Jeff,

It's my bad for bringing it to this thread - I did and do believe it is pertinent to the 'parallel-sided free-bore' issues discussed in this thread...

Jim
I am teasing rip for his snotty comments prior. He is a big boy and can Certainly give it. T
I think he can take it, in the same spirit he gave it

10-4

quote:

Originally posted by Brando:
I need to stop messing around and get my 500AccRel put together...

Got all the stuff to do it, just been lazy.

Bando, yes,

by all means please put your 500 together. This thread is waiting for some hard data on the new short-throated version. Buffalo should have something soon. It sounds like his new barrel has been fitted and test fired.

Some questions arise.
What throat length are you using?
Is your barrel already finished?
Who did it?
Did you have your own reamer made?

Hey Tanz, Any word on your re-barrel job?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Hey Tanz, Any word on your re-barrel job?

Not a peep. I sent an email at the beginning of Oct., Nov., and Dec. hoping to get a commitment to finish in December. It didn't happen. I haven't written in the new year because I'm already out of country, again. I've been contemplating another email, but I figure they already know I'm waiting for some news. What I don't understand is how Ron got TWO .510 barrels out of them during this time. Possibly it was fast-tracked because they didn't have to do any follow-up gunsmithing.

Meanwhile, I am very curious to hear how Buffalo is making out with his new rig. Load information, powders, accuracy, pressure, and cases, would all be great to hear about.

Yep barrels only, either pull off shelf or run through manufacturing process and send out the door. The need for them to do the gunsmithing work will slow the process as the gunsmith is now the time restrictive point regardless of whether the barrel was pulled off the shelf or run through the manufacturing process...

Jeff you have a PM...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Seen on a different thread (TREX brass):

quote:

Buffalo wrote
...
I must admit that I am a lot more tempted to carry my 500 AccRel at 8 Ibs any day.. I just loaded the .510" new design 600 grs North Fork FPS to 2345 fps average and that combo WORKS.

Congratulations. It's shooting.
It's what we've been waiting for over half a year.

We look forward to some pictures and an update on all the details, accuracy, loads, etc.

buffalo,

Can you give us update regarding the re-barrel with the shorter freebore 500 AR Hatting? Any abrading issues with brass or copper monometal bullets? How's the accuracy with monometal bullets? Etc...

Thanks,

Hatting

It was good to see you on the Big Bore forum.

Any updates on the 500 AccRel Hatting-Nyati would be most welcome.

I'm still waiting on McGowen for my rebarreled short throat.

Tanz

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Jim
I am teasing rip for his snotty comments prior. He is a big boy and can Certainly give it. T
I think he can take it, in the same spirit he gave it

A Dragnet-Star Trek-Snotty comment:

Just the facts, Mam ... Beam me up, Snotty!

i reckon i overestimated the gentleman in question

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i reckon i overestimated the gentleman in question

I reckon you "misunderestimated" me then.
Glad you have seen the light on a couple of things.

Cheers!



50-year Gunnut: THERE IS NO CURE

Tant-ta-ta-taaaaa !

Finally a little progress to report.

My newly barrelled rifle with the .255" parallel-freebore throat has arrived,
and today some USA-produced GSCustom bullets arrived.

The 450 grain HV GSCustom bullets look wonderful and devastating. Pretty close to an optimum copper bullet in .510". The front sealing band is still .512" and the four very thin little following bands are .511".

All I need now is some time to re-bed the stock for the new barrel with its barrel lug, load up some GSC's, CEB 350 grains, and 570 grain TSX's and go to the range. Maybe within the next two weeks.

that's fantastic ... i would imagine, as long as you arent seating over 3.35, you MIGHT not see any difference in loads.. milsurps out long? yeah, might be an issue...

lets see!

rifle is now in Mr Buffalo´s hands ( Ulrik ;o) and he will do some testing
I know that he has tried some of he's old ammo
in the old barrel 2300f/s
in the new barrel 2340 f/s
loadet with
CEB and 95grs VVn530
and hornady 570grs DGS
2330 in the old barrel
2386 in the new barrel

Test Regards
Hatting ;o)

quote:

Originally posted by hatting:
rifle is now in Mr Buffalo´s hands ( Ulrik ;o) and he will do some testing
I know that he has tried some of he's old ammo
in the old barrel 2300f/s
in the new barrel 2340 f/s
loadet with
CEB and 95grs VVn530
and hornady 570grs DGS
2330 in the old barrel
2386 in the new barrel

Test Regards
Hatting ;o)

Thanks for the 'heads-up' Hatting. Now we await Ulrik's test results!

same length barrel and twist? maker? speed aint free... max loads will need to be reduced, i think

I figure that the 500 AccRel is good for at least 7000 ftlbs. RIP listed some non-max loads in a "49-10" at over 7000 ftlbs and that cartridge is 1 calibre less with the same basic capacity and throat.

Only tested a few, only for pressure/vel... Need to recover some bullets for inspection now..
Loads for previous barrel give 30-40 fps more in new barrel. New barrel is a Lothar Walther 21" barrel with 1-10" twist (same length/twist as previous barrel)
Have tried to increase loads to reach max, and I get the 600 grs North Fork up to 2425 fps (around 7700 ftIbs energy), no pressure signs.. - but must be fairly hot... Nice !!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hatting:
Today I play a little with Mr. Buffalo
A.L.Larsen bullet cal .510 weight 580Grs
the little Ruger in Cal.500AR short Throat
the rifel threw the bullet out with 2395 f/s without pressure signs: o)
and without the projectile was stripped
Mr. buffalo was happy ;o) and me too

Congratulations gentlemen!

wow! color me amazed

Buffalo,

I am very pleased with tests, both for pressure and the riflings. Thank you for posting.

This cartridge, the 500 Accurate Reloading Nyati (Short Throat), is really quite something. It is beyond the factory loads of any of the big 500 cartridges, whether the 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs, or 500 NE.

To me, it seems that it has all the capacity that a hunter can practially use at .510" and packs it neatly in a little standard length action.

If you get a chance, would you be able to give Cartridge Overall Length measurements, too? I assume that the bullets are not being seated excessively out front in order to artificially create more capacity.

No.. COL is 3.7"

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
No.. COL is 3.7"

Well, a COL of 3.7" is a long-length cartridge. A medium/standard length is 3.35 to 3.4". In my unmodified Ruger Hawkeye I need to keep the cartridge to 3.4", which would considerably raise pressures. So I would expect that the max loads for the 500 AccR may end up between 7000 and 7700 ft.lb.

Sorry.... 3,37" was what I should have typed... I was too fast.. Sorry.... I too have build my rifle on the Ruger Hawkeye action, so 3,4" is max COL. But no problem getting 2400 fps at 3,35 - 3,37" COL...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Sorry.... 3,37" was what I should have typed... I was too fast.. Sorry.... I too have build my rifle on the Ruger Hawkeye action, so 3,4" is max COL. But no problem getting 2400 fps at 3,35 - 3,37" COL...

Congradulations; you've certainly reached your goal with this chambering. Based upon Ron's 49-10 testing, I imagine your rifle will be just as accurate - presuming use of high quality bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Sorry.... 3,37" was what I should have typed... I was too fast.. Sorry.... I too have build my rifle on the Ruger Hawkeye action, so 3,4" is max COL. But no problem getting 2400 fps at 3,35 - 3,37" COL...

Congradulations; you've certainly reached your goal with this chambering. Based upon Ron's 49-10 testing, I imagine your rifle will be just as accurate - presuming use of high quality bullets.

Aye.

And Ron with the 500 Bateleur can use any length box from 3.4" to 3.8".

today I will provide some more newspapers
to Mr. buffalo: o)
so he can test some more
500 AR with some 580grs bullets: o)
last test showed that the cartridge supplied 10025 joules at the muzzle

Right now I am finally scheduled to get in a first incremental pressure test with loads in the new 500 "Nyati" (500 Accurate Relodaing Nyati with .25" parallel-freebore throat)

As I look at bullets and loads, I am struck that the 450 grain GSCustom HV may be close to the perfect bullet in .510" when one considers delivery system along with terminal ballistics.

It will be interesting to see how secret coated driving bands (non-moly) work in the new rifle. The weight is a very nicely balanced compromise for allowing longrange velocity with a decent BC along with guaranteed deep penetration and substantial bullet weight for a buffalo.

Here are some pictures of the 500 AccRel Nyati
along with some special points of interest

Pictures were taken with MacBook Air, so stability and quality are not best but the general ideas are illustrated.

1. The rifle, a converted Ruger Alaskan with the Hogue stock. Barrel is McGowen SS, 22" with a black barrel band front sight. Scope is a Nikon Slughunter, 1.65-5 power with 5" eyerelief throughout.



2. Same rifle is pictured below from the muzzle


3. muzzle with three loaded rounds, two 450 gn GSC HV, and one 350 gn CEB




4. magazine for Ruger with JB-Weld steel fixing a washer to strengthen the magazine and to take up space so that the magazine doesn't slam against the magazine lug and get bashed in.




5. .510" bullets L2R (actually in mirrored format from true L2R): 570 Barnes TSX, 350 CEB HP, 570 CEB FN solid, 510grain GSC FN solid all copper with GSC coating, 450 GSC HV all copper with GSC coating. This 450 GSC HV looks like it has been slightly remodeled from the older version with a boattail added. It should have a slightly better BC than the published .328.



6. Same bullets as in six but a different picture and showing true L2R direction



7. Six bullets in mirrored order, with 535 grain Woodleigh added.



8. Integral barrel lug, .183" deep on the face. The view is upside down in order to see the barrel lug cut that engages a bedding setup in the forearm of the stock. At the far right is the standard Ruger recoil lug. In the center, about 5" in from of the main recoil lug is the barrel lug.



9. Barrel lug bedding on the Hogue Ruger Alaskan stock. The dark thin half ellipse is the bedding point. The straight line is a higher point and the round shadow on its left is the depth of the lug bedding .183". The roundness matches the round arc of the barrel lug island which was cut for the lug. The 1/6" should be enough and it is without any restraining screw. We'll see if this works for accuaracy. If not, I have a Boyd's laminated stock as backup and we can also tap the barrel lug island and add a restraining screw to the forearem. I am hoping that a restraining screw is unnecessary.
(The contact with the barrel is shiny gray in the picture. The small white area next to the black ellipse is a shiny flat area in the bedding. However, the large white area between the barrel lug bedding and the recoil lug pillar in the stock is where the bedding reinforcement has been relieved and sanded down so that it does not make contact with the barrel.That whole area was reinforced so that the recoil would not rip out the barrel lug bedding. There are threaded steel rods in that bedding area, too.



Well, now we need to do some preliminary shooting for load development and chrono.

It's looking good Tanz.

well, I spent a nice day at the range, and learned alot of things, but not enough to know how to prepare the rifle and loads for Africa, yet.


First thing of interest is that I used two ProChrony chronographs. They were consistent but one read fps about 35fps more.

For example, one test of three cartridges of H335, 108 grains, and the GSC 450 HV produced an average of 2645 by one ProChrony, but the ProChrony a foot or so closer to the muzzle averaged 2608 fps.

That would have been a great load if it were the H4895 Extreme. I was able to squish 108 grain of H4895 into a case but with great, repeated pressure and I was afraid of bulging the case. The H4895 is not a sustainable, reliable load at 108 grains, since I would not trust it to stay in storage without a risk of bullet movement. In any case it achieved 2631fps by the fast chrono and 2591 by the slow chrono, a result that was duplicated by both chronos for one of the H335 rounds with 108 grains. So 108 grains of H335 works, and 108 grains of H4895 would have worked if it fit in the case with only reasonable compression.

Anyway, 2600-2650 was my target velocity, so on that front things were successful. I will just need to wait until I can find some H322 or Benchmark in order to duplicate the velocity without an extremely compressed load and in a Hodgdon extreme powder.

I should add that I am very impressed with the GSC HV. I like the shape and weight, and the thin little driving bands should mean that pressure will not be a problem. As a monolithic, penetration should be great.

so far, I am also pleased with the epoxy-bedding of the barrel-lug. It looks like the 1/6" lug is using its epoxy contact point well. Or is that the cause of the following instability or potential lack of accuracy?

Now on to a couple of problems that are tied to the Ruger platform.

Since this was a new barrel, the scope needed to be resighted. Several of the first shots were with the 570 grain TSX and shots were all over while I reeled her in. The Nikon Slughunter was tracking fairly well. I did check and retightened the scope screws during the shooting. However, indications point to the TSX doing about a 4"+ group, which made stepping up charge weights rather inconsistent. At the end I shot a 3-group of H335 96-97-98 grains with the 570 gn TSX. The group was a vertical spread of about 4". The 96gn was on top at 2225fps, then the 98gn at 2293fps, and the 97 gn on the bottom at 2277fps.

The 450 gn. GSC-HV, 104 gn to 108, was less volatile and the charge weights moved in the same direction, perhaps accidentally, since the accuracy of this rifle/platform has not been determined.

Anyway, I have questions about whether the Hogue stock is too flexy for a 6000-7000 ftlb cartridge? Should I put on the Boyd's laminate stock?


I am in the process of bedding the Boyds. At the moment the first layer for the forearm barrel lug is in place. Two threaded rods and an epoxy ridge to dam-up second stage flow toward the muzzle is in place:

You can see the expoxied bolts ahead of the center connection wood at the end of where the receiver would be.

Well, after this stock is bedded I will have a couple of options to consider.
a. do I shoot it as is, with the thin little 1/2" rubber butt?
b. what about checkering? The stock is smooth. Will that lead to gripping problems? See the next problem, the Ruger 'bolt handle thump'.

Probably half or more of the shots fired ended in pain in my shooting finger as the Ruger bolt came back in recoil and slammed the first bone of the finger or side of the knuckle. Here is a picture showing some swelling of the right hand vs. left.

The right hand is probably bigger to begin with so the picture may not be the best representative.

In any case after 13 round I needed to call an end to 500 ARNyati shooting because the trigger finger was tender. The shoulder was fine, despite this being the first shooting in seven months. All in all, I like this little 500 cartridge. I was not able to shoot the CEB series, though I expect that those light bullets will almost certainly need H322 powder for optimum velocity/accuracy.

How can this finger thump be corrected? I was trying to keep my grip tight. Now that I am home and looking at the rifle I am wondering if I can rotate my grip a little to the right to lower the knuckle and trigger finger from the onslaught on that Ruger bolt. The bolt angles rearward, so that I wonder if I will need to have the bolt 'straightened'? I don't want to do such a thing so maybe I'll try another day with a rotated grip. At least several of today's shot did not smack the finger.

So will the Boyds stock work for this 500ARNyati without checkering? I can at least try the right rotational grip idea. If it needs checking, I might try it myself, but I am tempted to contactd Boyds and see about ordering their custom laser checkering as ultimately more efficient.

So the good news: The GSC-Hv is on target for velocity and the forearm barrel-lug bedding appears solid.

To be resolved:
a. The accuracy of the rifle.
b. The accuracy of the Hogue stock
c. The accuracy of the Boyds stock
d. optimum loads for the CEB and GSC bullets.

PS: while at the range I also tested some loads with my wife for the 243 and 270. A nice little group of 1.7" inches at 200 yards with the new 129 Barnes LRX[TTSX with improved BC] (the group was more horizontal than vertical in a mildly gusty wind.) So the 270 has some promising new loads and this also keeps me clean, letting the 500 trigger 'break' while rock steady on target. No called movement. The meanandering shots and large groups were not flinch, but yet to be resolved issues for this particular 500ARNyati. Actually, except for the finger issue the rifle is remarkably comfortable to shoot. Not too different from the ol' 416.

Suggestions are welcomed, of course. Is there such a thing as a sorbythane knuckle protector?

On to more thoughts and plans with general relevance for those using the 500 AR Nyati.

I might experiment around 104-106 grains of H4895 with the GSC bullet to see if an accurate load lurks there. It means giving up 100fps but that would be little to pay if it were accurate. 106 still seemed a reasonable compression, so I wouldn't be worried about the powder and it would be using H4895 to its reasonable limit.


As for feelings the day after:
Today feels normal after a first shooting.

It reminds me of picking up a guitar after letting the callouses go. The first week always hurts the hand. In this case its bruising of the shoulder. Yes, the shoulder is a little tender today, but if I were in TZ I'd enjoy the hunting. Of more concern is the finger. I'm not sure if it will be ready by weekend. We'll see.
It would be fine if I knew it wouldn't get whacked again. Why did Ruger tuck the bolt knob back toward the shooters knuckle?

Five of the loads were added to AmmoGuide

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...fNlGEXHPPJ&catid=856

Nice magazine box front wall reinforcement, we should all do that to all sheetmetal boxes.

Maybe it is the tight grip curve (shape) of the Hogue stock that is getting your index finger too close to the bolt handle?
I have never been smacked on the index finger by a Ruger or any bolt action,
but I refuse to use the Hogue stocks simply because I don't like the feel of a rubberized rifle stock. Nasty!!!!
And only aluminum pillars, no bedding block.

Maybe you need a more open grip shape on the stock, with checkering,
and a deathgrip on the rifle with both hands, except for a relaxed trigger finger.
Takes practice.

Here is a Boyd's laminated stock with checkering.
It has held up well:



You might notice the integral lug on the barrel for my rear sight and secondary recoil lug, similar to yours.
Harry McGowen made that barrel as one of the last he and son did before selling all the machinery to the Montana folks.

Benchmark burn rate lies between the faster H322 (extruded) and the slower H335 (ball) and H4895.
115 grains of Benchmark made the 450-grainer go 2835 fps in a 25" barreled 500 mbogo.
I used 105 grains of benchmark and 5 grains of Dacron filler packed in to give 2654 fps and better accuracy in the 500 Mbogo with the GSC 450-grain HV (old model).

I really think you will do better with the faster pair of the above 4 powders: H332 and Benchmark.

The "open"grip that might protect trigger finger from bolt handle battering:

So these little Boyd's laminates are up to the challenge of 7000 ftlbs? That's always good to know.

I'll call them in the morning about checkering one of their stocks bought without checkering.

Yep, properly glass bedded and cross-bolted and with proper tang relief and pillars, the Boyd's laminate will hold up.
Grip bolt hidden by a gripcap can also be done, but not necessary with laminate, as long as the rest is done right.

Kevin Jenkins built that rifle (above) but Rusty McGee finished it with the feed job, magazine box reinforcement, and installed the Lapour safety and a trigger job too,
after above "new baby" picture was taken.

I must blame Kevin for the "snakeskin" barrel finish.

Well, I called Boyds and they don't checker something that has already left their factory.

So I looked over their offerings and started to wonder about the thumb-hole sporter model. A thumbhole model would force my hand back with the recoil and might protect the trigger finger. A talked with Boyds on the phone, but the girl could only say that their stocks were stronger than anything that has been thrown at them. She was savvy enough to warn about bedding the tang end real tight to the stock as that can cause cracking. But none of those prairie-dog shooters are using 7000 ftlbs.

the idea is pretty foreign to me. I've never shot a thumb-hole stock. But why wouldn't it work on a 500?