Looking to buy a big tube for buffalo. I like the pre 64 winchesters but they dont come in 458 lott. Is the lott really that much better. How about recoil?

Hallo Mamba,

I can only recomend you the 458 Lott, you can always load it to the level of a 458 Win and can use both.
Get a 458 CZ 550 and buy or rent a reamer and do it yourself (1 hour) or find a gunsmith who can do it for you. I have transformed quite a few 550
CZ Magnum to Lotts and all but one worked from the beginning.

Regards

Pantanal

Stick to a .458 LOTT. Winchester seems to be the best American make, but rebed the stock. On buffalo or elephant the lott is just so much more effective, and the new Heavy Magnums we have seen for the .458 give pressure problems in the field, in african heat and dust.

Welcome to the board, is the generator you are using pedal power?

Ganyana,
Welcome to the AR Forum. Good to have you here. I�m sure your knowledge will be appreciated.
By the way nice work you do for "African Hunter"..

Get the 458 Lott in the Ruger. It is the best buy with the rib, standing and folding v sights and better wood than Wins. Since todays Wins are basically just junk you can't go wrong with a Ruger Mk II and it usually comes with a nicer trigger than a Win also.

If you have the money to spend on a pre-64 African, then you can afford the Ruger in 458 Lott for about a grand less at least. I have one in 416 Rigby and it's pretty much good to go with maybe some minor tuning. I don't nessesarily agree with the Winchesters are "junk" statement. If they would have made a 416 Rigby I would have bought it for even less monry than the Ruger. jorge

GET THE LOTT
I have tried the hornady factory ammo and gotten excellent results.

From African Hunter, there is a good article at: The .458 Watts / .458 Lott

Whew....Ganyana! We've hit the big time now! I would wlecome your experience.

Welcome, and ignore any abuse you get as it is usually founded around here on lack of experience.

One opposing comment. The Lott is abusive with recoil (my CZ 550 at 9.3 lbs. and 500 gr. at 2300 ft/s, ~5800 ft-lbs). Best to download it for practice.

I am still trying to decide whether the 416 (~5200 ft-lbs) is good enough, as it should have more penetration and is easier on recoil.

Will,
it is difficult to abuse Ganyana.
It simply takes too long to explain to him.
I know,
I have shared many a campfire

500

The Lott offers all the power anyone might need while furnishing maximum magazine capacity in any given rifle, via its' .532" casehead. To be a more specific, I suggest the Barnes 450 grain "X" bullets @ a mild-mannered 2,350 fps for the first shot on heavy game, where feasble. Loaded with RL-7, to a less than full throttle 2,450 fps in my rifle, it proved devastating on buffalo, exhibiting superb penetration. The 450 grain monolithics still provide excellent #'s and constitute an ideal melding with this casing, IMHO. Match up the point of impact with your favorite solid and you're set.

Are the older FN/Browning actions, in 458, long enough to feed the Lott without magazine modification?

Do the 458 CZ 550 conversions require any modifications for feeding?

Pantanal: when you did the modifications to the CZ's, did you replace stocks, custom bed? Any problems with the stocks splitting under recoil?

How many rounds can the 458 Lott converted CZ's hold?

s

Mamba,

458 Lotts are now available from Ruger..They are in gun suppliers in the M77magnum...They were just produced and they are selling like hotcakes..I get up mine tomorrow...$1200 with tax included..

Mike

Freedom is not Free

Ganyana, Welcome to AR and welcome to the kidding..I will be heading up your way next July August with Ian Dodds,PH of Hunters Africa...
Looking forward to shooting the Lott

Mike

Ganyana,

Welcome to AR!

Please drop me an email and I will advise you on the status of the .458 Lott M99/PH rifle project.

jim

Hello Ganyana,
We have not spoke since my Woodleigh failure that you printed...good to have you aboard...Woodleigh has since toughened up those jackets to match todays modern velocity and once again has the best...or was that G. Woods?? old memories don't work.

I would simply punch the 458 pre 64 win out to a 458 Lott and load it to a mild 2200 FPS with a 500 gr. X bullet or Woodligh or even a good flat nose solid from Bridger Bullets, and go Buffalo hunting... that conversion, you could almost do with your fingernail ...

A properly loaded 458 with American powders will work fine on Buffalo, has for years, but there have been a lot of failures with the 458, where there is that much smoke there must be some fire.

As 500 Nitro points out I have a floppie peddling to drive a generator and he gets tied very quickly. IBM needs to build a steam powered computer - hence my replys will be slow and erratic.

The standard F.N action is too short for a propper DG Rifle in .458 Lott. Yes you can strach the mag box to take the rounds but loading is fiddly, live rounds often hang up if you need to quickly eject the soft on top and chamber a solid or whatever.

The recoil from the CZ rifles always feels much more to my shoulder than many other comparable stocks. Shoot a Ruger and a CZ side by side, same weight and Most "averagely" built people will I think agree with me.

I'm confused. Is the Browning Safari, in 458 a standard length FN action?

S

Ganyana,

Welcome to the forum, glad to have you join us.

500nitro,

You are absolutely right, it is IMPOSSIBLE to abuse PHs from Zimbabwe. I have been trying it for the past 20 odd years with my friend Roy Vincent, and never managed to make it.

Walter succeeded where we all failed.

Two years ago, him and Roy were having a go at each other as usual. Walter was trying to shoot some birds, and was not doing a good job of it, so Roy - just trying to be helpful as usual - put teh shootign sticks up for Walter to use with his shotgun to shoot flying birds!

Before Roy could move, Walter fired 4 shots rapidly, with Roy screaming his head off about going deaf!

He is plannign to do something nasty to him next time we go there.

Thanks for the info guys. Seems everybody thinks the 458 winchester is yesterdays news. I did look at a ruger at sci reno and I was quite impressed with it. Looks like a real deal.

I don't think the 458 win mag is yesterdays news it's an excellent round that accounts for many head of dangerous game each year. Thats why it's still the issue caliber of choice for many of africas game officers. Its old and small but is more than enough to do any job it's called for.
as for the lott many people ask a "lott" of questions about loading it down or win mag interchangeability, because it's too much for gun for them and they can't handle it well. so they load it down to win mag velocities and recoil.

jcj:

There is nothing wrong with the 458, it is just that the Lott has more horsepower for those of us that think we need it! I "feel" it has better terminal performance with solids on elephant than the 470/458/etc. class of cartridges.

I don't actually download the Lott for practice, though I should. Even with a straight comb McMillan stock it is hell on recoil.

Luckily when hunting one doesn't notice recoil, but is not for scoped rifles. I can't imagine the amount of blood squirting from a Lott induced scope cut.

Bwanajcj obviously doesn't understand government departments. You get the cheepest available. Most African game and tsetse departments were armed with the Westley -Richards White hunter model .425's untill ammo became unavailable. They were abominations before the Lord to put it mildly. The rest had .404's even when post WWII kynock ammo was so shody you couldn't rely on it for a frontal shot on elephant. The Zim parks Department withdrew all .458 Ammo after repeated failures and A square company loaded us 1000's of rounds that actually worked. Still a .404 with modern ammo is better for any animal except elephant than a .458. On elephant the .404 and the .458 have about equal efect.

No you do not need more power from the Lott, but you do need adequate penetration. I tried to shoot my first elephant with a .458, failed and finished the animal off with a 7x57 using a Kynock solid. Every elephant since then I have used either a 9,3x62 or 7.62 NATO, with far more satisfaction.

Accurate shot placement counts for more than power - unless things go pear shaped. Then a .505 Gibbs feels good. For the averasge American comming to Africa a .375 H&H is probably more than adequate, since I would far rather he shot straight in the first place and I didn't have to take a hand in shooting his animal. It is so nice to have a client where you don't even feel the need to load let alone cover the animal with your rifle and can concentrate on what elese is happening, watching the wind, etc.

Ganyana,

I agree with all that, but the primary reasons I went to the Lott was increased penetration over the 470/458/etc. and the greater likelihood of knocking an elephant out if the brain is barely missed.

but, the 458 was designed to duplicate many of the older express rounds in a modern "short" action cartridge. most people would not hesitate to shoot en elephant with a 470ne or a 450ne, but there seems to be a lot of hesitation when it comes to the 458, it is essentially and ballistically a copy of those other rounds?
all i'm saying is that the 458wm is still a good round and with modern powders and bullets it is far better than the a lot of the old NE rounds people swear by.
I would and will not hesitate to use mine in a couple of years when i go for elephant.

Also for penetration on a recent hunt in west tex, i used the classic texas neck shot on a running auodad sheep bullet penetrated about 40-42" inches traveling mostly through the spine and lodged in neck skin. thats pretty good penetration, all the vertebrae were pretty much pulp. I realze its no elephant but an auodad stem to stern thats pretty good penetration

The CZ stock stinks, it isn�t the recoil that�s so bad but the gun jumps for your face! I�ve shot the Ruger in .416 Rigby and it was very tolerable. The .458 WM was an American effort to put a DG cal. on the market.

Let�s just say that it didn�t turn out so well.

Like I said there is nothing wrong with the 458, the Lott is just more of it.

I was never impressed with the penetration of the 470, though it always got the job done.

One cow I took with a frontal brain shot with the Lott had her head raised way up. The bullet went in about 16" in front of her eyes through the trunk, etc., etc., and the bullet was found only 2" behind her skull. Maybe 24-26" of penetration. It got the job done, but not by that much margin in my opinion.

How some guys claim they have killed elephant with a Texas heart shot is totally baffling to me.

Will,
I don�t claim to understand all this stiuff about sectional density etc but according to many old hunters the .375 H&H and the .416 Rigby have exceptional penetrating power. The .416 Rigby should be able to penetrate an elephant from any angle and hit the vitals -this I�ve read mind you, I have absolutely no experience on elephant from the field. Pondoro Taylor rated the two abovementioned calibers as pretty much the best you could use. Maybe somebody can explain this better.

cewe,

I don't know either. I have only used a 416 once and couldn't do the autopsy afterwards to find out how they worked. The .416 400 gr. at 2400 fps is suppose to have great penetration. I'm going to try it again this year and am hoping for the best. We'll see what happens.

/

Alf,

Goodness, the 458 isn't that bad. Ignoring all the caked powder problems, the 500 gr. is going 2090 fps according to Federal, which is pretty close to 2150 fps for the 470, reportedly.

So a substitute or not, it's brought down bunches of eles.

The powders associated with top .458 Win performance derive no benefit from 26" barrels. The expansion ratio of this caliber does not call for a barrel length longer than 22" with so small a charge weight.

The best .458 Winchester solution, IMHO, is to utilize homogenous 450 grain bullets with powders such as AA 2230. Many rifles produce 2,200+ fps with this loading, shoot very tight and the "SD"/ BC" numbers are still there. So loaded, one has adequate power, excellent penetration and a soft shooting .45 caliber DGR.

/

If I was a real man like Nickudu, I'd be shootin' that 505 Gibbs and wouldn't even bother mentioning that the "Lott is for sissies!"

Will,
Only those who hunt the elephant can be counted among the ranks of true menand that leaves me out $. An 8 pound Lott, with the 450's @ 2450 fps, is of the same recoil class as a 9 pound Gibbs with the 570's @ 2,300 fps. Not a big difference in felt recoil, IMHO, especially in the field.

Nickudu,

I'm not claiming any macho manhood. My 9.3 pound Lott (500 gr at 2300 fps) is brutal off-hand at the range. I don't know how you guys manage the really big-bores.