there certainly are some great un-sung smiths who can build rifles every bit as good as the big name smiths for a fraction of what they charge. It is all a matter of overhead, how long they have been at it, how much they value their time, why they are in the field, if they have other income, etc,etc.
Also, as some have pointed out here, some of the known greats are basically artists in metal and wood and spend hours refining details that might -or might not- matter to most of us. but they do have talent and what they charge for their work is up to them. Believe me, none of them are getting rich but - for the exception of dealing with a few jerks - they enjoy what they do. and obviously so do most of us here.

Last I heard Mark Penrod was getting $7000+ for his rifles and you have to supply the action. I also believe you should be able to spend less than $4000 for a well built, fully functional rifle that will last a lifetime. If you all want to spend an extra $35,000 for engraving and such then knock yourselves out........but i bet it won't shoot any straighter than a NULA or an Echol's.

Straight shooting is only one aspect of a quality rifle, and that is regardless of price. Other qualities might be functional like balance and weight distribution. Some mechanically functional like 100% feeding, 100% extraction and ejection, QR mounts that are both quick and return to zero, proper express sights,... Some may be artistic, great wood and finish, great metal finish, rust blue...

I think today about $16k gets as nice a rifle as I can appreciate, wood, quality, fit, finish, accuracy, accoutements...No engraving yet, except my name.

JPK

You can build a fine custom bolt rifle for less than the 20k I figured for sure. But Like a fine Mercedes car,they still can come off a production line type process. If you wanted Mercedes to build you a particular car with more specific fender geometry/engine implant,or structural integrity they might do you one for 5 million instead of 1/4 million and still may want a miniumum order of 10. In between that you have the AMG wing that does upgrade Merc mods.
Any how the point Im getting at is that some folk want more than a done over militaryM98 with BlackburnBottom and talley rings.
There are those that want/or need modern metalurgy in the receiver and other parts.
For example, I have a smith that will build one off custom bottom metal(among other parts) in Rockwell tested high grade Bohler 238 chromemolly mould makers steel that has been ultrasound tested for internal faults,so no funny surprises come through in the machining process.
He also takes more time to create more refined and appropriate geometry on the unit, like draught angles,very specific internal geommetry for the particular chambering you chose,trigger guard curves and more precise(flawless) fit of release lever,and more refinement of the general geometry you find on a BlackBurn unit.
Thats true individual work and it costs Time and Money!
Whether some think it is worth paying 2k for bottom metal instead of $400, thats up to them!
Fact is He enjoys taking the time to do that kind of individual work,and some folk are happy to pay and have that level of refinement. However he does not force you into his way of thinking,He is still also happy to use a Blackburn unit if you so wish.

Do I still like rifles with Blackburn units?.. for sure, they come up fine and make a lot of folk happy.
Do I apprecaite the work that smith does with his custom units? yes I do,cause they make a smaller group of owners happy and I am sure a number of appreciators and admirers happy also.
Heres a rig he built with an Echols bottom unit:

I did not ask Steve, but I am quite sure that his cut of the $82,500 he got for the rifle was at least $40k. So that is the "maker" cost and has nothing to do with engraving.

If you look at what he really makes, I bet almost everyone, if not everyone, who posted on this thread actually makes more then him. I had a company with employees and know how little people think they cost a company vs. what they really cost. And I had managed people all over fo ryears and thought I had a good handle on what an employee really cost, but I did not.

When you are a maker on your own, you are resposnsible for everything, so what you actually "make" in employee terms is very, very little. The same people who cry makers are charging too much charge their company more per year, and it is usually for work that many, many, many people can do. Steve Heilmann is approaching being in a league by himself when it comes to building guns.

I once read where a custom maker (can't think of who right now) would give a prospect a quote for a job, and if they ever said it seemed high, he would offer to do the work for what they make at their job. No one ever took him up on it. I imagine others here have read that-can anyone remember who it was?

So Iron Buck, you have gotten some real answers to your original question. If you go back and read them with an open mind, you will see they do not mention engraving at all-strctly the rifles. You may not agree with the logic personally, and that is 100% OK. But that does not change the fact that there is a group of gun buyers who find value in an unadorned bolt action sold for $40,000+.

I spent well over 40k on drinking back in the day and that was stupid. looking back I wish I had a nice rifle to fondle..

I wont even mention what my first wife cost me and people were telling how that was going to work out before I started. .

2 each his or her own..

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
..............what the HELL can someone do to a bolt action rifle to make it worth spending 30-40K+ on to begin with? Seems like a massive waste of money to me...even if you had it to spend to begin with. Is it REALLY going to be that much better than a stock rifle that has been gone over to function properly & shoot accurately costing 4-5times LESS MONEY??? better?

1. It is a question of uniqueness. Plain and simple. (yes the mechanics/parts/workings are indeed better/slicker, but you're not paying only for those)

2. Because some people want them.

3. Because some people can afford them.

If you can afford one, buy one. If you can't, well you can't. If someone else has one, more power to them. Who cares?

But the whole class thing is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes I show up for work in my F350 diesel crew cab long bed, some days in my Ferrari and some days in my Aston Martin........does that mean I'm a snob only part of the time.......and my wife is only a snooty bitch when she drives her Mercedes and not her SUV..........give me a fckn break!

P.S. I do hit 150mph from time to time, come to think of it pretty much every time I take them out.........the truck maxes out at 97mph....POS

Woodjack,

I wasn't disagreeing only mentioning where my interest falls off and/or my ability to notice or apreciate the difference is lost.

Except maybe when it comes to integral barrels with 1/4 rib and stud and front sight. I've been afraid to ask what that might add.

JPK

Jpk,
I was not disputing what you posted or your value system, just adding things I wanted to say.

As I sit here at my computer I have my safe door open and I see six bolt action rifles built by guild members. None of them cost over $5000.00 in the beggening. That was over 20 years ago I think in todays world you could add for inflation maybe at most double and I think this would repersent what Iron buck is talking about.

When you say $40,000.00 you are talking about artwork and embelishments. I can't think of a single Bolt action rifle I have ever seen with a price tag over $10,000.00 or so that wasn't heavily embelished. At that point the rifle is the format for the art work. It is the canvas.

Of the six rifles mentioned four have since been engraved by guild members knowing the hours envolved to build these rifles it would be a bargan to get them built today for $15,000.00

If someone today wants to have a rifle built to that quality and yet add more custom feachers like a magnum mauser built by the maker lets make it a take down Lets put a hand made ivory fold back night sight on the front and a cocking piece on the back ect ect. You get the point $40,000.00 will happen.

.458
youve taken a lot of heat over your comment. The gunmakers we're talking about here are the best of the best If these guys want to compare them to mechanics then they should be talking about the guy's who build cars for nascar.

The gun builders would actully love that then maybe they could demand equal pay.

This is a wonderful rifle and I woudl be honored to own it. Further, if my financial situation permitted, I would gladly pay 80K for it. It probably represents 6 to 9 man-months of labor. Take your car to the car dealer and have him work on it for 6 months and see what the bill is.

I would rather spend 80K on this rifle than on:

a. An H1
b. A Mercedes 500 SEL
c. A boat/yacht
d. A racehorse
e. A motor home
f. A safe full of 200 average guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Iron Buck:
But my original question did have to do with making a dead nuts reliable BOLT ACTION rifle. Maybe some nice wood , but no engraving or frills off that nature. How much would that be? On the top end? Seems as if 20K looked to be tops & somewhere around 7-10K for a VERY well done working type rifle.

Heres the way I see it:

3K for s Satterlee action
2-3K for an exhibition blank
2K for an all integral Q-Rib barrel from Ralf Martini
4K for stock work by a high end stocker
3K for metal work and finishing
Total 15K

I think that is pretty accurate.

Marc,

Do you have any close up pictures of the sights and the extended top strap on the Heilmann rifle??

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Here are a few pics of the Heilmann rifle in question. It was engraved by Dennis Reece. Please excuse the crappy pics-the lighting was terrible and this was the best that could be done under the circumstances. Additionally, like all 3 dimensional works of art, a picture will just not do it justice.

Actually, I like it. The sight set up is marvelous. Looks like one could "find" the sights fast.

Is that a 404 Dakota?

That is 500grains' model for a .375 Ruger rifle, I presume. Look at the empty .375 Ruger cartridge case standing there beside it, right where Dan placed it.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
This is a wonderful rifle and I woudl be honored to own it.

it is a .500 Jeffrey.

Unfortunately I do not have any close up pics. The lighting was terrible in there so I set up the tripod and basically took some snap shots.

Thanks, honestly I assumed the 500 Jeffery would look a bit bigger. It must be a larger rifle than first thought.

quote:

a. An H1
b. A Mercedes 500 SEL
c. A boat/yacht
d. A racehorse
e. A motor home
f. A safe full of 200 average guns.

Dan, you need to stand in the Winners Circle at a major race track

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
it is a .500 Jeffrey.

Unfortunately I do not have any close up pics. The lighting was terrible in there so I set up the tripod and basically took some snap shots.

Do you (or anyone) remember if the top strap was blued or color cased? Did the rear sight have a platinum center line or a platinum triangle with the highest point just below the lowest point of the shallow v? Any other details you remember about either one?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
This is a wonderful rifle and I woudl be honored to own it. Further, if my financial situation permitted, I would gladly pay 80K for it. It probably represents 6 to 9 man-months of labor. Take your car to the car dealer and have him work on it for 6 months and see what the bill is.

I would rather spend 80K on this rifle than on:

a. An H1
b. A Mercedes 500 SEL
c. A boat/yacht
d. A racehorse
e. A motor home
f. A safe full of 200 average guns.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Are left-handed people allowed to have that much disposable income?

Yes, but they're smart enough not to spend that kind of money on a bolt gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Jpk,
I was not disputing what you posted or your value system, just adding things I wanted to say.

Woodjack,

Its not even that, I just don't think I know enough about really excellent bolt rifles to see or appreciate anything beyond about a $16k rifle. I have seen and handled a couple in that range and a few beyond. I wasn't up to the task of recognizing any difference. My next rifle will be by Duanne Weibe I believe. Last I priced a rifle by Duanne, it was in this range.

Bulldog,

You missed, imo:
takedown
really quick and repeateable QD mounts

JPK

This is true, but we lefties would spend a wad on a good 4 bore double

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
That is 500grains' model for a .375 Ruger rifle, I presume. Look at the empty .375 Ruger cartridge case standing there beside it, right where Dan placed it.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
This is a wonderful rifle and I woudl be honored to own it.

That 375 Ruger custom happened pretty damn smartish, Dan

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Jpk,
I was not disputing what you posted or your value system, just adding things I wanted to say.

Woodjack,

Its not even that, I just don't think I know enough about really excellent bolt rifles to see or appreciate anything beyond about a $16k rifle. I have seen and handled a couple in that range and a few beyond. I wasn't up to the task of recognizing any difference. My next rifle will be by Duanne Weibe I believe. Last I priced a rifle by Duanne, it was in this range.

Bulldog,

You missed, imo:
takedown
really quick and repeateable QD mounts

JPK

Takedown option would be 2-3 (nice but not necessary). Claw mount and top end optics would add another 3. So now the total is around 20 although I was being a tad generous in some areas. No doubt you would have one hell of a rifle in the end though.

Duane would be an excellent choice! Have you started to gather parts for it yet?

That's a nice looking rifle.It's not buying the rifle that is the problem but having the income to live that way.Out of my reach.Looking at it again I would say that it doesn't take my breath away like a 80 000 dollar rifle should.For one thing it looks like a Palma target rifle with the barrel being that thick.I would not go with that action instead with another handmade.The stock is nice but not that nice.

Bulldog,

No, but I did price up a 375H&H takedown with another maker's integral QD mounts machined into the double square bridges, which Duanne suggested. Granite mountain for the action. About $13k, but I supply the action.

I keep thinking something unimportant like, " But I've already got a very nice 375H&H..."

I want the takedown or a 375 double of some sort so that both of my African rifles can travle in a takedown case. In truth, I am pretty sure that a 375H&H bolt is the better choice as a second rifle. If only because when a tracker is carrying it it has four down and an empty chamber and he has the SPARE ammo. So a switch and I've got a rifle with four. With a double I need to get both ammo and rifle from him.

I think carrying two different types of ammo is asking for trouble. I won't even mix softs and solids in the loops on my cartridge belt after I once discovered - to my horror - that I spent a day tracking and looking over elephants with a soft in one of my double's chambers. I could swear I checked 'em before loading them too.

Our tastes in rifles aren't too far apart, btw. I love your double.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
I did not ask Steve, but I am quite sure that his cut of the $82,500 he got for the rifle was at least $40k. So that is the "maker" cost and has nothing to do with engraving.....

Marc,

I dont dispute the quality of Heilmanns work, have inspected it personally.
But maybe you can indicate-detail how you/he would come up with a figure of 40k+ for an unembelished mauser like his 500j or as I have priced below at near half the cost.
I Have heard of someone who charges 8k+ for a stock job, is Heilmann that person? If that is the case,then I guess he also charges alot more than most for everything else done on a rifle.

I posted this earlier:


6k........HartmannWeiss magnum mauser receiver.
5k.........top end stock job
3k.........top end walnut blank
2k.........full custom (one of) bottom metal unit.
4k.........top end integral featured barrel.
1.5k.........premium rust blue&color case.
2k...........custom made screws,crossbolts, grip cap, combe and grip strap.

TOTAL 23.5k.....


I honestly cannot see 40k+ of work. and bear in mind that the above custom components come pretty much preped & ready for bluing or engraving.
Im guessing its the rate he charges per hr that brings it up to that. But If he can charge such a price and people are happy to pay such, then thats his success,and I begrudge a man not for that.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Bulldog,

No, but I did price up a 375H&H takedown with another maker's integral QD mounts machined into the double square bridges, which Duanne suggested. Granite mountain for the action. About $13k, but I supply the action.

I keep thinking something unimportant like, " But I've already got a very nice 375H&H..."

I want the takedown or a 375 double of some sort so that both of my African rifles can travle in a takedown case. In truth, I am pretty sure that a 375H&H bolt is the better choice as a second rifle. If only because when a tracker is carrying it it has four down and an empty chamber and he has the SPARE ammo. So a switch and I've got a rifle with four. With a double I need to get both ammo and rifle from him.

I think carrying two different types of ammo is asking for trouble. I won't even mix softs and solids in the loops on my cartridge belt after I once discovered - to my horror - that I spent a day tracking and looking over elephants with a soft in one of my double's chambers. I could swear I checked 'em before loading them too.

Our tastes in rifles aren't too far apart, btw. I love your double.

JPK

Thanks for the compliment. She is a beauty... But yours isn't exactly a beater either

Have you looked at Stuart's actions? He makes a very nice double square bridge 375 Mauser.

http://www.satterleearms.com/375_length.htm

Bulldog-

I blew up the rear sight as much as I could, but it is washed out in the glare from th elights. It looks to be a WHITE triangle (ivory, platinum?) and is very larger. It goes right up to the bottom of the shallow "V" of the rear sight. I imagine Reece installed the insert and he would likely tell you and maybe even be able to provide pics.

The extended top tang was case hardened. I am personally against color casing Mauser actions and will not do it, but the last thing I want to see is this thread go off on another tangent! AT any rate, the entire action and associated metal was color case hardened.

I do not know what Steve charges for his stock work, and do not discuss other's unpublished prices even if I did. THe only reason I mentioned "$82,500" on this rifle is that Steve had it on th espec sheet on the table in front of the rifle. If you look very closely in th epic I posted you can see the price.

I will say that I know several people who charge considerably north of the $4-5k stock making labor figure quoted here. I can tell you that personally I have stopped taking "lower end" -for lack of a better term- work in the past couple of months and will now only work at the higher level. There is no right or wrong. Every maker has to decide where they want to position themselves in the market. Some can do a mix of upper and lower end, but it was hard for me to try to do both. I am going to focus on turning out a very few higher end guns now. Come check them out in Reno next year-I hope the vote goes my way!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Bulldog-

I blew up the rear sight as much as I could, but it is washed out in the glare from th elights. It looks to be a WHITE triangle (ivory, platinum?) and is very larger. It goes right up to the bottom of the shallow "V" of the rear sight. I imagine Reece installed the insert and he would likely tell you and maybe even be able to provide pics.

The extended top tang was case hardened. I am personally against color casing Mauser actions and will not do it, but the last thing I want to see is this thread go off on another tangent! AT any rate, the entire action and associated metal was color case hardened.

I do not know what Steve charges for his stock work, and do not discuss other's unpublished prices even if I did. THe only reason I mentioned "$82,500" on this rifle is that Steve had it on th espec sheet on the table in front of the rifle. If you look very closely in th epic I posted you can see the price.

I will say that I know several people who charge considerably north of the $4-5k stock making labor figure quoted here. I can tell you that personally I have stopped taking "lower end" -for lack of a better term- work in the past couple of months and will now only work at the higher level. There is no right or wrong. Every maker has to decide where they want to position themselves in the market. Some can do a mix of upper and lower end, but it was hard for me to try to do both. I am going to focus on turning out a very few higher end guns now. Come check them out in Reno next year-I hope the vote goes my way!!!

Thats what I thought about the rear sight. I saw the rifle at the show but didn't bring my camera so was going from memory. Quite a stunning piece.

Also sent you a PM.

When we start talking about $40,000+ rifles and Mercedes and $5,000,000 yachts then we are not talking about the average guy that can afford a custom rifle. This is upper class stuff that most people cannot afford. I could never afford to buy that kind of rifle and to be truthful, even if I could afford it, I would not buy one. I use my guns to hunt with, not to put in a safe or put on display. Everyone has their own reasons to buy a custom rifle and if they want to spend $80,000 for one then that's ok, but $2,000 can buy a guy a pretty dang nice rifle these days.

quote:

Originally posted by M70Nut:
I use my guns to hunt with, not to put in a safe or put on display. Everyone has their own reasons to buy a custom rifle and if they want to spend $80,000 for one then that's ok, but $2,000 can buy a guy a pretty dang nice rifle these days.

My expensive guns go hunting, that is what they were made for. I haven't paid $40k for a rifle (yet), but I have a rifle that would cost more to replace and it sees hard use, but good care.

You can get a plenty functional rifle for $2k, and it will do what needs doing. I wouldn't call a rifle in this league "dang nice", but that is me.

JPK

After reading all the postings on this topic and getting to see some amazing workmanship, my opinion is that no one here disputes that you can get a perfectly functioning rifle for well under 6K. As for above and beyond that figure, it seems to be purely cosmetic and "name".
I like to collect knives...I can buy an off the shelf knife for a fraction of what a new Randall will cost, will do the same job, but I have purchased several Randall's in the past, just for the name....maybe even "status" of owning some. I recently paid close to 1K for a handmade bowie...again, like to look at it, probably won't use it, but to me it was worth it for it's beauty and workmanship.
So even though I would never pay anything near 40K for a rifle, since my under 2K ones work fine, those of you who do truly own a work of art and a treasure.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Woodjack,
Its not even that, I just don't think I know enough about really excellent bolt rifles to see or appreciate anything beyond about a $16k rifle. I have seen and handled a couple in that range and a few beyond. I wasn't up to the task of recognizing any difference. My next rifle will be by Duanne Weibe I believe. Last I priced a rifle by Duanne, it was in this range....
JPK

JpK,

I understand what your saying,we can get carried away just quoting & comparing prices.Sometimes you just get a name for the higher price. eg;
I would have a Ralf Martini mauser over a H&H mauser any day.
Why?... cause I believe Ralfs work is superior. The fact that he charges far less is a bonus.
H&W magnumMauser actions come with BlackBurnBottom. many would be more than happy with that very functional setup without complaint. Others feel they want the H&W but with custom 2k bottom metal...and that the rifle has to be built by a certain maker..where does it stop? depends what you value I guess.

Me personally, as much as I appreciate good walnut&stockwork, I see no problem with having some top end metal placed in a quality glass stock. That could be for financial budget limit reasons or for practicle field reasons.
I dont believe it degrades a rifle, cause the premium metal has stand alone value that you may appreciate,need or put priority on over walnut.
Put it this way, If my budget limit was 10k, I would rather spend my money on impeccable refined metal in a glass stock, than average metal in flashy walnut.... cause, I will always have that strong foundation of quality prepared metal to add a quality bit of walnut to.

Woodjack,

I have to say that I'm a fool for a great piece of well done walnut. I have trouble understanding why a guy would put a beautiful rifle together and "forget" the stock. But hey, thats why there are blonds, brunettes and redheads.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
After reading all the postings on this topic and getting to see some amazing workmanship, my opinion is that no one here disputes that you can get a perfectly functioning rifle for well under 6K.

Actually, I dispute that. Who is building DGRs that are 100% reliable for 6K?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
After reading all the postings on this topic and getting to see some amazing workmanship, my opinion is that no one here disputes that you can get a perfectly functioning rifle for well under 6K.

Actually, I dispute that. Who is building DGRs that are 100% reliable for 6K?

Lon Paul and Dave Caboth are two I am familiar with - and I'll bet others here can name at least a dozen more.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
After reading all the postings on this topic and getting to see some amazing workmanship, my opinion is that no one here disputes that you can get a perfectly functioning rifle for well under 6K.

Actually, I dispute that. Who is building DGRs that are 100% reliable for 6K?

How about a Prechtl-actioned SIGARMS Mauser 98 Magnum in 450 Dakota purchased new at Cabela's for $5495 or $5995 depending on whether you haggled or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Come check them out in Reno next year-I hope the vote goes my way!!!

Marc,
Good luck on the vote, I'm sure we are all pulling for you.

Barring any life changing events, I'll be there again and look forward to meeting you.

Dave