Reading another thread that has been rolling along talking about "name" custom rifle makers and whether they will or will not build something has made me think..............what the HELL can someone do to a bolt action rifle to make it worth spending 30-40K+ on to begin with? Seems like a massive waste of money to me...even if you had it to spend to begin with. Is it REALLY going to be that much better than a stock rifle that has been gone over to function properly & shoot accurately costing 4-5times LESS MONEY??? So everyone that is "in the know" on bolt action rifles that cost as much as a nice car, please tell me why they are even remotely worth that much money to begin with. And not just because "some can afford it while most can't" Yes....there is an ass for every seat I want to know what makes them WORTH what they cost. Are they really that much better?

Iron Buck,

They are not worth that much money at all in your sense of the word worth as they will not function any better than taking a production rifle and spending say $1000 to tune everything.

Even if I start from scratch:

$4000 for a very expensive action
$1000 for a great stock blank
$4000 for great stock work and accessories
$1000 for a great barrel including great sigths
$1000 for scope, mounts, and rings

I am still only at $11k. That $11k will be a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and function flawessly.

I can also spend $800 for any production made rifle.

Throw away everything away but the action and spend:

$400 to completle true and rework everything in the action - seftey, trigger etc

$400 for and after market fantastic stock plus beeding

$400 for a great barrel installed

$250 for great sights installed

$750 for great scope, mounts and rings

I have only spent $3k and I will have and incredible rifle that will not have any less performance than the $11k or $40k rifle.

But your are buying different "products'

Does a $75,000 BMW function any better than a fully loaded $25000 Honda Accord...nope.


By the way, I have had Fred Zeglin re-work 3 used stock remington 700 BDLs keeping the existing factory "piece of junk barrel" for about $400 and all of them consistently shoot 3 brands factory ammo into 3/4 inch groups and handloads hover around 1/2 inch.

Total for those three guns was $2200. Any one of them functions as well as $3000 or $40000 custom. They literally have about 500 rounds a piece threw them with no failures to fire, feed, extract, or eject.

A $40,000 rifle is buying art not a rifle.

Guys,

Regarding current production Bolt guns over 40K:

As an avid collector & hunter, I absolutely draw the line for newly commissioned custom Bolt-guns at 15,000.00 - There is just no value in them past this, or none that I have ever been able to determine. No more accuracy, reliability, looks, etc. Even with a ton of embellishments; engraving, inlays, AAA wood at some point it becomes almost a waste to put big $$ into a Bolt action. Sort of like spending a ton of money upgrading a Ford Taurus, but, hey, each to his own. A couple of exceptions would be: Original .416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, or 500 Jeffrey. But that's another subject.

New Custom (I emphasize the use of the words "New custom") bolt guns (less a few exceptions) are total money losers. I've seen what are considered the best sell for cents on the dollar in comparison to fine DRs and Shotguns on the secondhand market.

Recent exceptions to this rule are D'arcy Echols, George Hoenig and Kenny Jarrett (none of which sell / sold for much more than 10K originaly) These bring good money and appear to appreciate over time...I just saw a used Jarrett sell for almost the same price as new at a recent auction - Good for Kenny!

Of course all of this goes out the window when it comes to a guy with tons of $$ that just wants to have the "ne-plus-ultra" to impress his buddies (that don't know any better), etc...40K bolt Actions - That ain't me. At that point it becomes DR time!

I just ordered a "Custom" .375 built up with a GM 98 action, full-integral barrel (quarter rib, swivel band, front sight), great wood, trapdoor-grip, full-length triggerguard strap, rust blueing, all sorts of cool stuff (no engraving)...Will look like a period English rifle...all this cool and functional stuff for under 13K with a recognized brand name to boot! BUT, once I use it, it will take several years for me to be able to move it for any sort of break-even / modest profit.

40k plus "new custom" Bolt Action Rifles - go figure!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Does a $75,000 BMW function any better than a fully loaded $25000 Honda Accord...nope.

Well... in terms of will it get you from point A to point B any faster if you obey the speed limit - then no.

But I have driven hondas, and I have driven BMW's. The BMW is in a different leauge.

Just like rifles - even though both may shoot identical groups off the bench: There is no comparison between a $800 production rifle and a 7-10K custom stocked to fit.

However, I think a good question is at what point do you start paying for the name on the gun rather than the work done?

At what price point are you just paying for the privalidge of saying your rifle was made by "so-and-so"?



.

I was the one who called both David Miller and D'Arcy Echols. Mr Echols was adament that there are several riflesmiths out there much better at building rifles than he, mechanically speaking. But there are a class of consumers who turn up their noses at Rolex watches and pay $200,000 for a platinum Vacheron Constantin. They pay it because they can. Mr Miller wants his rifles to be used 100 years from now, and their value to rise accordingly. There is nothing wrong with these concepts, its what made America great.

So all you really get according to them is their legacy, which if thats what you collect its fine. But there is only so much that can be done mechanically to a rifle to make it accurate and reliable. And as stated that can be done for around $11,000. Your rifle is as sound as a Miller, Echols, Purdy or Jefferies. I leave out H&H because they admit that if their rifles are shot " excessivly " whatever that means, the rifle may need to go back to the factory to be brought back on face, but if you can afford a H&H that will not bother you.

So I guess the short answer to your question is nothing.......................JJ

Personally, I've never seen a bolt rifle that I thought was worth more than $10,000. Miller and Echols build $3,000 rifles that have been gunwriter hyped to the point that the impressionable are willing to pay 10+ times that for 'em. At least Purdey, Westley, and Hartmann & Weiss build decent $10,000 bolt rifles, although they want a lot more than that too.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?
Sure you can buy a factory Ford or Toyota and it will probably work just fine but don't expect to win the Indy 500 or Bajs 1000 with it.
It's not all gunwriter hype when you stake your life on your rifle. And if you can afford the tarrif for expensive world class hunts what is wrong with spending a little extra for a super accurate, reliable rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?
Sure you can buy a factory Ford or Toyota and it will probably work just fine but don't expect to win the Indy 500 or Bajs 1000 with it.
It's not all gunwriter hype when you stake your life on your rifle. And if you can afford the tarrif for expensive world class hunts what is wrong with spending a little extra for a super accurate, reliable rifle.

Well if someone spends 80 or 90 dollars an hour for brakes on most cars then it should include the brakes themself, and if it didnt I would say the person is not very bright. Because Bubba's garage can put the brakes on just as good as the dealer can and charge less.
Now a 40k plus bolt rifle, ummm no thank you. I don't care if you engrave the whole thing.

[QUOTE Mr Miller wants his rifles to be used 100 years from now, and their value to rise accordingly. There is nothing wrong with these concepts, its what made America great.[/QUOTE]

THat may be so.....but the reality of it is there are LOTS of 100 year old factory rifles from Winchester, Savage & others that are still going strong. What is it that Mr Miller does to his rifles that makes them SOOOO MUCH more durable in his minds eye? I would think that MOST factory rifles (even from today) would esily be able to meet that critera & be functinal 100 years from now as long as they are even basically cared for...cleaned & oiled each year.

So far it looks as if these prices have NO justification other than the fact that some people are willing to pay the asking price. So they actually have over inflated "hypathetical" values that are not mechanically justified.....Like Enron

Paying $40K-$100K for a rifle. Dammit, I'm having hard enough of a time paying off the Nissan Maxima I just bought! Still gotta love the Marine Corps.
Yeah it's a work of art, same concept if you're browsing through a fine-arts part of town. Paintings that look like a 5-year old got bored and decided to splash paint on canvas and call it Abstract, and they go for 5,000 easily. Or speaking with fellow tattoo artists who have done 10,000 backpieces because they look amazing, yet the ink fades. I believe most of the Purdy's, H&H's and such are aimed towards the more snobbish, or "Prim and proper" group like my damn soon to be ex-In-Laws. "Why Sir, this is a mighty fine Merkel, but it just simply does not compare to a Holland and Holland!" *insert snobbish chuckles* "Here, have another cup of tea."
Maybe it's just me or I was raised wrong, but it drives me up the wall. I've held a Rigby .600NE, amongst other work of art rifles, and every time it's left me wondering. Wondering why would any man, regardless if he had the money or not, spend that much for a art form that he would take out to the range maybe 5 times in his life, or maybe even take out hunting once, than wall hang it?
I'm hanging tight to the rifles I have bought or built for myself, and guarantee most of them are not art forms, but will work every time I pull the trigger if I do my part.

Actually I can't imagine why anyone would even pay $2000 for a rifle. Ever wonder how inexpensively a rifle could be made that functions well and shoots into say 1/2" which is much more accurate than required for a hunting rifle. That would even do quite well in a long range varmit rifle.

What I'm sure of is that someone believes that the smoothness of a Sako has much more value that the ruffness of say a Rem 700. The smoothness is really nice when your sitting in the living room telling your buddies about it but, when is the last time you noticed it when you were in a situtation where it might actually mean something? I've never shot a Cape Buff but imagine if you will the sport stopping in the middle of a charge to admire how smooth his action is! At that point I'd bet he doesn't even know.

with most buyers of the highest end items in any catagory that I know are after the most refined and best piece availible in that catagory.

"Keeping up with the Jonses" is so often quoted by those of lower social standing and means. It has been my experience that the lower on the social income ladder one is, the more they are concerend with "out-doing the neighbors," where as those of considerable means strive for the best because they admire the product and what it took to build it. They have their money and have no need to prove it by flaunting a mechanical object. Besides, their friends and associates have just as much money and nice things in the catagories they admire.

Many people appreciate the finest things that can currently be made by machine, with the finest materials, and with the most skilled hands. THey have aburning desire to own the "best" than can be created in today's world. Of course, building a mechanical object to this level of current perfection is only possible by a very select few in each field. It costs dearly to create this level of quality.

There definitely is a difference in the finished product. People who make the BMW/Honda comparison to Miller/factory are very much short changing the Miller product. The gap in quality is far wider than that.

But of course class envy will always rear its ugly head. I have heard many, many times more lower income people speak disparingly of those of higher means, where as those of higher means do not look down on some one strictly based on their income. But of course many of those looking up the ladder never seem to see it that way.

If you have a burning desire to have th ebest bolt rifle that can be created today, then spend $40 and be happy. If you are happy with less quality, than spend less and be happy.

Take a look at this video...

It gives a pretty good overview of the type and extent of hands on work that 'can' be used to build a rifle. Granted no bolt guns were shown but, the level of hand fitting & extreme precision etc. could be applied to a magazine rifle if the maker(s) were so trained & skilled.....and the clientele wealthy.......very very wealthy.

Holland & Holland

I wonder what the actual % cost of laybor(hours) is for one of these rifles or shotguns?

Regards,
Dave

There are many talented shotgun/riflesmsith out there that can build you a from the ground up custom rifle w/ all the bells & whistles for far less than $10K. It will look & function as well as a $40K by a "known" builder. I don't want to talk bad about people w/ money, all of my clients have money, but when you have that kind of money, it doen't mean anything to them. Owning something others don't have means something to them. So they happily pay for outragious cars, art, wine, homes & guns because others look at their stuff & some even wish they had it. Many of these wealthy folks don't even use the stuff they buy. Then, BTW, they die & some other guy buys their stuff @ an estate auction, often for less than 50c on the dollar. I don't get it, but it's not my money or my place to tell someone they shouldn't spend theirs the way they want. Just don't rub it in my face.

Personally, I don't understand paying 40k for a customized M70 Winchester, but then again, I spend my money the way I want, and other people spend their money the way they want. I have a pre 64 in 375 that was bought new for around $150 in 1959. It has been to Africa twice (unfortunately not by me), used for leopard, two buffalo and some other game....can't find the list that the guy had who was the original owner who I bought the rifle from. I have had it over 30 years..taken elk, deer with it, and have taken it on 4 unsuccessful bear hunts. I have turned down offers of $1900 for it.
Somehow I can't see a 40K rifle being worth 10x its original purchase price...ever. I don't see someone taking that same rifle out in the rain, snow, dust, mud, etc. that you encounter hunting. I think it is more of a status symbol, or something to brag about..to quote Seinfeld, "Not that there is anything wrong with that."
I think the same of people who own Ferrari's...yes, they are incredibly fast, top speed of some approaching 200mph...but exactly where are you going to be able to drive that fast?
Anyway, they are true works of art, but deep down, they are walnut, M70 or M98 actions (or something similar) that won't function or shoot any better than a rifle costing 1/20 as much.
But again, to each his own and I am glad people buy them so I can admire their works of art.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?

I think that good gunmakers in the U.S. (such as the ACGG guys) are way underpaid based on their level of skill and expertise. That does not mean their guns are easy for the average guy to afford. But such gunmakers are charging lower labor rates than people in other fields with far less skill or experience.

Goodies cost money.
A lot of people tell me how lucky I am to have nice things. Let me tell you this, the harder I work the luckier I get.

Roland

The day I pay 40k for a bolt action rifle is the day I get hit to hard and the head and my brain no longer functions properly.

No custom bolt rifle is worth more than 2k or 3k for function. Above that it is cosmetics or a collector rifle.

Marc_,

some days you just kill me...upper class people do not look down on those of lesser status...to paraphrase your quote. If you believe that, try knocking on a few millionaire's door and tell them you want to hang out with them at the club. Shite, drop by your attorney's or doctor's office and see about shooting the breeze for an hour or two, or meeting them for drinks after work. The BMW/Honda thing is a prime example of class envy and the separation. It's like owning a Ferrari or two...it's how you show up everybody you drive by. "Nanner-Nanner, I got a million bucks to spend on a car and you don't...".

I am not sure where you grew up, but it's ALL about how expensive your toy chest cost when three or more guys get together everywhere I have ever been.

Custom any and every thing in the world is based 90% on a gorgeous to vulgar display of wealth. Membership in SCI and Weatherby ownership are two prime examples. Actually, street rods and muscle cars are probably the best examples...along with Harleys. Although, custom rifles are trying to get to the extreme stage. There's a three stage phenomenon to every fad these days.
1. people who genuinely have an interest in _________________, you fill in the blank
2. people who see so-and-so with a toy that they think is neat and want one too, so now ownership is desirable.
but they are less talented to build their own version, so they get help with the hard parts.
3. people who reflect #2, but have lots of $$$ and pay somebody exorbitant sums to insure that they will have
all the attention at gatherings where the pursuers of this goal meet.
The end result is that the fad ends up with grossly pimpy products and everybody in #2 and #3 moves on to the next thing to try and compensate for a worthless life outside of counting their money.

Type One: "nice rifle/harley/rod, who did it?" "I did it myself..." Cool
Type Two: " " " " a local guy I know helped me build it". Cool
Type Three: "I paid $xx,xxx dollars to have ___________ build this for me. Ain't I cool?".

Type Three guys are most of the clientele of custom shops. It's just a game to them. They are also usually the pot-bellied 45-60 year old guys you see with a 25-30 year old wife with silicone boobs and a tummy tuck. There is a farmer about an hour west of Sturgis who makes a jillion bucks a year renting space the week of the rally. The forty-acre area is wall to wall with motorhomes and color-matched 20+ foot enclosed trailers with a scratch-built Harley clone (also color matched paint) being unloaded by some middle-aged fart with a trophy wife
(the silicone sister) so he can woof at the bars in town that he "rode to Sturgis". These "poseurs" are easy to spot, they don't have any bags on the bike or a sissy bar with backpack. They never figure out that we know they drove in, that's where their clean clothes are.
The Type Three guys just move from ego-building fad to fad to fad, trying to impress people with their $$$. They stay long enough to price the fad out of the reach of normal people, ruining the hobby for everybody else,
then they try and figure out the next thing that will be "In", which bandwagon to jump on next.

Rich
DRSS

Well put Roland...

"I think that good gunmakers in the U.S. (such as the ACGG guys) are way underpaid based on their level of skill and expertise. That does not mean their guns are easy for the average guy to afford. But such gunmakers are charging lower labor rates than people in other fields with far less skill or experience."

Dan, you are spot-on. It is well known that gunsmiths, rifle makers in the US, undercharge compared to their European / English counterparts. And, when you compare labor rates paid to folks that stand around and watch a robot Spot-weld an auto body....you've gotta scratch your head!

About the rifles: I have examined top grade rifles (we're talking Bolt guns now) from both sides of the Atlantic and can conclude that America's best makers are easily on par with the likes of Purdey, H&H, H&W, (when asked to be) but lack the "mystique" and Big-name recognition. George Hoenig for example can put out stuff that when he feels / felt like it that rivals anything made anywhere, anytime....for much less $$ too. Take a look at a Reimer Johansen "Safari Magnum" for example; very nice rifle, but not nearly as well fitted and finished as a Empire, Echols, Hoenig....all of which fall into the same 12-15K price range.

JW

PS: My .375 "Rooger", Purdey "Extra-finish" Double rifle has been ordered!!!

quote:

They stay long enough to price the fad out of the reach of normal people

Ain't that the truth. It is now virtually impossible for pot bellied 50 year olds with modest means to buy one of them 25 year old silicone enhanced trophies.

Idaho S-Shooter,

You forgot type Four: I paid "so-and-so" to build me what they felt wouid be the ultimate in performance and looks because my occupation permits the funds but not the time to baby-sit a gun project: Ain't I SMART!!!

I have a gunsmith here who can build a rifle with the best of them and if a guy wanted to give him 40 K he would probably take it. He would even engrave a little 'snob' sign to hang on it for display.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Idaho S-Shooter,

You forgot type Four: I paid "so-and-so" to build me what they felt wouid be the ultimate in performance and looks because my occupation permits the funds but not the time to baby-sit a gun project: Ain't I SMART!!!

Obviously you are not "type Four" or you would not have the time to be pissing around here~ ~
To pay $40,000.00 for a newly made custom bolt rifle when you could get the same thing for $15,000 or less is not what I would call "Ain't I SMART!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?

That is the absolutely the most ignorant statement I have ever seen posted on AR.

Right now, at this very moment, in Chicagoland - you can't get an interview as a technician without a minimum of a two year associate degree or certificate. Then they start working as an apprentice directly with a journeyman or master technician.

Nearly every manufacturer mandates the training the technician will receive until they reach a certain point, and are typically "graded" by the retailer as to the complexity of the work they are going to be performing, and what their future potential is.

"High School Dropouts", if hired at all are porters and lot attendants....or work in the aftermarket & independent garages.

Would you be so bold to say that your rifle working "flawlessly" when the buff is headed your way is more important than your brakes working "flawlessly" when your family is in the car? Or is a certain amount of "flaw" acceptable in those cases...if you're paying an "acceptable" labor rate?

How about asking the gunsmith for their credentials, or better yet - see them hanging on the wall when you walk in? Have you asked your gunsmith if they completed high school?

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?

That is the absolutely the most ignorant statement I have ever seen posted on AR.

Right now, at this very moment, in Chicagoland - you can't get an interview as a technician without a minimum of a two year associate degree or certificate. Then they start working as an apprentice directly with a journeyman or master technician.

Nearly every manufacturer mandates the training the technician will receive until they reach a certain point, and are typically "graded" by the retailer as to the complexity of the work they are going to be performing, and what their future potential is.

"High School Dropouts", if hired at all are porters and lot attendants....or work in the aftermarket & independent garages.

Would you be so bold to say that your rifle working "flawlessly" when the buff is headed your way is more important than your brakes working "flawlessly" when your family is in the car? Or is a certain amount of "flaw" acceptable in those cases...if you're paying an "acceptable" labor rate?

How about asking the gunsmith for their credentials, or better yet - see them hanging on the wall when you walk in? Have you asked your gunsmith if they completed high school?

Fireball,

Your statement makes no sense either.
Did Picasso complete high school? Or maybe Beethoven, a lot of high end rifle makers are artisans.

Roland

quote:

There are many talented shotgun/riflesmsith out there that can build you a from the ground up custom rifle w/ all the bells & whistles for far less than $10K. It will look & function as well as a $40K by a "known" builder.

quote]


This is pretty much the way I view it as well. I am ALL FOR a capitalistic & free society. If someone could make something like a bolt action rifle & sell it for $200K more power to them. And how someone with money spends it is purely their business. I was just asking if that kind of money into a bolt action purchsed something other than exclusivity. It appears not.

Crazy waste of money.

Idaho Sharpshooter-

Your paraphrase of my words was very inaccurate. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was unintetional. Your post drove home the point I made - as a whole people in lower socio-economic classes are very cost and class concious when compared to people with considereably more financial means. The lower the social ladder rung occupied, the more preoccupied with money. Well , actually not. The absolute worst "show offs" I have experienced are people who were upper middle class. Excepting this, the lower the rung, the more hung up on money, price, comparison to the neighbors, etc. Read the posts on this thread and you will two very different types of answers to the original question.

I sincerely hope you can get over your class envy and lose some bitterness. Even if you have no desire to change your circumstances, i believe you would find more senerenty and less need to demean others and their choices.

And I will ask again, will you please tell me who you are? Every so often you confront me and yet you still refuse to say who you are and where you live. I don't understand the need of many to hide behind screen names, but I would hope that if some one continues to attack me in public they would have th ecourtesy to at least tell me who they are.

BACK TO IRON BUCK'S QUESTION THAT STARTED HTIS THREAD:

Iron buck asked a question about people with signific intrests in getting the best possible bolt action rifles made today. He got a (very) few replies that actually tried to help him understand. Most of the posts on this thread are actually quite rude in their treatment of those who choose to pay significant money for a bolt action rifle.

/

quote:

Originally posted by Roland1:
Fireball,

Your statement makes no sense either.
Did Picasso complete high school? Or maybe Beethoven, a lot of high end rifle makers are artisans.

Roland

Could the works of Picasso or Beethoven in any way potentially endanger the lives of those who commissioned them?

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?

That is the absolutely the most ignorant statement I have ever seen posted on AR.

Right now, at this very moment, in Chicagoland - you can't get an interview as a technician without a minimum of a two year associate degree or certificate. Then they start working as an apprentice directly with a journeyman or master technician.

Nearly every manufacturer mandates the training the technician will receive until they reach a certain point, and are typically "graded" by the retailer as to the complexity of the work they are going to be performing, and what their future potential is.

"High School Dropouts", if hired at all are porters and lot attendants....or work in the aftermarket & independent garages.

Would you be so bold to say that your rifle working "flawlessly" when the buff is headed your way is more important than your brakes working "flawlessly" when your family is in the car? Or is a certain amount of "flaw" acceptable in those cases...if you're paying an "acceptable" labor rate?

How about asking the gunsmith for their credentials, or better yet - see them hanging on the wall when you walk in? Have you asked your gunsmith if they completed high school?

I'd say after having to take my new truck back to the dealership 3 times, over a 3+ week period, and 9 days in the shop to fix a leaking coolant hose, that Phil was absolutely on the mark. I don't know what the educational background is of folks building and servicing vehicles, but no matter what their diploma says, they're a pretty sorry bunch.

I'd say American car makers and their dealerships are way overpaid for the quality of their work.

As to the subject at hand, I can care less what folks can afford that I can't, and that it somehow doesn't make sense.

If I could afford a $10, 20 or 40 thousand dollar rifle, and found one that I fealt was worth that money, I'd pay it.

It all comes down to spending your money as you see fit. These threads come and go, and they always seem to be by folks that are jelous of those that have the means to buy things they can't. The guy that can't afford those things makes himself feel better by saying how they just can't justify spending X amount of dollars on Y product.

I'd love to have a Ferrari, and it wouldn't to drive to show off. It would be to find roads with no-one else on them, so I could enjoy the car

jeff,

no offense man, but...
if you ain't got the time to babysit a project:
A. you ain't got the time to really put it to the use it was built for.
B. you're useless as tits on a boar hog if it ever
got to serious things.

Rich
DRSS

One other thing...

there aren't any high school dropouts working on new cars these days. They acquire nearly the equivalent of an associates degree in electronics, and I can guarantee you they spend more time in training on an annual basis than most doctors.

Rich
DRSS

Paul,

can you PM me when somebody posts a thread about common sense entering into this thread? There ain't much to date.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

quote:

Originally posted by Roland1:
Fireball,

Your statement makes no sense either.
Did Picasso complete high school? Or maybe Beethoven, a lot of high end rifle makers are artisans.

Roland

Could the works of Picasso or Beethoven in any way potentially endanger the lives of those who commissioned them?

Probably, if they would find out that their art is compared to car brake replacement labor.

Roland

Maybe people on the lower $$$ rung of the ladder are more caught up with the issue of money because they don't have alot of extra money. Just because some one in in a lower social economic class, does not mean they can't appreciate nice things, cars,guns or whatever. The money they spend on a nice item, probably means alot of sacrifice in some other area so they can afford the better item. Why do wealthy people automatically assume that poor people only want something nice becaue their rich neighbor has it. What a pompous ass attitude!!. People that are not rich still appreciate and like to own certain things. They just can't cash in an extra bond here or there. They may actually have to do without something else to get their favorite car or gun or whatever. I say more power to them. It is not always a "keep up with the Jones attitude" it just takes longer to save up and get a nice item, so obviously we may not be the first to own the item. sorry for ranting, this post has just hit a raw nerve. I would eat sack lunches for a year or two, if it meant getting nice gun with the money. That is more important than spending 10 or 12 bucks everyday for lunch with the guys. Lets cut the working stiffs, I am in this group too, a break.

Everything material in this world has a perceived value.

Custom rifles I appreciate very much.
But I have also received much satisfaction by ordering a simple unfinished glass blank then bedding&painting it myself with a factory barreled action and getting a load to consistently group 1/2".
Do I really need that Mcmillan or 1/2"? mostly not. But I did not regret doing it.
For the Guy who may have spare millions and wants a $40K m98/m70 In traditinal cartridge or wildcat or whatever, thats his business.
Also,Dont necessarily assume that every guy with a custom98 has millions. He may have just made sacrifice to get what he enjoys(maybe he stopped smoking drinking and gambling, or stopped the purchase of a new pickup, or opted for a 2 bedroom instead of 3 bedroom house)
I dont know, thats his business.... On the other hand,
There are wealthy folk I personally know that are ardent hunters and very satisfied hunting with a FactoryM70stainlessClassic. Once gain,thats their business.
Anyone (be they financially rich or poor themselves)who judges condemns or assumes solely by appearance ,is a fool.

excellent post woodjack.

It will never cease to amaze me how people come to a conversation with such a strong set of prejudices that everything heard or read will be colored by the preconcieved ideas and no attempt will even be made to try to understand why some one else has a different viewpoint. Some people here seem to be having a difficult time tolerating a viewpoint that conflicts with their prejudices. It is a shame to see some one limit their potential like that, but such is life.