I realize the .458 is a contentious cartridge, so apologies in advance for possibly stirring things up again. But I started thinking, and you know how dangerous that is...

I've read a few threads about the .404, and it seems like a lot of people are happy with 400 grains at about 2300 fps out of the gate. 416 Taylor fans seem to be happy whether they can throw 400 grains at 2300 or 2400. I take it there's a happy medium between the .375 and the real big stuff in terms of effectiveness/recoil ratio.

If you would be happy with 400 grains of premium bullet at 2300 fps, why not just do it using the .458? Fits in any action, AFAIK has no feed issues, brass always available, no headstamp drama, lots of DG and non-DG bullets available. I would think a 400 grain A-Frame or Northfork would kill the biggest buff around, even at a pedestrian speed.

Any reason this wouldn't work as a "poor man's 404"?

The poor mans 404 is the 404-375
What is better, a few hundred FPS or the best bullet?

A big part of the new bullet theory is that the mono-metal and bore riders- CEB, North fork,Barnes, is that "light for caliber" works. I will bet they your idea in the 458 works great.

SSR

The win mag is an excellent round. No controversy here.

On 400 gr bullets the woodleigh offering isn't very accurate in any of my 45s

The tsx is very accurate

I give mono metal bullets an addition .02 in sd over jacketed

I still prefer a net sd of 0.3 or higher for dangerous game

For north America the rem 405 does the job nicely

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I still prefer a net sd of 0.3 or higher for dangerous game

In the interests of achieving similar recoil to a .416 or .404, how slowly could you throw a 450 grain bullet and still get "ideal" expansion and penetration? Goofing around with an online recoil calculator, I would guess that 450 grain bullet at 2000 fps would generate about the same recoil as 400 grains at 2300 fps, but such a load would actually have less momentum at the muzzle than the lighter bullet...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The poor mans 404 is the 404-375

Might be more accurate to say the 404-375 is the poor right-handed man's 404. Being a southpaw, I can almost guarantee that when I have the time, money, and skill to need a DG rifle, nobody will be making a LH 375-length bolt...

Not true!

I have and use a 375H&H on a Remington action. I bought it used and strongly suspect its an after market barrel but never the less there it is and it works well.

Additionally, down the AR page a little theres a group buy going on for Mauser LH's. Ruger ofcourse makes very fine LH rifles and more than a couple of guys here own and operate Montana lefties to great effect.

To me the used market for lefty rifles is the way to go and I see theres even a lefty Dakota on Gunbroker every once in a while. I like the idea of rebarreling a chosen action to suit ones preferences and I don't believe it has to cost a lot of money. Re boring is something I have no experience with but have been tempted more than once.

CouchTater,

You are correct. We can make our 400gr out penetrate our 450 in a WinMag just because we can drive the 400gr bullet faster as there is more capacity available. The 450gr gives a SD of .305 while the 400gr is below the magical .3 value so often stated for dangerous game work. As my work and others have proven, SD means nothing or should be very far down on the list of priorities when selecting a bullet to use. First should be quality of the bullet and its construction (how are you going to use it). We are a strong believers is fast expansion but with maximum weight retention in any bullet we make. Many 500gr bullets from other manufacturers with a SD of .34 will not come close to the penetration of a 400gr NF. Why? Construction and speed. SD was important when the only bullets available were of the cup and core technology, this is definitely not true today. There are many good selections.

My advice is to ask the manufacturer for their recommendation based upon your cartridge of choice and game you want to hunt. Don't strickly rely on the web or other's opinioins, kind of like doctors. But ask the experts first and 9/10 those people are the ones who make, test, load develop, and shoot them.

Overall, the 400gr is the best all-around weight for the 458 WinMag as it now becomes a round you can use for a 200 yard shot as you can load to 2600fps (if you want some recoil). For strickly DG hunting, I would move up to the 450gr because shots will be close and there are corresponding solids to go along with this weight. But a 400gr NF softpoint will do good if you happen to find yourself in a tight spot that you were not expecting.

Regards,
John
North Fork Technologies
www.northforkbullets.com

450 Swifts and NF's work great in my 458WM. They are my preferred option(softs) and I have no problem driving them @ 2270 FPS. Very accurate! I believe a 450 TSX is still a bit long (works good in a Lott). A 400 TSX might be a good option.

On the 458 Win Mag I will agree with John of North Fork's post.

I have used their 450gr FP Solid on elephants, and giraffe, and the Cup Point Solid on Giraffe, along with the traditional 480gr Woodleigh Solids.

The 450 FP solids give quite a bit more penetration, and on body shots the Cup points make a bigger hole.

With the 458 I would use the 450gr NF bullets in Africa, easier to get similar impact points between softsw and solids.

But for North America the 400gr NF Soft, elevates the 458 Win Mag, and the 458 Lott, for that matter, to a whole new level.

No complaints from me on the 400gr Woodleighs in a 458 WM. I would think though that they are a bit soft for the thicker skinned game.

400gr Softpoint monos work very well in a 458WM. Very reliable too. If a solid is required, use a 450gr FN.

See a softpoint report.

I suppose you should know I am and have always been partial to 458 caliber, unless I can have a .500! HEH........

CouchTater

quote:

I would think a 400 grain A-Frame or Northfork would kill the biggest buff around, even at a pedestrian speed.

I have shot buffalo with a 458 Winchester and a 400 Swift A Frame before. Running 2325 fps in one of my 22 inch guns. Yes, it did the job, found the bullet on the far side of the hide! No bone hit other than a rib. This was back in the day, I was not hunting buffalo, hunting lion, but the bullet worked fine. I would rather have had a 450 Swift. Dead is dead however.

Between us and the fencepost, I would have been even better off with the 400 North Fork Premium. Why you say! The North Fork Premium Soft Point does not realize that it is a "Conventional" soft. No one has told it that, so don't say anything where they might listen in. Here is the deal, every single Conventional expanding bullet penetrates less with more velocity. Faster it goes, less penetration it gets. This includes the Barnes TSX also. Swift, Woodleighs, Hornady, all of them. The one exception is the North Fork Premium Soft--The faster you drive it, the deeper it goes. We have proven it time and again. Other conventionals tend to ball up with velocity, North Forks tend to just hold their own, not ball up, penetrate deeper. Rather "UnConventional" of them, to be a conventional soft. Of course extra velocity means extra trauma, and with no loss of penetration. All Plus in my book. I would have loved to have that 400 North Fork back then in the day! I had no failures, but I like "Extreme Success" over just adequate myself.

Very Well said John from North Fork! I concur 100%.

quote:

As my work and others have proven, SD means nothing or should be very far down on the list of priorities when selecting a bullet to use. First should be quality of the bullet and its construction (how are you going to use it). We are a strong believers is fast expansion but with maximum weight retention in any bullet we make. Many 500gr bullets from other manufacturers with a SD of .34 will not come close to the penetration of a 400gr NF. Why? Construction and speed. SD was important when the only bullets available were of the cup and core technology, this is definitely not true today.

Various NonCons out there within the weight range of 400 or so grains will show you yet another trick as well. There are also some solids in the 400 gr weight range that will perform far better than heavier older style or designed bullets of the past.

While it is true, a 400 gr 458 caliber of today is magical compared to years past. Still, going for the heavies, in particular elephant, opt for a 450 Solid of proper design, North Fork, CEB and such. You do have that choice, so choose proper.

steph123

The 400 Woodleigh is way too soft for heavy, and it's too soft for thin as well if your velocity starts much above 2100 fps. Slow it down to 2100 fps at the muzzle and penetration starts to increase substantially. Way back when, I shot an impala up the rear with a 400 Woodleigh started at 2500 fps, impala was at 140 yds, dead center Texas Heart shot, bullet could not make it into the vitals, found it way short of vitals, flat like a silver dollar. Oh it had a profound effect on the poor animal, it could not recover, but it was sad and had to be finished, and it did not want to give up. A lesson learned, pay attention to the test work, as it did the same in the test work. I am fortunate that I did not have to use that bullet on anything more substantial, say lion for instance. I was later going to use that bullet on bear in Russia, the distance was going to be very close, I did choose the Woodleigh for this mission, but I also slowed it down to 2100 fps to increase penetration, while still delivering the proper amount of trauma. As it so happens the trip was canceled from the Russian side 2 days before leaving, so I never got to try it on the bear.

I have in the past used a lot of 400 or so gr bullets in 458 caliber, all with success. Todays bullets are better than ever, and will give you that "Extreme Success" I like even better.

Michael

Michael, not arguing with you but I have shot a few elk cows with the 400gr Woodleigh and it did a phenomenal job of putting them down. Never recovered a bullet as they passed through even though they were quartering shots. I loaded them to about 2350 fps cause that was what was accurate in my rifle. I certainly wouldn't use the 400gr Woodleigh for buffalo or such!

Having said that I much prefer my 375 as it doesn't beat me up like the 458 did.

How do you find the POI of 400 grain bullets at higher velocities, as compared with 450s?

I worked up some 350 grain TSX loads in my .458 Winchester. No problem to get 2750 and no pressure. The computer said they'd get 3000 fp of energy at 300 yards. The problem was they shot 7" LOWER THAN 450s at 100 yards. I had hoped that they would shoot a few inches higher so I could use them at longer ranges without changing the sights. I would have had to lower the MV to 2300 or so to get an acceptable POI.

Indy

In my 458's and in my 45/70's, lighter bullets have always shot lower.
In the 45/70 using the same powder charge there was a 9" difference between 300gr and 400 gr bullets, if I remember correctly.

My heavy load is with the 400 gr Swift, at about 2250 or 2300 fps. I just don't need more than that. I have been shooting some of the 405gr soft flat nose at reduced velocity, just for fun, and deer or hog hunting.

I also like the Speer 350gr and Hornady 350gr, either of which I would trust for bear or moose.

Two of the most accurate bullets are the Barnes 350gr and the 300gr SOCOM. I drive the 350gr fast and stout, and the 300gr at about 2000fps.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
My heavy load is with the 400 gr Swift, at about 2250 or 2300 fps. I just don't need more than that. I have been shooting some of the 405gr soft flat nose at reduced velocity, just for fun, and deer or hog hunting.

That's just the sort of thing I had in mind. A 400 grain super-premium for DG, and a 45-70 bullet for medium & large non-DG game. Heck, throw in gas-checked cast bullets for high-volume plinking. Doesn't handle the proverbial elk shot across a county and a half, but that's a much easier problem to solve.

You can get some decent accuracy from both the 350 Hornady and 405 Remington using 75grs of RL-15 in each. I seat them out a bit but they gave me MOA at around 2100 fps. Though the charge is a full one, the velocity is moderate (and the recoil) because the powder is somewhat slow for those lighter bullets. Use H4198 if you want the most steam. Then any of the medium-fast powders will do a good job as well: AA2015; RL-7, etc.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

As big bore handgun shooters know, dropping pressure lessens recoil as well as lighter bullets. A 250 gr 45 Colt at 1200 fps has about 10,000 psi less pressure than a 250 gr 44 mag at the same speed, and felt recoil is definitely less in the Colt.

A 400 gr 458 WM can give 2300 fps with only 38,000 psi, which should have considerably less recoil than a 500 grainer at 2100, but with premium bullet will still kill like hell.

I'm plinking with these 400gr Speers with a case full of H4895 for around 2300. Think I'll plunk one into water & see how it opens. The 300gr Barnes will run around 2700 & aught to be a hoot in water

600, what dies and press are you using? I dont see any of the straight case "bulge" that you usually see with 458 wm loads.

Dean
Hornady New Dimension dies on a vintage 70's Pacific 07 press. Plus these are from virgin Hornady brass which is a little tight as the sizer die hardly touches the cases. It shows up in case capacity on these first loads. Can't get as much powder in these new cases.