It's just a bit of a handful!

Whitworth I hope you know I was being sarcastic about RNs. They should be left for cartridge collectors and not shot at game.

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
Thanks Michael458 for being a good sport and not replying back something ,well not nice. I do like your rig very nice.I have done some informal test nothing fancy, the punch bullets penetrate the best for me,also did very well in my 500L handgun, Dave clements did the work on my handgun, he does good work. I am getting a new 50 Alaskan done by Dave clay he is working on right now, have a 50Alaskan takedown model, 19.5 barrel and got a HC 580 grain going about 1720 fps out it not bad.I do like the NF bullets with the CPS they look very nice,BBW do they make solids in a .510 bullet, and 500 grains would be great?

Hey Kev

Buddy, No Malice here! So no thanks needed. Now, how about hang around awhile with us on AR, we have weeded out most of the real BS crap, and mighty fine folks here to visit with. I was just hacking on you a bit about the test work--This is "Test Central" here, and we do terminals along with many other things. In fact, just go right upstairs to the "Terminal Performance" thread, to the best of my knowledge the longest thread in the history of AR.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...761078671#5761078671

We have tested every big bore bullet ever devised, and then some that have never been seen, nor heard of before, and then a few more. I am very aware of the Punch bullet, our good friend right here on AR--Dave Bush--wanted to test them and I think he sent both .500s and .458s to test, and we did. They are a good bullet, and yes, they are suitable and would do the job on buffalo I have no doubt about it.

There is a big move towards .500 caliber in rifles, see my B&M page, RIP here has .500 cartridge, and Cappy has .500 as well, same as RIPs--Gees, I forget things, but anyway, we also have a .500 B&M Alaskan, which we have a full line of bullets from both North Fork and Cutting Edge. .510 is a little more difficult to come by, right now, I am not aware of a North Fork or Cutting Edge that will work in a lever gun in .510 Alaskan. Yes, a 500 gr bullet would be perfect. You can get these done by either CEB or North Fork, but it would be a custom order.

Use the link that is below my post, that takes you to the B&M site, and there is a lot of info there, not just on the B&M cartridges/rifles, but many other things as well.

Do hang around this time Kev, lot's of good folks here, and welcome back.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Whitworth I hope you know I was being sarcastic about RNs. They should be left for cartridge collectors and not shot at game.

Oh No worries about Whit! He knows these things very well--Despite being totally INSANE!!!!!

quote:

Hey kev, I have a .50 Alaskan that I like very much! It's just a bit of a handful!

Yeah, handful alright--You could not pay me to shoot that thing! I would much much rather jump on one of Robs 600 OK than that thing! Whit is INSANE I tell you!



I am sure that thing has come back and hit him straight in the top of the head! NO THANK YOU!!!!!

There Will Be No Days For Me Like That!!!!

Michael

Thanks Michael458,I'll try to stop in more often,yeah that is a problem I have run into .510 not a whole lot to choose from.So that is one reason I have used punch bullets, they do have them in .510.And Whitworth my 500L is a handful as is, a 50 Alaskan in a handgun man that is over my head, who put that monster togather for you,very nice wood on her

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Whitworth I hope you know I was being sarcastic about RNs. They should be left for cartridge collectors and not shot at game.

Of course! I was being sarcastic as well with the Woodleigh comment! LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
Thanks Michael458,I'll try to stop in more often,yeah that is a problem I have run into .510 not a whole lot to choose from.So that is one reason I have used punch bullets, they do have them in .510.And Whitworth my 500L is a handful as is, a 50 Alaskan in a handgun man that is over my head, who put that monster togather for you,very nice wood on her

Hi kev -- Jack Huntington put that one together. He built my .500 Maximum as well (and my .475 and .500 Linebaughs!). That is actually Micarta, not wood -- he made the grips as well. Yeah, it is difficulat to shoot -- you need a whole lot of grip tension, a helmet, and a saddle.......