http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetr2.htm

aparently big bores over 500 dont fare too well for elephant hunting with this theory.

also round nose bullets are obsolete

how did your elephants respond with mega bores?

Well now, I guess someone had better tell the thousands upon thousands of African animals taken with .500 or larger catridges, that they shouldn't be dead after all and to get up and start running around again!!

good thing those pachederms dont understand quantum physics or they would.

I think lesser penetration of the 600Nitro etc... has been well documented. Begs the question just how much do you need after you've exited the other side??
Cheers...
Con

I see that Norbert has approximated my Iron Buffalo test medium for solid bullets, by using alternating particle board and plastic water jugs. He is a smart man. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I am flattered.

PI, BSI, whatever, it's all good.

Recipe for failure: 600 NE and Round Nose Solid.

Who around here has a better theory?

Thank you!!!!

Going Ele hunting soon. I was going to use my 470 with 500gr @ 2150 (penetration value = 92) but NOW I'll use my wife's 7x57 with 170gr @ 2400 (penetration value = 110). Makes me feel so much better.

Once you shoot a few elephants with the 470 you will find it ain't that whippy!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


aparently big bores over 500 dont fare too well for elephant hunting with this theory.

I have gotten better penetration with the .500 NE and .505 Gibbs than with the .375 H&H. And I got marginally better penetration with the .585 nyati than the .375 H&H.

Wow! I just knew the ol .600OK would not have enough penetration on DG. Lets see 6ft or sojust may not be enough. Back to the drawing boards for me.! Damn thats good science presented here.-Rob

So hunting DG is like shooting milk jugs? Funny, I thought it'd be more challenging than that?

I'll cry . I'll take 400gr in my 404jeffery over 300gr in a 375h&h for DG any day.

Using that chart a 4 bore and a 22 hornet are almost the same

quote:

Using that chart a 4 bore and a 22 hornet are almost the same

The same applies to the following

quote:

Tumbling and veering occurs only in water resp. aqueous media,( )

Velocity doesn´t compensate for weight,
(maybe not fully, but it makes a hell of a difference with a well constructed bullet )
Higher SD performs better. (Plain !!!)

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetr2.htm

aparently big bores over 500 dont fare too well for elephant hunting with this theory.

also round nose bullets are obsolete

how did your elephants respond with mega bores?

The bigger bores probably fared better then the poor tracker who had to carry that piece of crap 600NE double.

The bluff nose solids have always been obsolete, we just didn't know till lately.

IMO, anything bigger than a 577NE is nothing more than a "LOOK AT ME!" exercise in excess, and not needed for any reason other than an ego booster. In most cases the 577NE is not even needed, and the 500NE 3" will do anything a man standing on his hind legs needs done!
.........................

Im looking foreward to try my soon upcomming
.333 Jeffery for penetration..300 grain bullet at 2280 Ft/sec...should not be all that bad.

I wonder if i one day could talk an african PH
into shoot a cow elephant with my .333 jeffery??

Harry Selby stated in an artical that the .318Westley Richards penetrated better then a .416 Rigby...

Boomy,

It is BS. The 500s will easily out penetrate the 30-06 and even the 300 Winnie. This is simply another case of over simplified mathematical models not correlating AT ALL with reality.

It appears to me that this formula gives too much weight to velocity and treats bullet diameter as a negative rather than a positive. I can be wrong so these are just my observations.


465H&H

Penetration is a strange thing. With math all you need is velocity. In real life weight is really important and speed do not seem to be the ultimate remedy. Rather contrary it looks that speed over a certain point tends to molest the bullet so much that it loses its penetration ability.
The form of a bullet is also critical and to me it seems like the flat based and "cutting" flat head bullets are the optimal shaped bullets for penetration. GS Custom uses those with success.
I think the point with a flat head has something to do with "super-cavitation" witch is a phenomenon used to make torpedoes "fly" through water in speed well over 200Mph.

PI does indeed give too much importance to velocity.

The BSI, which is Taylor K.O. weighted by sectional density, is a better penetration AND Whomp index.

Live tissue and water are reactive media, having greater resistance or getting "harder" as velocity of the impacting projectile go up.

My Iron Buffalo tests with plywood and water gave no disadvantage to larger calibers, nor any advantage to velocities over 2100 fps.

Recipe for success: 600 NE with Flat nose solid with SD of .300 or greater ... and a fast twist. ... but only if the gunbearer can keep up.

Oh yes, It must be the fast twist on the .600Ok that I was forgetting about that delivers that poor penetration. God- even ScottS gets this one right. BS.
I know this is politically incorrect of me, but wouldn't it be nice if the people who post this crap actually shot a big bore ( over a 45-70) and actually hunted DG with them before posting these drug induced facts?
This is fast becoming idiotic.-Rob

The most basic Physics relationship in mechanics is F=ma. Most all equations are derived from this one. It means the Force is equal to the mass times the accelleration. The rub is determining the accelleration (would be negative for a projectile moving through a medium).

The force will vary with the medium and the velocity, and will vary with each instant in time. So this is a formidable mathematical problem that has no solution in common mathematical functions. However simulation might be possible if the reaction of the media to the projectile could be figured out. The velocity might let it decellerate (penetrate) a little longer, but I am betting that the force on the projectile will increase by the square of the velocity.

This is a case of a well designed experiment will illustrate more that 10,000 opinions.

Thank God I saw this before I made the terrible mistake of taking My 500 NE to Africa with the intent of hunting Elephant. I could have gotten Myself killed. Also it's going to be so much easier to carry a 7X57 than that heavy double.

I guess I'll also have some double ended wadcutter solids made up so the 7mm will penetrate better. Probably also load it pretty hot (like 175gr. at 3400 fps) since I won't need more that one good shot and should have plenty of time to pound the bolt open for the next shot. Not that I'd likely need it with kind of penetration this combination should give Me.

One question though, how much will I have to worry about other animals behind the one I'm targeting since the bullet will probably exit even on full length shots?

And I guess a 45-70 wouldn't be such a bad idea to have as a backup just in case of a charge, yes?

Figures lie and liars figure. This guy is really handicapping weight and momemtum.

A 200 pound man going 10 miles per hour can be stopped with a hell of a lot less force than my F250 diesel going 10 miles per hour. Decelleration is greater with lighter objects as well.

Bullets do NOT accelerate. They are in a steady state of decelleration from the muzzle.

You can hit targets with a 50 BMG in excess of 1500 yards. Care to try that with a 22 hornet?

Not sure where his math went astray, but astray it has gone.

the theory is more about penetration than stopper affect.

similar sd's here penetrate the same at similar velocities is what is the common thread in this theory. bell killed elephants with a 7x57 but it was not a stopper. his theory is go medium bore and go fast from what i gather like the 416 rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the theory is more about penetration than stopper affect.

similar sd's here penetrate the same at similar velocities is what is the common thread in this theory. bell killed elephants with a 7x57 but it was not a stopper. his theory is go medium bore and go fast from what i gather like the 416 rigby.

If that is truth, I wonder about all the misguided PHs in Zim that I know who have been using one of the 416s and want to upgrade to a 470 or 500 double. Looks like they need some re-education.

465H&H

Gee, where is all the experience of the pile-on guys? Norbert has shot a hell of a lot more eles than anyone else around here.

Huh? Huh?

The .264 Win Mag launching 160 grain bullets at 2800 to 2900 fps must be one of the greatest elephant cartridges of all time!

Matt V.

Will,

This is the internet!

What a howl. Good example of what happens when a drug addict finds the internet.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Seems like the PI (velocity) index is just too one dimensional. It doesn't alow for the stopping phenonena like the BSI index.

Stories about 600 NE bullets at 1700 ft/sec not stopping elephant can be countered with stories by Ian Nyschens of .375 H & H bullets not keeping the elephants down on the frontal brain shots. My 500 AHR at 2350 ft/sec worked just fine on several elephant (frontal brain) and one bullet did travel 53 inches, so much for the obsolete FMJ Woodleighs at 570 gr.

However, when one trots out Bell's record with light rifle calibers, you have to be aware that he depended mostly on the side brain shot, 18-20 inches required peneration at most, and he was an expert shot and knew elephant anatomy very well. Another thing, he hunted easier eles, in savanah, not thick jesse.

I don't discount the theory behind the PI index, but feel that even larger calibers 585 and 600 can be made to penetrate deeper with high section density solids and higher velocity. A 600 OK at 2300 ft/sec with 900 gr FMJ should make a potent bush gun, both with enough penetration to kill the elephant with a frontal brain shot (approx 30 inches required penetration) and stopping power if you miss.

Hope others can post some success with large caliber bullets (.510 and above)for frontal brain shots as I hope to do some more hunting in the future.

Dak

Everyone is trying to compare apples and oranges.

Of course if you drive the big caliber bullets fast enough they have great penetration. Duh.

And just because the relative penetration of big, slow moving solids is rather poor, it doesn't mean they don't have great knockdown power.

quote:

Norbert has shot a hell of a lot more eles than anyone else around here.

Maybe all that recoil has addled his brain. Just what university is it that requires 50 elephant kills for a degree in physics?

Does he also sell carbon credits to offset global warming?

This one scores high on PI, TKO or BSI:

.510 cal/570-grain GSC FN at 2405 fps from a 1:10" twist

It will repeatably enter the dung-end and come out of the tongue-end of a bison.

It should be suitable for Texas Heart Shots on elephant.

It can be built as a portable rifle that will not aggravate the hernia.

Anything more is BORE ENVY. Less may be better.

I have no use for a 500 or larger, they are too heavy for this old man to carry, kick too much for my acheing shoulders and neck..

Will they kill elephant, you better believe it and in fact I consider the .600 N.E. one of the ultimate elephant guns, and those who condem it are folks that believe what they read, it will kill anything on either end. The .577 is awesome in the kill big stuff dept, as are any of the big 500s.

However this does not mean a 375, 416, 404 or .470 will not, they will kill elephants with abandon IMO, and with a lot less blast and recoil..the will stop charges and kill the elephant...The one thing they are not as likely to do is turn an elephant in charge mode, maybe.

I am not sold on the fact that a big bore near the brain will stun an elephant unless it grazes the brain itself, but there are a lot of pros and cons on that subject, and please don't quote me instances of one you shot that was stunned, one of any instance is of little or no valid information IMO....

I don't know, probably never will.....

quote:

from the posted link:
"Penetration Index smaller than 85: doubtful, not recommended for headshots on elephant."

".470 NE PI = 84"
".577 NE PI = 82"

A "treatise" in fantasy indeed.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Oh gee, another thread here on the AR Big Bore forum.

Keith

Sorry- Less is never MORE. Keep dreaming!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Norbert has shot a hell of a lot more eles than anyone else around here.

Maybe all that recoil has addled his brain. Just what university is it that requires 50 elephant kills for a degree in physics?

Does he also sell carbon credits to offset global warming?

Physics or whatever bla bla bla

Art Alphin is the one who came up with the penetration index, not Norbert.