Wayne Jacobsen is about done doing a full makeover of my .416 Rigby so I got to thinking about my next "project". Michael was talking about his .470 Capstick and that got me to thinking. Quality cartridge has properly headstamped brass for all three of these cartridges. I am not really looking for hyper velocity. I'm thinking 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet is plenty so I guess I would lean toward the Capstick. Which do you think is better and why?

If it were true that all things are equall in this contest, I like the mbogo, But; they never are.

I think the capstick is the closest to standard ctg. The 458 brass will always be available. it is the right size for your needs. It was actually offered by Winchester custom shop - all be it just one time - and who knows? Maybe someday again?

Dave,

I have a .470 Capstick, but I freely admit that the .470 Mbogo is 'better', for a right-handed shooter anyway (I am left-handed, and no Rigby-sized CRF actions were available at the time).

The Rigby-sized case will provide the same velocities at lower pressures, assuming the correct powders are used.

You may only want 2150fps today, but you could want to crank it up someday; the Rigby-sized case has the capacity to handle 2400fps.

That said, why not go with a .450 Rigby. I believe brass is available, there is a wider variety of bullets, and the SD will be slightly higher.

The AccRels provide a happy medium between the .375H&H-based Capstick and the Rigby-based Mbogo, with the additional benefit of widely available brass, and a slightly shorter platform.

George

If you want 2150 with a 500gr, then the 470 Accrel actually offers the lowest possible recoil.

The 470mbogo is the best 470, period

Dave

My 2 cents worth! Now this is what I would do if I had those 3 choices. But you must realize right off, what I would do would Limit You! I would have to eliminate everything from the list except for Winchester M70s. So that narrows it down a lot.

Now, I don't know anything about the 470 Mbogo except that it will take a larger than Winchester action, so it's out for me.

Leaves the Capstick and Jeffes AR. Of the two I would get myself one of the Winchester M70s that was done in 300 RUM, so the action is ready to go, very little work to do to retain cartridges in the magazine and build myself a 470 AR, with a 20 inch barrel. 2150 with 500s would be zero issue with that, and you most likely get a lot more out of it. Really hard to do 20 inches of barrel with the Capstick and maintain 2150. I am having a hard time doing that at 22 inches!

Now that's what I would do. But what I do and everyone else does might be very different?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
If you want 2150 with a 500gr, then the 470 Accrel actually offers the lowest possible recoil.

The 470mbogo is the best 470, period

Jeffe

You and I don't disagree too much, but this one I beg to differ with you on! While the 470 Mbogo may have the most capacity, it takes a much larger gun to utilize that capacity. Larger gun, more weight, more length, not as fast or easy to handle, not a fighting rifle!

470 AR in a little 20 inch Winchester, another story.

M

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

That said, why not go with a .450 Rigby. I believe brass is available, there is a wider variety of bullets, and the SD will be slightly higher.

George

George:

I already have a .450 Dakota. I just need a new project

Fourbore makes a good case for the Capstick. Easy to do on any .375 length action. Michael makes a good case for the AR but I can't find a .300 RUM on the Winchester web site. I don't think Ruger makes one either.

Can you make .470 Capstick brass buy just running .375 cylindrical brass through a .470 Capstick sizing die?

Dave

No, Winchester made a limited run of those guns in 300 RUM a few years ago. So far those are the ones to put any RUM based case on. They are out there, but I have been buying several to put RUM cases on. In particular the 500 MDM cartridge. I wish Winchester would come out with an RUM based action again? But.......Until then that's what we have in a Winchester that will work proper.

Capstick would be the easiest to do, and could do on any Winchester based on any of the belted cases. But would need to have 22 inches of barrel! It would also require some retaining work!

Michael

In all seriousness, I do feel teh 470mbogo is the best of all the big bores. Not just because dave is a dear friend and hunting buddy, but because the mbogo can do 2300-2400 at the same pressures the AccRel does 2150-2200.. and where the AccRel gets tired, the mbogo is just starting to click on in.

However, in terms of EASY, the capstick wins .. get a full length m70 or cz in 375, and rebarrel, use hornady basic magnum cases, quick resize, done ..

In terms of practical (oh boy) the 470 Accrel wins, hands down. Get ANY 30-06 length action with a mag bolt face, rebarrel, minor feed work, done .. you might have to "window" the magbox to get 3+1 .. ruger's a available fairly reasaonably, lefty, righty, stainless and blue, whatever stock you want, 3 pos safety and all.

i like mine the best, hoenstly .. Dave's Mbogo is AWESOME, though it does require a big action .. the capstick, well, seriously, I prefer mine .. just do, but that's pride of parenthood, i reckon.

Dies from Hornady, Brass from QualCart, barrel from McGowen, you are ready to go!

Oh, did I mention that the accrel can be made from 375 rum cases, easy as heck to find?

I always found cheap and easy quite appealing

me too!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Wayne Jacobsen is about done doing a full makeover of my .416 Rigby so I got to thinking about my next "project". Michael was talking about his .470 Capstick and that got me to thinking. Quality cartridge has properly headstamped brass for all three of these cartridges. I am not really looking for hyper velocity. I'm thinking 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet is plenty so I guess I would lean toward the Capstick. Which do you think is better and why?

Dave,
I always like having a few extra horsepower under the hood so I would say go with the Mbogo and load it to whatever velocity makes you happy. 2150fps give or take - you can always go up (or down) from there.

Dave

Now you did it! I can't believe you left out the new and upcoming soon to be 475 B&M! Just left me out of the pack altogether, never even considered the little B&M! Hmmmmm? Well, it's still a ways out I suppose, but just think, you could have a little Win M70, WSM action, Ultimate stock, 18 inch barrel, and weigh in at 6.5 lbs total, and I think we can shoot a 500 gr 470 at 2150 but that is the upper end, but it would be safe for sure, as the 458 B&M can do that. So I expect the 475 B&M could too!

Man, just left me right out of the mix, not even an honorable mention?

LOL


Michael

One step at a time Michael, one step a at a time!

470 Mbogo has near identical case capacity as a 470 Nitro Express.
Load data is interchangeable, at same low pressure,
for 500 grainers at 2150 fps.
Or you can actually get 500 grainers up to 2700 fps in the 470 Mbogo, if you choose your powder and bullet wisely and have at least 24" of barrel.
Bore Law dictates it moves the freight faster than a 460 Weatherby can, at the same pressure.

I have gotten about 2350 fps with 500 grainers out of the 470 Capstick and a 24" barrel.
Yes, 2150 fps is easy there too.
Also will allow a couple of extra rounds in the drop box, versus the Mbogo.
Your call.

Any word on the 500 Mbogo brass ... ??

500 Mbogo brass is old hat.
It has long been available from Quality Cartridge.
Made from Hornady .416 Rigby cylindrical basic brass, with proper headstamp"
"500 Mbogo
Quality Cartridge"
It is only 2.95" long.
I have not grown one to 3.000" max length yet.
The capacity is intermediate between 500 A-Square and 500 Jeffery,
and bigger than the 500 Nitro Express.
It is the best bolt-action "500" in the world, IMHO.

Believe it or not,
I am still waiting on .395 Tatanka brass,
ordered over 18 months ago.
Talking to Peter lately,
still hopefull of getting it soon.
On my budget, I have to proceed slowly,
but not that slowly!

lol.. only in a cz or such sized action .. in a standard length action, there's no comparison to the 500AccRel! it might only go 2300 with a 600 gr bullet in a standard length action, but it fits in one!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
lol.. only in a cz or such sized action .. in a standard length action, there's no comparison to the 500AccRel! it might only go 2300 with a 600 gr bullet in a standard length action, but it fits in one!

500 A2 $1,000 donor gun 600@ 2400
500 AccRel $500 donor gun 600@ 2300

Not bad eh...

I would rebore the 416 Ruger to 510

Jeff:

There is one thing I have a question about. If I use a donor gun, say a Ruger Hawkeye to build a .458 or .470 AccRel, isn't it going to be really, really light, maybe 8-8.5 pounds? Surely it will be handy but won't it just kick the snot out of me?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Jeff:

There is one thing I have a question about. If I use a donor gun, say a Ruger Hawkeye to build a .458 or .470 AccRel, isn't it going to be really, really light, maybe 8-8.5 pounds? Surely it will be handy but won't it just kick the snot out of me?

Forgive me Dave, I can't pass up this opportunity!

Maybe you need your nose cleaned out anyway???



Michael

I don't think 8.5 is too light .. now, the 500 in 8.5 is a tad light.. but nice to carry.

about 9 is a good target, WITH SCOPE, for the 500gr at 2150-2300 - winchester kind of agrees!

Jeff, I think you and Michael are just way tougher than me.

nah .. i am kind of a sissy ... though you can use the contour calculator on the pacnor site to get a good estimate of the barerl weight

the ruger action is like 36-38oz, iirc
weight the stock
put a limbsaver on it
add 4-6oz for bedding, xbolts, and such.

WAIT A SECOND

You have a blaser 470? I know, FOR A FACT, comapred head to head, that the 470 Ar in a 9# gun has less FELT recoil (500 at 2300) than the 470NE with federal factory loads ... Mike and I shot them, side by side, one morning at carters (local range here)

If you can handle the 500/416 or the 470, in doubles, the 470 ar is a SNAP.

Dave

Got the Hawks today, made a post on TBP, go check it, have a few questions.

Michael

Okay, one more question.

If I go ahead and decide to build a .470 bolt rifle, I guess I would be leaning toward the .470 Capstick because it is the easiest and I believe in KISS! I have a CZ brown laminate stock that Wayne is sending back to me that came off my .416 Rigby. I can buy a CZ action with a .375 bolt face (or a .416 bolt face too) from Brownells (any other suggestions?) for not much money. Brass with the correct head stamp is available from Quality Cartridge but even more important, Hornady makes basic belted magnum cylindrical brass. I checked with George, Hornady, and Dave Davison at CH4D and they all believe that with the cylindrical brass all you would need to do is make one pass through a .470 Capstick full length sizing die and trim. Voila!

Now, almost all of the above applies to the .470 Mbogo except for the brass. Brass is available from Quality Cartridge and, according to the .470 Mbogo web site, .470 Mbogo "brass is formed with one pass through the full length-sizing die using Mast Technologies 416 Rigby cylindrical brass." However, I think Mast Technology is the same as BeLL brass and I don't think they are manufacturing brass anymore. Is anyone aware of a source for .416 Rigby cylindrical brass?

Dave,
I ran a 470Capstick for awhile ... built it way too light at 9lb on a Rem700 using the factory magnum contour. Bolt used to cheese grate my knuckle! I used to load to about 2150fps from its 24" Lothar barrel ... but the new owner saw into the 2500fps with a 500gr using AR2208 (varget)!

Brass is indeed just a pass through the FL die, or have a tapered expander plug made that screws into your press that's 0.475" and you can open 375 brass ... but I'd prefer doing it in a few steps. The Hornady basic brass just gets run into the FL sizer and comes out ready to use. Make sure you get a 3 die set if you go for a 470Capstick.

After the 458AccRel and soon to come 458B&M ... I no longer believe its necessary to utilise full length magnum actions to achive 'classic' ballistics of 2150fps with 500gr projectiles. A Ruger Hawkeye can indeed be built to 10lb and that's a nice weight to shoot and carry.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I know, FOR A FACT, comapred head to head, that the 470 Ar in a 9# gun has less FELT recoil (500 at 2300) than the 470NE with federal factory loads ... Mike and I shot them, side by side, one morning at carters (local range here)

Sounds crazy ... but I agree. At like speeds ... my half a pound lighter 458AccRel recoils noticeably less than a 458Lott in a CZ550. I'm now considering re-profiling my 458AccRel barrel to lighten it up ... but may eventually just have another rifle built at under 10lb.
Cheers...
Con

mast=>BeLL=>jamison
you can fireform 416 rigby and its a hair short.. no issues .. and an excellent gun .. all the steps are the same for the capstick or mbogo -- INCLUDING hornady brass .. if you are going to use a long action, get the mbogo! Seriously, if action is no hurdle, and its the SAME action, get the Mbogo ... its so much COOLER than the capstick in looks and performance

or, get a ruger hawkeye in anymag and rebarrel to the 470AR .. brass is cheapcheap compared to most things .. no pesky belt (i don't care either way.. it works).

But, seriously, if you want a serious, no holds barred bigbore .470, the mbogo is the way to go, especially on a CZ...

though .... you COULD have Danny Pedersen rebore a cz 416 rigby barrel to 470 and shorten to 23" ... 300 bucks!

I hate it when I get my mind made up and you guys confuse me again. I have always thought I needed on of Jeff's cartridges too. Crap!

If you heart is set on a cz action, just do the mbogo .. it will do WAY more than you can stand in terms of recoil.. it CAN go 2700fps with a 500gr bullet.. if you are willing to HOLD ON ..

2500 is easy .. 2400 still soots the neck

the capstick can hold 1 more down ..

the AR . thanks for thinking of me.. heh, ruger, barrel, done!

Jeff, I already have a .450 Dakota which is kind of a .458 Mbogo isn't it?

I don't have one of your cartridges and I don't have a .600 OK. Hmmmmm....

Dave,
sort of ... there's little real difference in a .458 vs .475... but NO ONE will say "i got a 475/70, so i am a big bore shooter, too" ... heh .. besides, do you still have the TAC?

save the lam cz stock for a 600 ... and find a CZ medium, ruger, standard winchester.. mauser, or even a savage/remington standard length, mag boltface action ...

and there you!

Jeff:

No, I sold the TAC!

You are getting me talked into this but if I sign on for a .458 or .470AR, you have to promise to help me with the project.

you got it .. and remember, "no one" else has a .475 bullet chunker at the range .. the 458 ar is "the best" of the 40s i designed.. BUT the 470 is the coolest!

400gr speer golddots at stupid vels! tough bullet, btw.. its hardcast and the "jacket" is electroplated on a .035!