Recently acquired two .395 barrels at the right price. No idea were to start as far as bullets go. Going to build a 450/400 doublebut need some advice on bullet availability and best casting options. Thanx for looking.

You have entered an exclusive club. I'm sure RIP can help you out with a lot of info. Do a search of 395 in the search engine on the forum.

RIP and I were the first two .395'ers. RIP was the instigator. We have bought bullets from DGS in South Africa, S&H bullets in California, and CEB on the east coast. All of them have been accurate and deadly on game. Hopefully, RIP will add to this as the father of the .395 caliber.
Max

.395" is a catalog item in HV for plainsgame, FN for dangerous game (free of hassles from the ATF) and in SP for longer distances.

By the time your double is done, GSC bullets will be made in the USA.

www.gscustomusa.com

Gerard,
My apologies on incorrect bullet name, GSC, not DGS! I can only blame it on lack of sleep and lateness in posting. I am very happy that your bullets will be made in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by Smoke73:
Recently acquired two .395 barrels at the right price. No idea were to start as far as bullets go. Going to build a 450/400 doublebut need some advice on bullet availability and best casting options. Thanx for looking.

Welcome New Member, with one excellent post, Smoke73!
Oh, really?
You are not just pulling my leg?
You want to do a new wildcat like the 450/400 NE 3" but with .395 barrels and bullets?
So this would be a 450/.395 NE 3"?
Max aka prof242 and I have already done single shot Ruger No.1 rifles as 400/.395 Nitro Express 3" "Aboriginal" aka 10.03 x 75R by other nomenclature.
I do believe another member here has Rusty McGee building him one also.

Sorry to be late to the thread, been too busy lately.
I will start digging up old pics and info after work tonight.
Just make this thread a .395 reference.
Any other contributers on the .395 caliber rifles of yore, and this century too, please feel free to add.

Basics for starters:

McGowen is the only source for barrels.
1:12" Twist, chrome-moly or stainless, standard or custom contour.
.395" Groove, .388" land/bore diameters, 6-groove, right hand twist, IIRC, I have had to be corrected on this before.
I specified .387" land/bore in the beggining, but the final spec came out .388". OK.
Barrel tooling was contracted by Harry McGowen and his son just before they sold business to Montana, McGowen Precision Barrels.
Very kind of them to humor me.
I have 4 Harry & Son barrels and 2 Montana-McGowen barrels, 6 rifles.
Max and his buddy have done more.

Bullets:
Yes, GSC, excellent: 340-grain HV, FN, SP, all moly-coated copper monometals.

CEB has made a custom run of 240-grain copper Flat Base hunting bullets.

S&H did some excellent brass bullets starting with a 330-grain FN, 325-grain "Ripper" SP, and a 310-grain "Velohexploder" NonCon hollowpoint. Latter went to Tanzania in 2010 with Saeed's expedition, .395 Tatanka.
Max drew first blood on elk with that S&H 310-grainer IIRC.

Sadly S&H is off the grid on those bullets for now.

It's great that GSC can still supply them.
I'll be ordering some from USA production.


NEI has an off-the-shelf mould for .396/240-grain lead gas-checked bullets,
that somebody must have been using in an antique long before I dreamt the .395.
"400 Nitro for Black Powder 3-Inch" and others apparently did exist, in the 1800s, and used a lead bullet about that weight (230-grain lead bullet).

Veral Smith of LBT made a super mould for me that produces 410-grain/.396-caliber/gas-checked bullets when cast in "Rippalloy."
(A throat slug was sent to him, from the .395 Tatanka, per his usual method of custom fitting a bullet mould.)
Rippalloy is my recipe similar to Lyman No.2 alloy, but mo' bettah for my cooking.

21rst Century Cartridges of .395 caliber, so far:

1. 400/.395 NE 3"
2. .395 H&H
3. .395 Ruger Max
4. 398 Lapua
5. .395 Tatanka

More to come, now that you got me started.
I'll check all the specifics to within 1 grain and .001" at most. Keeping Sometimer's disease at bay.

.395-CALIBER RIFLES: FROM FLINTLOCK TO NITRO-FOR-BLACK AND BEYOND

www.mcgowenbarrel.com

From www.neihandtools.com there is proof that .395 barrels existed before McGowen started making them,
in the form of this old cataloged bullet mould:

Veral Smith makes a nice .396/410-gr LFN-GC mould:

http://lbtmoulds.com/index.shtml

Here is how one performed at 2200 fps (400/.395 NE) in the Iron Waterboard Buffalo, bullet torture test
(middle bullet below):

The "Aboriginal" Nitro Express:

Barrel from McGowen:



Reamer from Dave Manson:



Dies from CH4D:



Dummie cartridge formed from Norma 9.3x74R brass straightened out. On left is a 405 WCF:

Like the looks of that cast bullet. What all is involved as far as getting gas check to fit. Did you have to make your own sizing die?

Glad to hear you used a Manson reamer. We order from him as well. I will reference your work when I talk to him if that is ok.

quote:

Originally posted by Smoke73:
Like the looks of that cast bullet. What all is involved as far as getting gas check to fit. Did you have to make your own sizing die?

Smoke73,
Yes, Dave Manson has done all the .395 reamers.
The entire family of .395 cartridges has been released to the gun trade, no proprietary strings attached.

Very perceptive of you on the gas check.
I asked Veral smith what to do, and he said try a .416 gas check from hornady, so I did.
A custom-made gas check might be better, but I ge t by, like so:

Lyman 4500 Lube Sizer with 115V Universal Lube Heater Accessory plugged into it.
Lyman Gas Check Seater, part #2745881, used with the 4500.
Lyman .400" sizing die, for the 4500, off the shelf, but a custom .396" would be nice.
Top Punch that fits the nose shape: Lyman #43
LBT Blue Lube.

I seat the gas check and then lube with the over-sized parts, pushing through with the nose punch.

Then I use a Lee .396" custom-made bullet sizer to push the bullet through from the base of the bullet,
This flattens the bulging base of the gas check and crimps it in at the sides of the base, uniforming and clamping it on.

Max told me about the Lee cast bullet sizers. He got a set first.
I ordered same, about $30 apiece: .405, .400, .397, .396, .395, .394
You can also use these to size 40-cal/10mm pistol pullets down to .395,
the .394" idea is to allow for some spring-back of jacketed/cup&core pistol bullets.
Thank you prof242.

Before Lube, .396/410-grain LFN GC, and a .512/470-grain boolitt for the 50-70 Govt for comparison:



After lubing with the Lyman 4500 Lube Sizer press and then fitting of gas check with lee die in an Ammo Master press, again for comparison:



Rippalloy (BHN 15) castings of .512 (left box) and .396 boolitts (base up, top box, nose up right box):



Veral muffed the label on my mould, called it "416 Tatanka" instead of "395 Tatanka."
Maybe it was the gas check size suggested that got him in a dither.
The .395 Tatanka is a .416 Rigby necked down with 20-degree shoulder.
There is a .416 Tatanka wildcat by a guy named Bo, but it is a 404 Jeffery necked down to .416.
Confusing, eh?



I sprayed the inside of the mould with moly before I put it away.



RCBS handles.





65 grains of RL-15 gave 2308 fps with the 410-grainer, and good accuracy in my Ruger No.1 400/.395NE (26-7/8" barrel).
It kills buckets of water and plywood boards very well, at 2200 fps impact.

That little 400/.395 Nitro Express 3" "Aboriginal" gives near .416 Rigby ballistics with very low recoil.
It is a mighty mite!

GSC bullets, conceived in 2006, coming soon to USA production?







Expansion of the GSC HV at 1600 fps, 2100 fps and 2600 fps impact:



GSC HV 340-grainer in 398 Lapua Magnum at right.
L-R: 300, .338, .375, 398 Lapua

The S&H .395 "Trio"
310-grain VeloHexploder Hollow Point
330-grain FN Solid
325-grain "Ripper" VLD
in the Fabulous Five .395 wildcats:



L-R:
400/.395 NE 3"
.395 H&H
.395 Ruger Max
398 Lapua magnum
.395 Tatanka

Headstamp is easy by changing a single digit on the parent case for three of them:
.395 H&H
.395 Ruger
.398 Lapua Magnum

Qual Cart made .395 Tatanka brass.
I never had 400/.395 NE brass made.

The most recent development is from CEB, the .395/240-grain Flat Base Hunting Bullet:





And preliminary load development, 50-yard targets.
Note the velocities, which might be fast enough to make them open up with that tiny nose hole:

COTW up to 7th Ed.:



Then the .395-caliber vanished from COTW.

COTW 8th Ed. and subsequent, used same cartridge drawing for a different cartridge:



Did the British start the .395-caliber centerfire metallic cartridge?
Over 10 years ago a member posted here of having an antique Martini-actioned sporting rifle that had a .395 groove by his slugging.
I have used the search function to find it, but cannot.
Lost.
It could date to the 1870s.
Also, there were experimental 40-caliber military Martini-Henry rifles in the 1870s.

I think that 7th Ed. of COTW got the caliber of the 400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3") correct: .395 bullet

So little is known about it that they discussed the similar 400 Purdey (.405-caliber bullet) when they listed the 400 NFB3" (above).
Subsequent editions of COTW, after the 7th, simply dropped the 400 NFB3" and listed the 400 Purdey instead.

There was a natural evolution from Blackpowder cartridge to Nitro For Black, then on to full Nitro Express loads, all using the same cartridge case,
like with the 450 NE and 500 NE.
The full Nitro Express loads did not arrive until about 1898 with the 450 NE 3-1/14".

The .395 got cheated.
.395 Evolution?
1. 400 Blackpowder cartridges of various length case from 2" to 3-1/4": from 1870s forward?
2. 400 Nitro For Blackpowder Express 3": 1890s?
3. 400 Nitro Express with full Nitro charges and heavy jacketed bullet loads: never happened,
instead, Purdey altered the bullet to .405-caliber in the same case, as the 400 Purdey

That has been corrected, with the 400/.395 Nitro Express 3-Inch of 2007.
It packs a lot more punch than the usurper 400 Purdey Light Rifle Express.

450/400 NE rifles (3-1/4" then 3") have morphed too, from .405" to .410" bullet caliber over the years.

Gerard,

Good to see you are going to make GS bullets more available in the US. Can you give some thought to getting rid of the moly coating though? Here it's an idea which pretty much has gone.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Gerard,

Good to see you are going to make GS bullets more available in the US. Can you give some thought to getting rid of the moly coating though? Here it's an idea which pretty much has gone.

Good point,
I see the moly as superfluous but harmless.
An option for bullets skipping the final moly coat would be a good one to offer.
How would that affect the final finish weight and diameter of the bullet?
Also would save GSC-USA some expense and trouble.

Another old .395-bulleted cartridge?
From pages 97 and 98 of EUROPEAN SPORTING CARTRIDGES by W. B. Dixon:

Using a 10.03mm bullet (exactly .395") is the cartridge known as the 10.15x65R Express (item GSP42 in the lineup below):

"Loaded by DWM (case #498) from c1905 (not in the 1904 catalog) but not apparently listed in post WWI catalogs (?).
Found with both DWM numbered cases and also proprietary "H T & Co. 10.15" headstamp (unknown but may be E.H. Tanner & Co known c1913)."

A Purdey 400 Purdey which needs to be relined to fit .395-caliber bullets:

Stepping up from 400 Purdey 3-Inch "Light" ballistics to the full Nitro Express ballistics
of the 400/.395 Nitro Express 3"
is still low enough pressure for modern powders and modern steels.
Could work well in an 8 to 9 pound double rifle.
A 7.5-pound dry-weight single-shot is able to do more than necessary:




Or a heavier version at 9 lbs. dry wt. with heavier 26" barrel, like on this .395 Tatanka:



Cast boolitts:




I just quit when the 410-grainers got up to + 2300 fps: fast enough for a lead boolitt,
near .416 Rigby ballistics.
Primers were still rounded and everything was pleasingly gentle about this shooting.



How the brass fireforms from 9.3x74R Hornady brass:







Not bad for crude, homemade lead boolitts.
The modern bullets of GSC and CEB can really make this Mighty Mite "400/.395 NE" shoot!
S&H too:

Anybody want to see what the Mighty Mite 400/.395 Nitro Express will do with 340-grain GSC bullets and 240-grain CEB bullets?
That is a versatile spread in bullet weights: 240--340--410 grains
.395 Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Anybody want to see what the Mighty Mite 400/.395 Nitro Express will do with 340-grain GSC bullets and 240-grain CEB bullets?
That is a versatile spread in bullet weights: 240--340--410 grains
.395 Nitro

Easy answer... Yep!

Heh, heh, someone still cares.

Jim,
I am going to have the results by week's end.
I have hitherto saved the GSC bullets and CEB bullet for higher-powered members of the .395 Litter.
I have done my QuickLOAD simulations for the .395 Nitro Mighty Mite.
I will shoot and chronograph this week.
240-grain CEB FBH with: Hodgdon Benchmark Extreme, maybe H4895 too
340-grain GSC FN and HV with: Hodgdon Varget Extreme
410-grain LBT LFN-GC with: Hodgdon 4350 Extreme

I am "extremely" fond of Hodgdon extruded powders.
The H4350 load with the 410-grainer will be suitable for a relined, re-regulated 400 Purdey.
Shucks, might as well rebarrel all those old 400 Purdey "Nitro Lite" rifles.
No "Nitro Lite" for me, nor Bud Lite.
Full Nitro, Bud Heavy.

For those of you that don't cast bullets, RIP's example is one of Perfect performance that many of us have a hard time matching.
He has it down to an art.

Cheers, John

RIP,
As always, you are a mile ahead. I've been having a ball with my .400/.395 Express (although, my shot glasses ended up with .395/.400 Nitro Express on them. Will be sending you some anyway.) The 240 gr bullets shoot with extreme accuracy. Just haven't been able to shoot anything with them to test expansion.
I may have been wrong to want the smaller hollowpoint, but gotta find something to shoot!
Have you tested them in the water buffalo yet?
Max

Max,

I don't think you need to worry about the CEB HP opening up...check their website photographs for the recovered bullet fired from a 300 WSM - don't recollect if recovered from deer or elk - but pretty darn good performance.

RIP,
What alloy mix are you using for your cast bullets??
I have to paper patch to get to your velocity with a soft bullet.

Great work,
Cheers, John

Max,
The Iron waterboard Buffalo has been out to pasture lately.
You ought to get 3000 fps with the 240-grainers in the .395 Ruger Max ...
I am shooting for 2800 fps with the 400/.395 NE.

John,
Thanks.
Either of these will do:

Rippalloy #1: Makes 13 lbs.
Melt
12.0 lbs. of clip-on wheel weights
+
0.5 lbs. chilled lead shot (regular soft bird shot)
+
0.5 lbs. of 95/5 (tin/antimony) solder
+
water-dropped into a 5-gallon bucket of water

Rippalloy #2: Makes 10 lbs.
Melt
9.5 lbs. of Lawrence brand No. 7-1/2 "Magnum Shot" (High Antimony, 5% Sb)
+
1/2 lbs. 95/5 (Sn/Sb) solder
Water dropped.

Rippalloy #2 is my favorite: 90/5/5 (Pb/Sn/Sb) = Lyman #2.
Gas check and lube of choice. LBT "Blue Lube" is pretty.

Never know for sure what you are getting in the wheel weights.

RIP
what was your mix to get such a neat mushroom on that cast bullet running @2200

Rip,
How well does your cast load compare to a cup and core bullet on the Water Board Buff test??

I'm thinking it did pretty good.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
RIP
what was your mix to get such a neat mushroom on that cast bullet running @2200

M 98,
The cast bullet mushroom above was from Rippalloy #1 recipe above.
Rippalloy #2 or Lyman #2 should do just as well: 90/5/5 Lead/Tin/Antimony

The rest of the recipe, directions, is just having the right caliber, weight and bullet design with gas check and proper lube.

Retained weight = 325.2 grains = 79.3 %
Max expansion = .802" = 202 %
2200 fps


Phatman,
The IWBB bullet trap was set up with 10 compartments,
each 10" deep with 9" of water (in a flat-sided plastic bucket) and a single thickness of 1/2" plywood board, leaving 1/2" of air.
One hundred inches long, plus a 4" thick stack of plywood at the end.

The .396/410-grain cast bullet at 2200 fps (400/.395 NE) was recovered from the third bucket.

The .395/330-grain S&H Brass FN at 2800 fps (.395 Tatanka) was recovered from the tenth bucket.

The soft lead muzzleloader bullet (.50/300-grain at about 2000 fps) exploded in the first bucket.

Various .375 bullets of premium construction and 300 grains at 2700 fps will make it to about the sixth bucket, with less splash and splintering.

I can make the IWBB tougher by adding boards to each compartment, either 1, 2, or 3 boards, 1/2", 1" or 1-1/2" of wood backing each of the 10 water buckets.

Nothing is harder at entry than that water at top speed.
That starts the nose expansion immediately, and really puts the brakes on the bullet.

Wish I had some game shooting to show with this bullet, but not enough hours in my days nor days in my years ...

It will do fine, surely, on game, but for elephant with the 400/.395, need a copper or brass FN solid.

For those that never saw the IWBB, here are a few views to show what the setup looks like:









Here are the actual remains of the cast bullet torture/interrogation by Iron Waterboard Buffalo,

first bucket exploded, second bucket split, third bucket perforated and the backing board was dented,
bullet recovered inside of bucket:

RIP,
I remember reports from you using the IWBB. All were straightforward, technically correct. I think if some of the newer thread readers went back and saw them, they could pick up some useful info...just like on Michael458's box.

Max,
I am just a duffer compared to Doc M at MIB.
No need for the IWBB anymore, just refer to the "Terminal Ballistics" thread.
I got my 400/.395 NE ammo loaded.
Didn't get to shoot it yet, but will make that a top priority tomorrow.

Good Luck to you!
Max

I am truly inspired to reach the level of Duffer!!!

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Good Luck to you!
Max

Thanks Max, luck was pretty good!
I think I have some good info for the handful of 400/.395 NE shooters in the world. Very exclusive club.

I put a centennial Leupold scope on Elvira, 1907-2007, 3x-9x with 1/4-MOA click adjustments and a Boone & Crockett reticle:



Trundled off to the range and bore sighted at 50 yards,
by looking through the bore and scope at the target, through the chronograph.
Got 48 shots on chrono, with 2 errors.
36 of the CEB 240-grain FBH
6 of the GSC 340-grain FN
6 of the 410-grain cast lead
Same scope settings unchanged throughout the different loads, to see how POI changed for various loads.

I started with CEB, took only three shots to arrive at the zero,
by shooting at the "Four Corners" center of 4 large targets,
stapled to the cardboard in the target frame.

Then I fired the best group of the two hours of shooting, with the next 3 bullets:

Bullet: 240-grain CEB .395-caliber FBH

Powder: Hodgdon Benchmark Extreme
Brass: Hornady 9.3x74R
Primer: Federal GM215M
COL: 3.727"
Temperature: 58 F to 63 F as the day progressed.

Charge (grains)/ Velocity (fps) @ 15 feet, average for 3 shots/ 3-shot group size (inches, center-to-center) at 50 yards/ Extreme-Spread of velocityfor 3 shots (fps):

66.0 gr/ 2794.3 fps/ N/A (zeroing rifle)/ 9 fps

67.0 gr/ 2815 fps/ 0.211"/ 7 fps

68.0 gr/ 2845.3 fps/ 0.576"/ 6 fps

69.0 gr/ 2851 fps/ 0.743"/ 9 fps



VARGET: Not so good.



RL-15: Better than Varget, for accuracy, but a little slower, with my powder lots, for same charge of powder.



H4895 Extreme: Almost as good as Benchmark for velocity, at lower pressure
but with mildly compressed load of H4895, compression not required with Benchmark.



240-grain CEB bullet powder pick:
Benchmark for top accuracy/velocity/uniformity with no powder compression.
67.0 grains is about a 97% volume load, pressure is about 55,000 PSI,
guesstimating from QuickLOAD modeling.


GSC 340-grain FN:

Very small extreme spreads for 3 shots, 2 fps (RL-15) and 5 fps (VARGET),
with same 66.0 grain charge of RL-15 and VARGET.
VARGET gave better velocity again, and slightly better accuracy,
just the opposite of the comparison on the 240-grain bullet accuracy.
I know what you are thinking: small sample size, your specific powder lots, etc. ...
Also a startling difference in POI: Over 2 inches higher with the VARGET, though only just over 20 fps faster.
I know what you are thinking: Barrel harmonics, etc.



410-grain cast bullet:
I rushed the gas check and lube and got some cockeyed gas checks, I guess.
But, 65.0 grains of H4350 gave 2182.7 fps.
That is just a 99% volume load (no compression) and a guesstimated QuickLOAD pressure of less than 47,000 PSI.
It equals 450/400 NE 3" traditional ballistics.
Could be used in a sporty little double rifle of modern steel.



So ballistically, the Mighty Mite 400/.395 Nitro Express beats the .375 H&H, which is adequate for anything.
Bullets for elephant:
GSC 340-grain/.395-caliber FN copper monometal solid
S&H 330-grain/.395-caliber FN brass monometal solid
... or a new bullet from CEB, which does not exist ... yet.

Phatman,
I'll try to do better with the cast boolits next time.
You too can be a duffer.

RIP,
Great shooting and great load development.
It seems its time for me to continue test with this powerful old/new timer. Will try some other powders, though Benchmark would have been one of my initial ones.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:

It seems its time for me to continue test with this powerful old/new timer. Will try some other powders, though Benchmark would have been one of my initial ones.

Great, but what about the .395 Ruger Max, Max?
You can get a couple hundred fps more with that one and the 240-grain CEB FBH.

Remember, this is a .395 bullet thread, for the entire litter of .395 kittens.
Show us the way with the .395 Max.