You can buy canvas for a couple dollers a yard but not the one the mona lisa is painted on

AKshooter, that is a good one and how true. I like that.

"no offense man, but...
if you ain't got the time to babysit a project:
A. you ain't got the time to really put it to the use it was built for.
B. you're useless as tits on a boar hog if it ever
got to serious things."

Rich,

Did you really mean to post this???

If so, well, let's just say...Ignorance is bliss.

And, I won't shame the other sound-minded folk that come here to chat and learn by returnung the insult.

Sleep well brother,

JW

I have to agree to some extent with the acusation of snobb priceing of custom bolt rifles. However, I find more envy in these posts on this thread, than I believe I've seen anywhere in the last 20 yrs on the net.

The fact is there are those who can do work that is worth the prices they command, not that I could afford those prices. It is quite evident that most here did not watch the H&H film posted here, or if they did, they didn't pay much attention. The fact is, a top notch machinest in this country will draw $50, pr hour, plus $80 pr hour for the machine, and tool wear. This guy may be the best around, but still doesn't have the skill to build a top of the line rifle, and when you consider an H&H double rifle takes two years of hand work, after the CNC has finished the hog work, by people that are members of a hand full of artizens in the world capable of the hand work needed to build the rifle, it is amazeing to me, why the cost is not higher. That is a top of the line double rifle by a company like H&H! Still, I must admit, the price is boosted some by the NAME. When looking down the barrels at a Cape Buffalo, closeing fast on your butt, all I want is a double that goes bang, and puts the bullets where I point them, EVERY TIME, and like the Cape Buffalo, I don't care who's name is on that double, or, in fact,what it cost!

Now! where I agree with the most here is when a MAUSER 98 barreled action is delivered to the H&H factory, in the white, and H&H tunes, the action, finishes the steel, and builds a very well fitted stock, and engraves the H&H name on it, it suddenly becomes a $40K H&H rifle! Certainly the level of fit and finish on this rifle is much finer than a Mauser fit and finished at the Mauser werk, but 15 times as much????????. I DON'T THINK SO!

Still, I don't think just because a person can afford to have what he considers the best, automaticlly makes him a person who looks down on those who can't! IMO, anyone who would think that, and for sure anyone who would say that is, IMO, guilty of an invious soul. This was indicated by a statement, someplace here,to the effect that, that a person who rides a HARLEY, or owns a Weatherby, did so as a sign of afluence! Rideing A Harley, is a sign of ignorance, whan there are far better bikes to choose from, at the same price, or less, and weatherbys are sold in Wal-Mart, for Christ sake. "Class" is something you have or don't have, and your toys, and other property, is no indication of class. I know folks who didn't pass the fourth grade,and live on a tiny 200 acre family farm, who have more class than most of the rich people I've ever known.

My advice to those who just hunt deer, do it with the cheapest thing sold at K-Mart, but if you are going up against dangerous game, that is tuff, and hard to stop, buy the best you can afford, and learn if it has any bad habits before you go into the weeds. If it does have some flukes, get someone, who knows how, to smooth them out before you get on the plane to Africa, or Alaska.

Like anything else some things are priced fairly, and some are over priced, but there is something of quality for every budgit, if the buyer is savvy enough to know what he is looking at. Price doesn't always give you what you pay for!

That should this up considerably!

If a persons joy is hunting the common hog with a fine custom.300H&HDropboxTakedownMagnumMauser Nickel brass and custom loaded ammo,
and another persons joy is doing a 40k hunt with a simpler factory Ti700-260rem thats shoots 1"groups with Federal factory,

I see no problem with either.

Why ? cause I dont really know the reasoning behind peoples minds. maybe the guy prefers the joy of hunting hogs with a fine custom M98, cause he cannot afford to repeatedly go on safari,but can more often enjoy hunting hogs with a rifle he likes.
Other folk maybe go on a once only Safari of a lifetime and are not overly fussed on the rifle it self,cause they value other things more.


Hell, If I appreciate something, like a well made Hagn or M98 Satterlee receiver, I see no problem with just having it sit on my desk, that I can admire or play with it when I like.
I also see no great need or desire to have a H&H or Purdey doubleRifle over the mighty fine and much less expensive Italian Famars, not that I even really want a SXS, but I still very much appreciate them.
What ever one chooses to value,is the path they should take, but that can change over time and circumstances.
When I spoke with Hartmann& Weiss,they said they have been known to have a couple of their exquiste magnum mauser receivers floating around in the office draw with the paper clips. And if not, They would get to building one for me on the next run.
What a wonderful relaxed attitude, compared to those who obsess over such items.

If you have to ask the price. . . .

I saw once a engaving job on a shotgun from Italy. The engraving alone took the engraver 18 months. Who here would work for a year and a half 8 hours a day if it were for only &40,000.00 Those kind of engaving jobs arnt normally put on bolt actions but what if. The Germans turn out some pritty highly embelished bolt actions.

Well there seems to be a lot of argument but not many names of great gun makers. Heres a couple that I know of. Steve Heilmann of Northern California just sold a bolt gun in the 80K range. Gil Van Horn from Southern Cal is also one of the best bolt rifle builders in the world. Who else is building great super high end bolt guns??

SWD-
Did you get to see the .500 that Steve recently sold for the amount you mention? I did not handle it, but gave it a very close inspection and got some pics of it. Excellent work all the way around and definitely setting a higher bar for we mere mortals who make chips in metal and wood. Given the level of quality in the rifle and the embelishment on that piece, i thought it a very fair price.

Marc, I didnt get a chance to look it over much. But I have seen plenty and handled a bit of his work. It's hard to keep the drool of the guns. I know a few guild members and even they put him in a class above everyone else. Truly one of the best in the world.

quote:

.............what the HELL can someone do to a bolt action rifle to make it worth spending 30-40K+ on to begin with?

In my opinion?

You advertise it to rich suckers!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
If you have to ask the price. . . .

I don't know about you, but before I buy something, I want to know how much it's going to cost.

That's for sure and just seems like common sense to me,

JW

While manufactures can set a price for their goods, the open market sets the actual price.

If there were not a market for these guns it would not matter if gun maker XYZ puts a 40K price tag on his creation, no one would buy it.

Many a manufacturer has set a price for his goods or services only to see the market not agree. In which case the manufacture either has to adjust his price to market conditions or go out of business.

Here are a few pics of the Heilmann rifle in question. It was engraved by Dennis Reece. Please excuse the crappy pics-the lighting was terrible and this was the best that could be done under the circumstances. Additionally, like all 3 dimensional works of art, a picture will just not do it justice.

Very nice rifle Marc but IMHO, not $80,000 nice.....but what do I know, I like Winchesters.

To evaluate an example of a top end rifle build.


6k........HartmannWeiss magnum mauser receiver.
5k.........top end stock job
3k.........top end walnut blank
2k.........full custom (one of) bottom metal unit.
4k.........top end integral featured barrel.
1.5k.........premium rust blue&color case.
2k...........custom made screws,crossbolts, grip cap, combe and grip strap.

.... anything I missed?


TOTAL so far 23.5k,
and I have been generous in my figures, you could safely take 10% away from that total, and do it for 21k. Use an Excellent Satterlee Receiver and it becomes 19k.

It also appears Heilmann has used a Military receiver.Even with its mods and rehardening it dont come to anything like the 6k H&W price, so you can further notably reduce that 21k total build price. Unless I am mistaken and he has ordered a new receiver with a thumbcut.

I cannot tell from the snaps, Is there 55k+ worth of engraving on that Heilmann rifle?
I suppose its depends what name is responsible for the engraving.
IT does not have to be engraving for some. If Lady Diana had touched that rifle a week before her death, some people in their minds would add another 100k to its value...

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Here are a few pics of the Heilmann rifle in question. It was engraved by Dennis Reece. Please excuse the crappy pics-the lighting was terrible and this was the best that could be done under the circumstances. Additionally, like all 3 dimensional works of art, a picture will just not do it justice.

JMHO, I don't care for it that much. To me the stock looks clubby and the forend tip isn't that appealing. The color case hardening gives a nice contrast to the eye but with that the gold inlays and crossbolt treatment seems gaudy.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Here are a few pics of the Heilmann rifle in question. It was engraved by Dennis Reece. Please excuse the crappy pics-the lighting was terrible and this was the best that could be done under the circumstances. Additionally, like all 3 dimensional works of art, a picture will just not do it justice.

Actually, I like it. The sight set up is marvelous. Looks like one could "find" the sights fast.

I think it is a beautiful rifle, but I would not pay 80,000 for it.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
I think it is a beautiful rifle, but I would not pay 80,000 for it.

I forgot that part. IF, I had 80k, I hope I'd use the money for hunting.
However not all rich people are into Bentley's. So, I suppose they need something show they made it in life.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Additionally, like all 3 dimensional works of art, a picture will just not do it justice.

I guess not. Nice rifle, but it's on the other side of the world from $80k.
-------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Interesting debate but I find some serious flaws in some of the thinking.

Idaho Sharpshooter basically says that anyone who can't make a particular item is a poser because someone made it for them. Can I not enjoy music I can't make? Can I not appreciate cars I can't build? Can I not cherish furniture I can not make? The entire point of money is to provide a medium to take the value of the work YOU do in exchange for the work SOMEONE ELSE does.

Also with the BMW/Accord comparison also falls flat with me. We all could buy and wear $5 quartz watches that keep perfect time. We pay extra for style, mechanical appreciation, comfort, beauty, etc. It is the same thing with rifles. I like the looks and feel of walnut over plastic so it is worth more to me.

We also need to remember that some of people have $500,000 wine collections, $5,000,000 yachts and $10,000,000 works of art. Personally I'd rather have $40,000 rifles then any of this stuff, wouldn't you?

Lastly I think we are confusing price with cost of ownership. Take two guys, one buys $40,000 worth of Savage rifles and one guy buys a clean used H&H double rifle. Both guys shoot said rifles their whole life and sell their rifles. The guy with the H&H gets WAY WAY more money out of his gun then the total value of all the Savages. The cost of ownership for the H&H was far less then buying common cheap guns.

Buy rare and buy quality and many times you MAKE money when it is time to sell, buy garbage and it gets thrown away.

This is a funny thread. I'm on the side that takes pride in taking a production rifle and making it better than it could be. I'm a shadetree tinkerer. I can take a Rem 700 BDL and install pillars, glass bed the action, lighten the trigger, and free float the barrel. I've learned that's about what it takes to take a 2MOA off the shelf rifle to a semi customized sub-MOA with some handloads I myself created for the gun.

I understand art and I appreciate it. I'll pay for art when it comes to paintings on my wall or sculptures in my office. As for guns, I just want something that works as well as I can make them work. Emphasis on I. Great pride in doing it myself.

I would rather carry a $800 production rifle that I made better with my own hands than a $10k rifle made by someone else. But realize that this comes from one of the uninitiated that has never owned a "custom" gun. I have no sense of what it is like to carry such a showpiece. At the end of the day, I'll still ask whether it killed better than one I improved.

WOODJACK,

You left out"

Gold-line work = 100.00 inch (this rifle has a bunch of it ....AND it looks great!)
Engraving = ??? depends on who does it, so, let's just see how it might go...

...Ken Hunt; I'll bet 25k for starters
...Winston Churchill 20k for starters
...Phillippe Griffinee 20k for starters
Stephen Kelly most likely the same...

Thems the numbers, so your 23k is now over 40 easily before we get into too many details. 80K??

But if that was the price...GREAT!!!

My top end bolt guns just got more valuable!

Why must some folks on this forum "chide" ANYBODY for paying whatever they paid for a rifle is Waaay beyond me...To some 80K is peanuts...It's all relative in the end.


Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If your local Chevy or Ford dealer charges $80 to $90 per hour -for some high school drop out to work on your brakes - then how much should a smith with the expertise and talent of Mr. Echols or Mr. Miller charge for building as flawless a rifle as they can?

That is the absolutely the most ignorant statement I have ever seen posted on AR.

Right now, at this very moment, in Chicagoland - you can't get an interview as a technician without a minimum of a two year associate degree or certificate. Then they start working as an apprentice directly with a journeyman or master technician.

Nearly every manufacturer mandates the training the technician will receive until they reach a certain point, and are typically "graded" by the retailer as to the complexity of the work they are going to be performing, and what their future potential is.

"High School Dropouts", if hired at all are porters and lot attendants....or work in the aftermarket & independent garages.

Would you be so bold to say that your rifle working "flawlessly" when the buff is headed your way is more important than your brakes working "flawlessly" when your family is in the car? Or is a certain amount of "flaw" acceptable in those cases...if you're paying an "acceptable" labor rate?

How about asking the gunsmith for their credentials, or better yet - see them hanging on the wall when you walk in? Have you asked your gunsmith if they completed high school?

Fireball, My anology my not have been perfect and if you tell me that all the auto mechanics in your area have more training than brain surgeons then I'll believe you but they certainly don't anywhere I have ever lived.
You are correct that brakes are a safety issue and need to be done correctly, maybe I should have said mufflers, but do you mean to tell me that you think they require the same expertise to install as making a bolt action feed and eject smoothly with 100% reliability?


My point was that the best custom gunsmiths are highly talented artisans and, like all working men, deserve fair compensation for their skill, knowledge and efforts. the fact that the best of them are booked three years or more in advance tells me that a lot of folks (including many working professionals) who think their rifles are worth the asking price.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Interesting debate but I find some serious flaws in some of the thinking.

Idaho Sharpshooter basically says that anyone who can't make a particular item is a poser because someone made it for them. Can I not enjoy music I can't make? Can I not appreciate cars I can't build? Can I not cherish furniture I can not make? The entire point of money is to provide a medium to take the value of the work YOU do in exchange for the work SOMEONE ELSE does.

Also with the BMW/Accord comparison also falls flat with me. We all could buy and wear $5 quartz watches that keep perfect time. We pay extra for style, mechanical appreciation, comfort, beauty, etc. It is the same thing with rifles. I like the looks and feel of walnut over plastic so it is worth more to me.

We also need to remember that some of people have $500,000 wine collections, $5,000,000 yachts and $10,000,000 works of art. Personally I'd rather have $40,000 rifles then any of this stuff, wouldn't you?

Lastly I think we are confusing price with cost of ownership. Take two guys, one buys $40,000 worth of Savage rifles and one guy buys a clean used H&H double rifle. Both guys shoot said rifles their whole life and sell their rifles. The guy with the H&H gets WAY WAY more money out of his gun then the total value of all the Savages. The cost of ownership for the H&H was far less then buying common cheap guns.

Buy rare and buy quality and many times you MAKE money when it is time to sell, buy garbage and it gets thrown away.

I don't know. I sure would not mind at all to have a $5,000,000 yacht. although I would settle for a 150k houseboat.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
WOODJACK,

You left out"

Gold-line work = 100.00 inch (this rifle has a bunch of it ....AND it looks great!)
Engraving = ??? depends on who does it, so, let's just see how it might go...

...Ken Hunt; I'll bet 25k for starters
...Winston Churchill 20k for starters
...Phillippe Griffinee 20k for starters
Stephen Kelly most likely the same...

Thems the numbers, so your 23k is now over 40 easily before we get into too many details. 80K??

But if that was the price...GREAT!!!

My top end bolt guns just got more valuable!

Why must some folks on this forum "chide" ANYBODY for paying whatever they paid for a rifle is Waaay beyond me...To some 80K is peanuts...It's all relative in the end.


Jeff

As I stated earlier, everything has a perceived value. If a person is happy to spend 80k on a sub 40k rifle, cause they are impatient to wait 5yrs to have it built&engraved, then yes, thats their choice,and if their happy with that decision ,then goodo!

About making your bolt rifles increase in value I dont know for sure.
There was a custom takedown 375H&H mauser made for Bodington,put up for sale at around 31k a while ago. Last I looked at it, it was down to around 20k, without any takers.

Are left-handed people allowed to have that much disposable income?

Since I am a practical type of guy I see no reason in me spending my hard earned dollars aon a lot of glitter. I do like good wood, good inletting, metal work and funtional design. The only way a rifle would be worth $40 K to me is if it had $30 K worth of diamonds inletted into the stock.

465H&H

I do not know the details of this rifle, but the stock blank does not look top notch, and perhaps the maker is not considered one of the top dogs. ??

Also, lefties make up less than 10% of the population so the market for such a rifle is relatively small.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

There was a custom takedown 375H&H mauser made for Bodington,put up for sale at around 31k a while ago. Last I looked at it, it was down to around 20k, without any takers.

$80K...I guess its okay for such a rifle..
either you have the money or you don`t...very simple..really..

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
Reading another thread that has been rolling along talking about "name" custom rifle makers and whether they will or will not build something has made me think..............what the HELL can someone do to a bolt action rifle to make it worth spending 30-40K+ on to begin with? Seems like a massive waste of money to me...even if you had it to spend to begin with. Is it REALLY going to be that much better than a stock rifle that has been gone over to function properly & shoot accurately costing 4-5times LESS MONEY??? So everyone that is "in the know" on bolt action rifles that cost as much as a nice car, please tell me why they are even remotely worth that much money to begin with. And not just because "some can afford it while most can't" Yes....there is an ass for every seat I want to know what makes them WORTH what they cost. Are they really that much better?

Gentlemen, i think we've gotten off track here. Some here are including thousands of dollars for decoration in the equation. I think if you will re-read the origenal post above you will see what is being asked is, how can one charge thousands of dollars to make a bolt rifle that is absolutely reliable in function.

This is my question as well. A gunsmith who can make a bolt rifle as reliable as is posible, fit the shooter, and be as accurate as anyone liveing, can do that for considerably less than even $6K, and still make a good profit.

You can put $20K worth of decoration on a piece of water pipe, but that doesn't make it flow water any better, it just gives you a fancy water pipe. The same goes for a bolt rifle. All the engraveing, and gold inlays, though pleasurable they are, do not make the rifle any more reliable, and in that context are wasted money in regard to the origenal question asked here.

Since the custom bolt rifle is made on an action that is already made by someone else, and the barrels are simply ordered from a barrel maker, and the pieces fitted together, and tweeked so the ammo flows from magazine to chamber perfectly, and the empties ejected without a hang-up, and while most in the $5k-$10K are in synthetic stocks, with a just good piece of wood, properly shaped and fitted, will coast an addtional $2K-$5K, and when the rifle is complete, the only thing you have really bought, that is worth spit, is the fact that the rifle will shoot staight enough to hit an animal reasonably well, and not jam when you go to cranking the bolt. That can be done with a old Mauser, mod 70 action, with a $100 trigger, and a $300 barrel blank, $200 set of sights, and $100 scope mounts, and a $200 tupper ware stock.

A $40K double rifle, however, starts out with a block of steel, and every piece is made from start to finish by a combination of hog work being done by a CNC, and the rest by hand. This too, can be done to work just as reliable for $10K. Decoration is fine for those who are willing to pay for it, but it has absolutely nothing to do with building a reliable rifle, so that cost can be discounted right off the top, what is left after that discount, is what counts. I believe that is what Iron Buck was asking!

Addtionally, the comment about high school drop outs, is a little on the snobb side, IMO. I doubt of the best custom gun smiths in the world, I'd bet 50% never completed high school, and of the other 50% My guess would be 5% out of that 50%, may have one year of collage,and then, in the form of gun smith trade school , not academic studies.

Formal education is valueless to an artist, and even trade school only gives them the basics, and the art comes from the artist, not a school.

I guess now I'll probably get the Don Imus treatment for my non-politically correct "high school drop-out" comment - which was not meant to disparage anyone as human worth and talent are not measured by years of education. But that doesn't make the analogy any less apt.

Argue all you want about wether it is woth $80k or not. Apparently it was because it's SOLD. Actualy it sold for a bit more than $80k, I just forgot the exact number.
What we all forget is that for people who buy such things $80k is nothing. They already have $200K Holland and Purdy doubles, Rolls, Ferraris, 12000sqft homes, whats 80k!

And a $500 Ruger is just as far out of reach for the majority of the world's population.

458Win,

You won't get any "Imus'd" by me!

But might ought to be careful about your reasoning behind that remark....a local guy here just sold his little biz for in excess of 150Mil....Highschool Drop-out is he!

No worries sir, just prank'n with you!

JW

quote:

About making your bolt rifles increase in value I dont know for sure.
There was a custom takedown 375H&H mauser made for Bodington,put up for sale at around 31k a while ago. Last I looked at it, it was down to around 20k, without any takers.

WOODJACK,

Good post. What makes a Bolt gun's value increase is not necessairly its provenance, but who made it and more importantly (in this price range anyway) who did the engraving, or its historical significance. i.e original Rigby .416, 500 Jeffrey....safe bet those will "always" be on the increase. Same goes for rifles that were engraved by the likes of Hunt, Churchill, Griffinee.

Check out the books by Christopher Austyn, there are some literally unbelievable works pictured, namely a Hunt engraved bolt gun!

I'd pay 100K for it in one second and have extra cash when I sold it a year later...

I appreciate your intelligent dialog BTW,

JW

PS - Some day, long into the future (I hope) guns owned and used by CB will be a good buy, especially if he is pictured using them on a hunt (s)!

As MacD37 pointed out, the thread had gotten off base with what I had originally asked...........funny..........that never happens here But my original question did have to do with making a dead nuts reliable BOLT ACTION rifle. Maybe some nice wood , but no engraving or frills off that nature. How much would that be? On the top end? Seems as if 20K looked to be tops & somewhere around 7-10K for a VERY well done working type rifle.

But could it not be said, that there are some "non name" smiths, some who are also members of the custom gun makers guild, who could do the same to a customers supplied action for 3-4K? I think that it would be possible to get equal quality & reliablility without having to spend the added premium of using a celebrity gun smith.

Doubles & fine shotguns were not the object of my initial question, those items require SO MUCH hand work that they could blow even 40K away....some by a large margin!