Was admiring the aesthetic qualities of my 470 Mbogo and 416 Taylor ammo the other day, so I snapped a couple photogs for the trip scrapbook. I just noticed fritz454 dropped by the site, so I thought I'd share them in case he and others may be interested.

Here's the 470 Mbogo ammo. Jamison brass, 500gr Bridger Solids on the left, 500gr Swift A-frames on the right....



And here's the 416 Taylor ammo. Qual Cart brass, 400gr NF CPS's on the left, 400gr Swift A-frames on the right...



They all feed slicker than whale crap on an ice floe, and look like the hammer of Thor, eh?

Cape buff be afraid...very afraid...



Cheers,
Canuck

DAMN!!!!!!!! The 470 Mbogo ammo looks impressive!!

Wow ... I don't think one could rationally accuse you of being "undergunned."

Am glad I get there the week before you ... might not be anything left following you

I'm counting too ... 21 days.

Canuck, those don't look crimped. I'd be concerned about bullet setback in the magazine with such a big thumper. Don't you crimp?

Thanks for posting Canuck. How fast are you pushing the MBogo. I know you'll have a great trip. Stay safe and don't forget the camera.

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
DAMN!!!!!!!! The 470 Mbogo ammo looks impressive!!

It is impressive to shoot too.

Dave E./470mbogo, let me play with his last fall.

Hog Killer

WOW...Looks great Canuck!

The extra pictures like that really do add to the photo album. Preparation & planning are half the fun....

It is interesting to note the variation in the amout of exposed lead between the Swift A Frame .416 and .475 calibers. I suppose the folks at Swift were thinking 2400fps +/- for the .416 and 2150fps +/- for the .475.


Regards,
Dave

Sorry for the stupid new guy question, but what brand of bullets are the "400gr NF CPS's"?

Thanks.

nf= north fork...cps=cup point solids

cannnnuk...

why not the north fork softs and get more velocity and higher weight retention for the taylor??? i know you and a-frames go way back but we are talking safari here also why bridger and not n.f. for the mbogo? not critical just inquiring

p.s. i hope when ruger comes out with its 375 you will be one of the first to do a 416 AMERICAN (416-375 ruger for the lay person)

hope you have a great trip!

Thanks, boom stick.

I just bought my first "real" big bore rifle, a .416 Taylor. The closest thing that I had up until now was a '95 Winchester in .405.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the .416 Taylor. This site has been a wealth of information.

Dave

when the 416-375 ruger reamer comes out rechamber and have a true 400gr@ 2400 at exceptable preasures

the taylor is good, the 416-375 ruger will be great! yes some claim no excessive preasure (canuck) but for the other 90% it will be great

Boomy,
because the swifts are a hyper premium bullet, that is proven with these guys, and is the, i repeat THE best 470 softpoint at speeds past 2300fps, for a conventional bullet

jeffe

One of the things I love about this sight.

Just when I think I may have finally gone over the edge with this rifle loony thing.

I can sign on to ARL and find that not only am I just an average gun loony. When it comes to heavy rifle weirdo calibers that we may only use a few times in our lives yet spend exorbitant amounts of money on. I am actually a less than average rifle loony.

keep up the good work guys!

Booomer..

No offence to NF who also makes an outstanding soft point, but I do agree with Jeffe. The Swifts are tried and true...no flies on them in my book. I have lots of them in my inventory and have loads developed. Why fix something that isn't broken?

But, more than that, I had no reliable way to get NF bullets until very recently. Mike can't ship to Canada. Swift won't either (nor will Midway), but there are importers of Swift bullets in Canada (Russell Sports in Calgary AB).

I recently moved back to within a reasonable driving distance of the US border. So I can now order any bullets I want, ship them to Montana and drive down and pick them up (1 hour drive each way) and import them myself.

Its still easier to get other bullets delivered right to my door, so thats what I usually do. Until they ran out of the convenient Barnes Solids that I planned to use, that is....hence my switching the solids to NF's at the last minute.

PS: I will post a pic of my 416T brass later tonite if I can (going camping for the long weekend so will be packing tonite). Anyway, I shot a few rounds with my 416T last night. Qual Cart brass, 72gr of RL 15, CCI 250 primer, 400gr Swift A-frame....average velocity for three shots = 2381fps. Primers look as close to when I seated them as any load I've ever shot in any of my rifles. And the group was 0.65" at 50 yards, which will also do in a pinch.

Cheers,
Canuck

yes the a frames are the best soft in 470 but i was in reff. to the 416 softs. glad you are one step closer to being a yankee canuck

have a blast!

p.s. upgrade to the 416 ruger when it comes out yes there is nothing wrong with the taylor it just gives you something to do between safari's

quote:

p.s. upgrade to the 416 ruger when it comes out yes there is nothing wrong with the taylor it just gives you something to do between safari's

Boomer...you are almost as good as my GF is at spending other people's money!

Sorry to disappoint, but I think I'll keep the Taylor for a while yet.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
Thanks for posting Canuck. How fast are you pushing the MBogo. I know you'll have a great trip. Stay safe and don't forget the camera.

I chrony'd my final loads last nite. The A-frames are clocking just shy of 2500fps, and your solids came in at 2485fps.

Thanks for the well wishes. Will take lots of pics and give you a full report on your solids when I get back.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Canuck, those don't look crimped. I'd be concerned about bullet setback in the magazine with such a big thumper. Don't you crimp?

Been so busy I missed a few questions on this thread.

The only ones that are crimped in the pictures are the 416's with the NF CPS's. I only crimped them cuz Mike is pretty clear that is his preference for his bullets, and because my buddy Don_G insisted I do it as well.

I normally don't crimp at all with my 470M. Now I know that ain't cool with a big thumper and I'll catch some heat for it, but I honestly haven't seen a difference. I haven't seen any bullet setback to speak of, and even if it did I doubt I'd notice any difference in accuracy...I only shoot it from the bench when necessary!

The other (major) problem is that I have yet to be able to get my CH4D dies to put a crimp on the case without crushing it. After losing a couple cases this way (at about $4 CDN each), I quite trying.

And besides, my mentor Dave E. never crimped for it either.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

I will post a pic of my 416T brass later tonite if I can (going camping for the long weekend so will be packing tonite). Anyway, I shot a few rounds with my 416T last night. Qual Cart brass, 72gr of RL 15, CCI 250 primer, 400gr Swift A-frame....average velocity for three shots = 2381fps. Primers look as close to when I seated them as any load I've ever shot in any of my rifles.

Here's the pic as promised...



The pic doesn't really capture it, but you can see the primers aren't squished flat anyway!

Cheers,
Canuck

Back to the crimping question:

The NF bullets have a much smaller surface bearing on the case. They will set back more easily than most bullets.

The main issue on bullet setback is not accuracy, but peak pressure.

My 416 will set back the bottom round in the magazine a quarter inch if the powder isn't already too compressed. A $12 LEE crimp die and the problem never comes up again.

See, Canuck - that's what's wrong with that crazy wildcat - you can't get a LEE crimp die for it!

But LEE would make him one wouldn´t they? I their custom shop is quite good.

quote:

My 416 will set back the bottom round in the magazine a quarter inch if the powder isn't already too compressed. A $12 LEE crimp die and the problem never comes up again.

See, Canuck - that's what's wrong with that crazy wildcat - you can't get a LEE crimp die for it!

I don't think I have to worry much about bullet setback with that crazy wildcat...just to get the bullets in that deep is a trick and comes with a satisfying crunch. Bullet "growth" is more concerning in this case, I think. But I haven't seen it happen yet.

My 416T RCBS dies do not crimp worth crap for some reason. Could be the trim-to-length of 2.490" is too short??

My 470 Mbogo dies seem to do a decent taper crimp though.

So, how much difference does bullet set back make on peak pressure?

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

Where did you obtain the properly stamped .416 Taylor brass? How does it perform, compared to fire formed brass?

Thanks for any info.

Bearhunter,

Its "Quality Cartridge" stock, from Midway. Near as I can tell, its no different from the cases I formed from 458 win mag. I'm happy with it so far.

I understand A-Square sells 416T brass as well, but I'd be leary about that. If you look for a recent thread of mine on this forum you will see why. Their dimensions for the 416T are different than most existing rifles and dies.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

My 416 Rem load is 77 gr IMR4895, NF CPS, WLR. At 3.6 COL it is right at 60,000 PSI according to QuickLoad.

If it sets back .1 inch (3.5 COL) the predicted pressure rises to 66,000 PSI.

If it sets back .2 inches (3.4 COL) the predicted pressure rises to 73,250 PSI.

I'm not sure if this is pressure rise is really there, but the numbers are sobering.

This is a good reason to crimp, and to choose powders that fill the case so that they can't set back much in any event.

quote:

My 416 Rem load is 77 gr IMR4895, NF CPS, WLR. At 3.6 COL it is right at 60,000 PSI according to QuickLoad.

If it sets back .1 inch (3.5 COL) the predicted pressure rises to 66,000 PSI.

I would never have suspected a 10% increase in pressure based on seating the bullet 0.100" deeper!!

In the course of developing loads I dick around with seating depth a lot (as most other people do I suppose). I have never noticed a big change in velocity based on varying the seating depth only. I will have to play closer attention!

With my 416T I don't think I could seat it 0.100" deeper if I wanted to.

I shot the NF CPS's last night... They shoot real good. Will have to scan a target and post it later.

Cheers,
Canuck

Chris,
someone did a load test (which I assume went to destruction) on the 9mm ... it was found .050 made a huge difference in pressure, and .075 blew primers. While this is not the same depth ratio, seating bullets deeper does decrease available capacity, and can take a reasonable load and make it BAD.. so a 500jeffe, uncrimped, when beaten in the bottom of a mag could make a jump in pressure.

Hi Chris
Just one more reason to use a cartridge with moderate pressures such as the 470 Mbogo. Hope you and Don have the time of your life.
Take good care,
Dave

dave...

when the mrc p.h. actions come out next year there is gunna be a bunch of new mbogo's around. any hopes of being saami approved soon???

Don

I specifically did that test with the bullet seated at different points. In the 416 Rem, the difference between seating in the front groove and the third groove (.120") was less than 2000psi or roughly equivalent to 1 grain of RE15. Of course, the smaller the case, the larger the percentage change so the greater the pressure change. That's why I don't put much faith in those computer programs. There's a whole lot of variables that they couldn't possibly know about or deal with.

If a rifle has a fairly short throat, I've seen where seating deeper actually reduced pressure. Even then, there is a point where seating ever deeper, will begin to increase pressures, but I have never seen anything like what your program predicted.

NF Mike,
Obviously correct and proven by your actual pressure testing.

Don's program is obviously not allowing for throat and free travel of bullet before hitting the lands.

Pressures would not rise so drastically unless the throat shortened by as much as the bullet was setback.

The other case where setback of bullet actually reduces peak pressure means that giving the bullet a little more run before engaging the lands, means that it eases on through the initial engraving with less delay, doesn't dwaddle on the transition to engraving, and is moving along increasing the combustion chamber volume more quickly to let off the pressure:

PV = nRT

Universal gas law.

Canuck's load is very modest.

I use either the Qual-Cart brass or Remington .458 WinMag necked down: mine are identical in weight and internal capacity of brass. It is or was the same brass. Remington may not be making it anymore for Qual-Cart's use, so trust but verify.

F215 primer.
400 grain Hornady RNSP.
RL-15 75.0 grains.
Barrel: Shilen stainless 14" twist, 26" long.
Velocity 2418 fps average
3/4 MOA
temperature 80 degrees F
not compressed, just a 100% load
no pressure signs primers look like Canucks

quote:

shot the NF CPS's last night... They shoot real good. Will have to scan a target and post it later.

Thanks for the input, guys (Don, jeffe, Mike and RIP). I do find internal ballistics fascinating. My pressure findings with my 416T (from interpolation of pressure signs and velocities) do jive with what Mike and RIP have said about throat length. Mine has a very short throat...in fact I had to get the throat re-cut an additional .110 just to squeeze the Swift A-frames in.

Mike, as promised above, here are some pics of the groups I shot last nite. The scan isn't great (should have put something colored behind the holes) but you'll get the point. I only got one velocity reading on the second group...it was getting too dark and the first two shot got an "ERR" reading.





I am sure these groups are not even totally indicative of what the bullets will do in my rifle. The scope isn't made for precision, and I was in a bit of a rush trying to get everything done before dark. And they are the first two loads I tried to shoot for groups! I think I'll load a few of the 71.5gr load and go hunting.

Cheers,
Canuck

Mike,

I was wondering whether the prediction would hold or not. I am using the lowest "start pressure" to try to compensate for the very low engraving force required for your bullets, but it's obviously not low enough! Measured data trumps computer prediction every time.

Canuck,

Nice to see you are finally getting over that flinch!

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Canuck,

Nice to see you are finally getting over that flinch!

I think I finally beat it out of me.

Aversion therapy works...every time I flinch I make myself shoot the 470 two more times from the bench.

Cheers,
Canuck

nfmike...

do you have any plans to make a 470 soft?

the 470 cal reeely needs a worlds best soft point

17 Days Canuck!!!!! From targets to hornery beasts! You checking your list?
Good luck man!

quote:

Nice to see you are finally getting over that flinch!

No matter what you do, sooner or later you ARE going to flinch.

The secret is to learn HOW to flinch

I remember an incident that went like this as I almost jerked the rifle off the shooting sticks.

"What happened?" I was asked
"I flinched!" I said
"But zebra is down!"
"I know"
"How did that happen?"
" I don't know"

quote:

F215 primer.
400 grain Hornady RNSP.
RL-15 75.0 grains.
Barrel: Shilen stainless 14" twist, 26" long.
Velocity 2418 fps average
3/4 MOA
temperature 80 degrees F
not compressed, just a 100% load
no pressure signs primers look like Canucks

RIP,

Do you know the OAL of this load?

Tx,
Canuck

It fits in a Ruger M77 MkII box. Less than 3.35", can't tell you exactly at the moment.

No prob. Just curious. Dave E loads up to 75grains as well (I think), and I see BW has as well. I can't stuff that much RL 15 into a any of my cases. I seat the Hornadys to the canellure. OAL approx 3.225".

Cheers,
Canuck