I have never owned either of these calibers but the general opinion here seems to be that the 458 is lacking in velocity. Yet when I read the reloading manuals I see the 458 reaching velocities of 2100 fps with the 500 grain bullets. Some people claim the pressures are to high. Opinions here claim the Lott is better because it will hit 2200 fps with low pressure. Who cares as long as the load is safe? When I read the rags I notice a lot of guides carry the 458 and are happy with it. Now that I am done rambling I will ask the question, Who here has loaded for the 458 and found it to be lacking and felt the need to go to the Lott? Or is the Lott just the common "buzz" word at the time? To me, in my limited knowledge of large calibers 100 fps seems to be insignificant. Or am I missing something?

The .458 Win can be loaded with 500 gr. bullets to 2150 FPS with a few certain powders..

The 458 Lott can do the same at the same pressures at 2350 FPS and thats a sugnificant difference...

It only takes common since to know that more powder capacity gives you more velocity at like pressures....

Now the nay sayers that load the crap out of their .458 Win.s will jump in with little gems of wisdom...

I would prefer the Lott loaded to 2200 FPS and it be very mild of pressure, to a .458 Win loaded to 2200 FPS and thats a hot compacted load anyway you cut it...

Loaded properly both have great killing and stopping power, a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS is a good stopper of anything...

In some ways, this comparison is like buying a 12ga shotgun...do you want a 2.75" chamber or a 3". The longer one can do anything the shorter one can, but not vice versa.

I agree that the lott offers superior ballistics. I doubt the increased velocity makes any difference on a properly placed shot However, I like the shorter bolt throw of the Win Mag. As I shoot that length for my other hunting rifles, I find it is easier to cycle for me.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I agree that the lott offers superior ballistics. I doubt the increased velocity makes any difference on a properly placed shot However, I like the shorter bolt throw of the Win Mag. As I shoot that length for my other hunting rifles, I find it is easier to cycle for me.

That's certainly a good reason, and, you can make a much lighter rifle on the shorter action.

Just curious if the 458 Lott CZ 550 will easily feed the 458 winmag? IIRC, Ganyana mentioned in the bigger actions, designed for the 375, at least, the 458 winmag had reliability problems in the huge CZ actions. Always wondered if the
458 win mag was just a single shot type thing, or you could load up a magazine, and use them for hunting in a pinch?
gs

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I have never owned either of these calibers but the general opinion here seems to be that the 458 is lacking in velocity. Yet when I read the reloading manuals I see the 458 reaching velocities of 2100 fps with the 500 grain bullets. Some people claim the pressures are to high. Opinions here claim the Lott is better because it will hit 2200 fps with low pressure. Who cares as long as the load is safe? When I read the rags I notice a lot of guides carry the 458 and are happy with it. Now that I am done rambling I will ask the question, Who here has loaded for the 458 and found it to be lacking and felt the need to go to the Lott? Or is the Lott just the common "buzz" word at the time? To me, in my limited knowledge of large calibers 100 fps seems to be insignificant. Or am I missing something?

A few weeks ago, I chrony'd some factory win mag loads (Winchester brand) and some factory Lott loads (Hornady). Both achieved rated velocity (win mag >2100 fps, Lott >2300 fps).

200 fps doesn't sound like much on a 150 grain .30 caliber bullet, but it is a *hell* of a difference with a 500 grain .458 cal bullet.

If your a fan of big bores, you owe it to yourself to get a rifle in one of these calibers. You get absolute respect at the range (sort of that 'mine is bigger than yours' thing). Plus, they are tons-o-fun to shoot and master. Not many people ever do.

I can tell you though, the Lott is one brutal piece of firepower in a 9.25lb Ruger No. 1.

The Lott may be brutal in a 9.25 lb rifle, b ut after you've carried it 10 miles after ELE in 100 degree temps, and that big tusker of youre dreams has just started his charge. you won't feel a thing! Personally I think a 8lb double is just the ticket in 458 Lott!-Rob

I easily get 2,150 to 2,200 fps with 500 grain bullets (Hornady, Woodleigh, Swift, Speer) out of my 458 Win Mag. Ammo is made up of Winchester brass, CCI primers and some A2230 powder. These are not compressed loads either (actually, they are if you are loading 500 grain Barnes bullets).

I have a Pre-64 M70 "African" Supergrade with the 25" factory barrel.

Tim

and, you can make a much lighter rifle on the shorter action.

GS,

I would be very interested to know how you can do that on the M70 action.....especially since conversion of the M70 that is chambered for 30/06, 7mm Rem or 458 Win will mean removal of metal from the action.

Mike

Unless you have hunted extensively with both, it would be tough to see a difference between a 458WM at 2150 fps and a Lott at 2300 fps, except in the recoil department.

It seems the general feeling among DG hunters is that the Lott is just more of a good thing.

Personally I gave up on the Lott and went back to the 458WM because of the recoil, but you won't notice the difference when hunting, so take your pick!

A little longer, a Lott better

and, you can make a much lighter rifle on the shorter action.

of course the 458 AR will fit in the same 458 winmag action and have the case capacity of the lott..

the cz 550 in 375, 416 rigby, 458 win, and 458lott all use the same bottom metal and sheetmetal mag.

The lott at 9.5# is a pussycat, if you have trained with it and it FITS you..
of course, that's jeffe talking from the north side of 110# of recoil in the 550 express

Bigger is always better, is that not the word?

However, I do not understand why the .458WinMag is not more often loaded with bullets in the 450-480 grs range, still with a SD above .300, it reaches 2150 with lower preassures and does those grains/ foot-pounds really make such a big difference? In the hunt, I mean - not around the campfire.....

In those very scarse critical happenings when YOU are the hunted one and distances are very short, I would think shot placement the most iportant matter.

Then again, when your bricks are full and you can smell the cats breath, I guess anyting smaller than .950SweetJesus feels to small.

I easily get 2,150 to 2,200 fps with 500 grain bullets (Hornady, Woodleigh, Swift, Speer) out of my 458 Win Mag. Ammo is made up of Winchester brass, CCI primers and some A2230 powder. These are not compressed loads either (actually, they are if you are loading 500 grain Barnes bullets).

I have a Pre-64 M70 "African" Supergrade with the 25" factory barrel.

Tim

I think the more correct asessment is that the 458 win mag is capable of driving 500 gr bullets to sufficient velocity with some modern powders and some bullets. The 458 Lott IMHO isn't better due to more speed, but better because there is more room in the case for powder, especially if you want to use the long mono-metal bullets. Many of the original complaints lodged at the 458 win mag are no longer valid, however I still agree with the asessment that the case is too small for 500 gr bullets.

After having had two 458 lotts, I don't think it is the best case if you want to push 500 gr to 2300 fps (though it is fully capable of that), but it is the most practicle 45 if you want 500's @ 2100-2200 fps. Best yet you don't have to burn signifigantly more powder than the 458 win mag when loaded to win mag speeds as you do with the bigger cases, and you can get magazines that hold quite a few of the 45 attitude adjusters.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A little longer, a Lott better

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
The Lott may be brutal in a 9.25 lb rifle, b ut after you've carried it 10 miles after ELE in 100 degree temps, and that big tusker of youre dreams has just started his charge. you won't feel a thing! Personally I think a 8lb double is just the ticket in 458 Lott!-Rob

Damn, that sounds cool!

I've played with the 458win and the 450 ackley(similar to the lott)And find the longer round better in every way,in the acklet 2250 with a 500gr at resonable pressure was easy,not possible in the 458 win.The 458 win doesn't make sense unless it is built on the standard ruger actionas the win and rem have the log action anyway,and the bolt throw is less than a 1/4" difference

1/4 of an inch doesn't sound like much - until you add it to an already long bolt throw and stir in a heathy dose of adrenalin and fear.
You can train yourself to handle it, of course, but for me the extra speed at which I can work the bolt of my well polished 458 Mauser offsets the extra velocity of the Lott.
We are arguing over pretty minute differences here.

I appreciate the comments. I used to own a 450 Ackley but the rifle weighed less than 8 pounds so it was a nightmare to shoot (sold it). It reached 2,400 fps with the 500 gr Hornadys with no apparent signs of high pressure. But now I have a couple of new LH Model 70's just dieing to be converted to something else! With either caliber what are some suggestions for barrel length?

Are you planning on a carrying rifle to actually hunt with or a shooting rifle. Either way the recoil from the bench will be formidible but none of the 458's are bench rifles. In fact they are not needed even a hunting rifles. They are backup rifles for really big/dangerous game and in my opinion should be designed as such.
My preference is for shorter barrels with 22" being the longest I prefer.

Snowwolf,

My latest 458 was made by mating a Ruger #1 458 takeoff barrel to a VZ-24 mauser, and the breach of the barrel was shortened 2" to get rid of the rear 1/4 rib holes Ruger deeply drills in their barrels. To me, the heavy 22" barrel is perfection, muzzle heavy to aid balance and keep the muzzle down in recoil, but short and handy to carry and swing.

There is a precious balance between shootability and packability in a heavy rifle. You want it just heavy enough to control it in recoil, but not so heavy that you dread carrying it or holding it at aim. My thinks 9# with iron sights and empty is as light as one should go, and 10# or more is too heavy.

I plan on hunting with it. And I know I don't need it, I want one, lol. I certaintly can not justify having it built other than it would be a fun project. I have no desire to shoot any more brown bears and the largest animal I may shoot with it is a moose. Although my son wants to shoot a bear and it would provide back up in that situation. I hope to get back to Africa soon but either of my 375's or my 416 Rem would work well. I would agree with you Paul on the weights. My Rem 375 from there custom shop only weighed about 7 1/2 pounds unscoped and the muzzle rise was brutal till I braked it. I dislike brakes but it helped me keep the rifle light for hunting.

My 458 Win weighs between 8 and 8 1/2 pounds and I have enough sense to place a ten pound bag of lead shot between it and myself when firing it from the bench but I never notice recoil when I fire it in the field.
this fall my daughter, who weighs 110# soaking wet, carried a 7 1/2# .416 Rem and used it to drop a wounded brown bear that was coming at her and her client. At 30 yards she put one in the chest and another up the nose. I asked her if the rifle kicked and she said not that she remembered.
Recoil lasts but a fraction of a second but gravity goes on forever.

quote:

Recoil lasts but a fraction of a second but gravity goes on forever.

I have said such til I'm blue in the face. Some just don't get it! But keep trying.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I have never owned either of these calibers but the general opinion here seems to be that the 458 is lacking in velocity. Yet when I read the reloading manuals I see the 458 reaching velocities of 2100 fps with the 500 grain bullets. Some people claim the pressures are to high. Opinions here claim the Lott is better because it will hit 2200 fps with low pressure. Who cares as long as the load is safe? When I read the rags I notice a lot of guides carry the 458 and are happy with it. Now that I am done rambling I will ask the question, Who here has loaded for the 458 and found it to be lacking and felt the need to go to the Lott? Or is the Lott just the common "buzz" word at the time? To me, in my limited knowledge of large calibers 100 fps seems to be insignificant. Or am I missing something?

Why worry about which is better. Save yourself some headaches and get the .460 Weatherby and have them all beat. Lawdog

I had a Left Handed Weatherby 460 but a nice gentleman offered me $1,200 more than I paid for it and out the door it went. Should of shot it first. But I was never comfortable with the fact it only held two down because I never have a round in the chamber unless I am stalking or ready to pull the trigger.

Mike 378,

For what its worth all M-70s are magnum length actions (there is one recent exception but its a smaller caliber action) and all you have to do is knock out the filler in the magazine or replace it...so converting to a Lott is simple as ABC, done it many times...

To the thread:
To compare the 458 Win to a 458 Lott is like comparing a 30-06 to a 300 Winchester, the simple fact is the Lott is more power in the same size gun....

I don't feel comfortable with shooting a .458 Win with a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 FPS with any powder when I can do the same thing in a Lott at much much less pressure and since both are factory rounds today I see little or no reason for the 458 Win. which was a crap design from the get go, has produced problems since its inception by the bean counters.

I understand the 458 can shoot a 500 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS with a max handload and thats fine, and it will kill anything on this earth, but for folks to claim its virtures is a little much, it has none, it has proven that for years with one problem after another.....and since it costs so little to punch one out to a Lott I don't understand anyone thinking on keeping a 458 Win around, unless recoil is a probelm in which case that may justify the .458 Win. but I would then opt for a .416 Remington.

One would think that I am not a fan of the .458, and thats true enough, but should one show up at the right price I would hunt with it, I have in the past and may again some day but it will never be my choice of a big bore.

Ray, as usual, is correct that comparing the 06 to the 300 is much like the 458 Win to the Lott and if you are using the M-70 there is no reason not to make it a Lott. But to claim the 458 Win was, and is, a faulty design is like saying the 45ACP (or the 30-06) were faulty designs as there are more potent rounds now avaliable. Tell it to the thousands of successful users over the past 50 years. Both the 45 ACP and the 458 Win earned their spurs on "dangerous game" but if you feel the need for a bigger or more powerful round there is no problem with that.

I think the 458 win is better served with a preminm 400-450gr bullets.I have a custom all stainless ruger in 458 that shoots very well with a 400gr x bullet @2390fps.Makes a great bear stopper,even great on moose to 250yds.
No flys on the 458 with those bullet weights

Ah my friend Phil and business associate how have you been lately and good to see the computer is up and running once again ,

But, your post is not a good comparison, the 45 ACP is legend, has earned its spurs in 4 wars or conflicts...The 458 Win, on the other hand, reached its mild success by being the only whore in town for a number of years...


The .458 Win. is short on powder space, tends towards compaction and high pressure as a result (mostly in hotter regions) and has repeatedly failed the test in Africa, its failures are legend albiet mostly with factory ammo..It will hardly accept a 500 grs. Barnes X, your favorite bullet as I recall, as that bullet takes up all the needed powder space...

The cure for all this with some seems to be accepting a 400 or 450 gr. bullet, but in my mind that is a confession of its down side, it has to have help in the form of lighter bullets!! Should I want a lighter bullet then the 400 or 450 gr. bullet in a .416 seems a better option to me... It has been reported in African Hunter that the new enhanced ammo in .458 Win. has given some Africans high pressure and sticky bolts it appears and that ammo is suspect to be taken off the market or loaded down....

Yes, this is my case laid out, it was the poor design of the beancounters at their best, the day of the short magnum personified. It really should have been a full length belted case to start with, they had the design, but didn't use it., the longer cases and other better options had been around for decades in the form of the 2 460 G&A and Ackleys 45s etc.

Will the .458 Win. work for those who are astute handloaders, use certain bullets of 500 grs. at 2000 to 2100 FPS, and stay away from some factory ammo?, of course it will and it will dispatch any animal on this earth quite nicely...

I have used it quite successfully on Cape Buffalo and assisted on one elephant but it is what it is, a case that wasn't ever big enough for a 500 gr. bullet....

With all respect to a good friend, I humbly disagree with your anology!

Ray, I finally finished bear season and got things closed down for the winter so guess I'll be here for awhile to keep you honest.
What most people in America (who seldom use big rifles on dangerous game) but only rely on writers and hear-say for their opinions don't realize is that the beauty of the original 458 Win was that it fit in original Mauser length actions and was, and still is, a fraction of a second faster to operate than longer cartridges. Fractions of seconds don't sound like much until you have been there. As you know that is the reason for double rifles as well.
I can't say with any authority as to whether the 458 Win is any good or not on buffalo or elephants but on Alaska's great bears it is a superb stopper. As for African game I had long discussions with Finn Aagaard and he claimed the 458 Win was also a superb African round for dangerous game. Charley Haley, the editor of African Hunter magazine, also claims there is nothing wrong with the 458 Win. and many cullers, who shoot thousands of elephants, prefer it over even larger rounds. Even the ledgendary Harry Selby recently traded in his beloved Rigby .416 and bought a standard .458 Win. even though bigger rounds were avaliable.
I do know from an awful lot of testing that while many factory 458 Win loads only reach around 2000 fps (and yes some Rem loads only do 1950) rather than the advertised 2130: I have never tested any original Kynoch ammo from the big boomers that did much better. Original 404 ammo gave virtually the same velocities (1900 -2000 fps) as our current 458 loads, and that with only 400 gr bullets. My favorite 458 Win load is the 400 grain Barnes X (not the 500) and I get 2300 fps from a 20 inch barrel. That certainly beats the original 404 and matches the original 416 Rigby Kynoch ammo which made the name for both of these rounds.
I don't bad mouth any cartridge, as any astute user realizes they all have limitations and everyone is free to choose whatever round they like. There is no doubt that there have been failures with the 458 Win. there have been failures with many rounds including the 458 Lott (which has showing some serious , but not insurmountable, problems) and the 416 Rem.
But I think Finn said it best when he claimed most problems associated with the 458 Win were due more to user error than a fault of the cartridge.

Very interesting comments on this thread.
Phil, I can see why you like the 400 gr load as the 2300 fps bascially mirror's the 416 Rem but out of a shorter action and with a larger diameter bullet. It is really nice to have members such as you and Ray who have shot, or seen shot, more large animals than most of us ever will in three life times.

Snowwolfe,
Heck I have been argueing with Phil and Finn Aaagard for years prior to Finns death over Barnes X bullets and the .458 Win. and probably some other choices, hopefully Phil and I will be at odds over this for many years to come. It makes for good conversation over a camp fire..

Now this business about the .416 Rem and pressure well thats a croc of, oh well lets not go there!!

458win
Do you recover any of the 400gr x's out of brown bear or do most exit?

I would say a little over half of the 400 gr X bullets I have shot into bears exit.

Why bother shooting 400 gr. bullets in a 458? 400 grainers should easily go 2400 fps, which is the 416's cup of tea, whose penetration is better.

The only point to a 458 is shooting 500 gr. bullets, and 2150 fps is easily obtained these days, even in my 22" barrel. Unless that velocity can be achieved it is just another overweight, decreased penetration, and decreased energy .375.

I still don't understand this short-stroking thing. It has never happened to me whether a 458WM or a Lott, or a .222 Rem.! And the time saved between stroking a WM and the Lott is negligible. You had better find a better argument for the WM.

And a 500 gr. 458 bullet at 2300 fps is noticeably more effective than one at 2150 fps, but at 2150 fps it is good enough, usually. It is all a tradeoff. My 458WM at 8.3 lbs is a better rifle for me than my old Lott at 9.3 lbs. But I wouldn't have one unless that bullet would go 2150 fps. Otherwise it is another hopeful.

Hi Will,
I think the thinking there is for the hunting of soft skinned DG (bears), where the large diameter, fast opening 350 and 400 grain .458 bullets are devastating.

Quite simply, the .458 WinMag is the best "stopping cartridge" to use in a standard length M98 without butchering the action into weakness.

2150 fps with 500 grainers is easy, safe and sane in the .458 WinMag.

450 grain North Fork softs, solids, and "cups" make it even better.

While I have only hunted moose and marmots with mine, it worked well on both.

Phil has surely proven it with 400 grain X-Bullets on the Big Bears.

Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson proved it out on over 5000 elephant culled, with 500 grain bullets.

Of course this way of thinking is not so good for sales of the new super magnums ...

Please leave some of those Mausers chambered for .458 WinMag. Don't punch them all out to .458 Lott.

The very thought of a standard M98, best action in the world, whittled into a .458 Lott ...