quote:

My 24" Ruger M77 gives me 2125fps over my chrono with the 500gr Hornady RN Interbond using 66.0gr of Re7 and a CCI250. I can still hear the powder rattle in the case when I shake the round and it shows NO signs of pressure. I haven't tried to push it any further simply because this is the "standard" for that round and that's plenty.

You can EASILY obtain into the 23's with no prob

The Ruger 77 mentioned is a 458WM and not a Lott, no, 2300 isn't possible with a short case. If you've been playing with a 458, you'd have recognized that the load posted is a max load for the short round. RE 7 is ideal for the WinMag and not the Lott.

I've seen a reference to a long throated 458 Win. some where, recently, What is that all about, and where would it fit into this discussion? Thanks, Wayne

I suppose you could throat the standard .458 a bit and gain a little capacity, but for little more than the cost of throating, you can rechamber to the Lott and get more advantage, 'course then you get into magazine modifications and possibly rail work, but you would most likely have to modify the magazine and feed ramp area if you went to a long throat anyway. If you were doing a Ruger #1, it would be feasible.

Lee, by the time you're done, you have essentially done what Lott did -- except that he started with .375H&H brass at the start. Another facet to seating the bullet further out is that most of these things need to be pretty deeply crimped into the canelure to keep the bullet from seating deeper under recoil. That doesn't leave you with as much flexiblity as you might like to play with seating. That leads you back to the Lott.

Dan

I've enjoyed this discussion and here's what I've learned.

1. If you want a rifle that will chunk a 500 grain conventional soft or solid (that means Woodleigh and Hornady, I guess), a handloaded .458 Win Mag will do it with ease if you have a 24" barrel. 450 grain bullets will still give you a sectional density of .300, too and even higher velocities.

2. More is better and a Lott is more... but maybe not necessary. A Lott is enough to wipe out Jurassic Park.

When it came time to spend several thousand dollars on a custom bolt gun, I erred to the more powerful Lott... And couldn't figure any reason not to do so...

So.. if you are recoil sensitive, if you want a shorter action, if you find a good deal on a .458 Win Mag and if you reload or don't mind Superior Arms ammo, Hornady, Safari Arms, etc.. what the hey? 2150 fps will do. Heck, 2100 fps will do! Buy the regular. It will kill anything. If you like 16 valves instead of 8.. buy the Lott and use high test.. I did.

quote:

Originally posted by walex:
I've seen a reference to a long throated 458 Win. some where, recently, What is that all about, and where would it fit into this discussion? Thanks, Wayne

Walex, in case you're forgoten in all the huff and puff, I believe Mr. RIP stated that the .458 WM had a very long throat. As far as I know it doesn't fit in anyware, unless it be reemed out for more case length eg a Lott. No pun intended.
I think it only helps lower pressure on fireing. It normaly can't be used for a longer seating bullet as it then wouldn't fit in a standard mag. and the cannelure on normal bullets would be too far forward. ???
John L>

quote:

JudgeG
one of us

Posted 13 July 2005 06:04


2. More is better and a Lott is more... but maybe not necessary. A Lott is enough to wipe out Jurassic Park

And above all,remember. You never know how much fire power your neighbour might have

This has been a good thread. I've been a big fan of the 458 Lott, enough to have gotten a second one after selling the first. Here are some points to consider between the two chamberings.

The 458 Win mag was never as bad as it's harshest critics stated, and modern powders and componets allow it to do what it was originally designed to do.

The 458 Lott was developed as a means of providing more powder capacity to the 458 win mag, clearly a goal as the chambering was designed to use 458 win mag ammo.

I don't think the Lott offer more than a 100 to at most 150 fps advantage over the win mag. I also believe for whatever reason, the current Lott saami spec chamber has cucolded the Lott. With decent freebore, the lott can stretch it's legs, with a short and tight throat, it's throttled back to be no more than a 458 win mag. I would presume this is related to most sporting arms makers having no clue as to what makes a proper big bore, and applying bench rest thinking to chamber dimensions.

The 458 Lott is a more flexible chambering, it can do everything the 458 win mag can do, including chambering and firing the win mag with no accuracy or low velocity problems. The larger case also provides the ability to use a larger selection of powders.

Finally, neiter of the rounds are low pressure rounds, and anyone claiming that the 458 win mag pushes 500's @ 2150 or the Lott pushes 500's @ 2300 as low pressures may be a bit off the mark. That they can achieve that performance without flowing brass into the bolt head yes, but they aren't low pressure loads by any means.

If you can't kill it with a 458 win mag, well, the Lott isn't the answer, nor an even bigger chambering, it's called shot placement. If however you are looking for the most flexible chambering in a .458" rifle, I think most would agree Jack Lott's design is about as good as it gets, and one of the biggest reasons is the ability to fire 458 win mag ammo in a pinch.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
...
If you like 16 valves instead of 8.. buy the Lott and use high test.. I did.

Thanks Judge...that's what I am doing, too.

Interesting thread, as I want to learn all I can about the 485 WM. Not much has being said about the benifits of settleing for the WM over the Lott. In my case in Australia, the WM was much more common and available, the brass is very much more common and no doubt cheaper.
And handloading will put the sparkle back into the WM.

Last but not least, I didn't have to get a CZ/Brno CRF, which by all the posts in AR don't seem to be able to feed out of the box, this side or that side who cares.
For goodness sake, it's the most basic thing required of a rifle, let alone a DG calibre.

Just an amusing note:]
Last night I rang a friend and when I mentioned all the informed shooters here won't have a push feed, he said he has only ever had one jam and that was with a CRF, (a Parker Hale that jumped a round in front of the extractor, and stuck in the chamber.
The very thing the CRF merchants say won't happen.
But then he usually shoots Weatherby's up to 460 so he is probably a bit spoiled with dependable feeding.
(Good one here Mike378)

John L>

I agree with 465s findings as they are about what I got the last time I chronographed a 458 Win..A tad on the border line for a elephant rifle, but on the high side of borderline..

I consider 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet sufficient for buffalo and elephant both, but not anything below that...thats when it gets sticky IMO...

My only reasoning is why not the Lott, no one has explained that to me as yet...It is such a simple solutions to the poor history of the 458 Win. that has failed miserably over the years for some of the most experienced of hunters, I accept that and where there is smoke then there is fire in all probability, I also except that, so why would I opt for a caliber that creates all this discussion, makes no since to me unless I ran across a good deal on one..then I might use it, otherwise I'll opt for a Lott. and convert to the Lott, I can still shoot 458 Winchester ammo...

Paul H, Your above post was excellent!!

Does anyone know why they SAAMI standardized the Lott w/ a short chamber and throat compaired to the original Lott wildcat? It would be easy enough to convert a SAAMI Lott rifle to a Wildcat Lott w/ an original reamer. It would be safer then to use the hotter handloads, but you would still be stuck w/ factory Lott ammo that is downloaded do to the short SAAMI chamber. I don't understand why they did this.

Gary

I've been following the other Lott thread, and would love to read something definitive about the chamber length "issue" myself.

(Though mine's probably got the wildcat throat-- custom built, three years ago.)

This is a folow up to my earlier post on velocity checks on the 458 Win factory loads.

I measured velocity of 3 commonly used 458 Win factory loads out of the 24" barrel of a Rem custon shop 458 Win. I ran the tests at 68F and at 95F. See the earlier post for the same ammo from a 22" barrel.

At 68F the results were as follows:

Win 510 gr.SP Adv. velocity = 2,040 fps
measured velocity 2,017 sd = 18

Fed 500 gr. Solid Adv. velocity = 2,090 fps
measured velocity 2,052 fps sd = 12

Hornady 500 gr. soild Adv velocity = 2,260 fps
measured velocity 2,133 fps sd = 9

To avoid being repetitive I'll only say here that velocities increased by 15 to 25 fps at 95F over 65F velocities.

The velocity gain going from a 22" to 24" barrel was very consistent and was approximately 40 fps or 20 fps/inch of barrel length. I was unable to come any where near the velocities reported by Hornady or Phil Shoemaker in his Rifle article. Why I do not not know but suggest that you test factory 458 Win ammo out of your rifle before you assume you will get factory published velocities from your rifle.

465H&H

465H&H,

Thanks for sharing your data!

So, if your est. is correct of gaining approx. an additional 40fps w/ a 24" bbl., would it be fair to say that the Hornady Lott ammo would be approx. 2240fps w/ the Hornady Winchester being approx. 2130fps. Difference between the two approx. 110fps. Would that be a fair assesment w/ your test?

Thanks again,
Gary

GaryVA!

I haven't tested the 458 Lott in a 24" barrel so I can't say for sure. But that result is what I would expect but I have been fooled before.

465H&H

465H&H,

I don't have the time or money to do much testing at this moment. Velocities I've measured w/ the Hornady Lott ammo always ran approx 2225 to 2250fps. The Hornady Win ammo ran approx 2175 to 2200. The difference for me was less than 100fps.

Thanks again for your feedback,
Gary

My understanding is that Jacques Lott was motivated to design the .458 Lott due to failures of the .458 Win. The failures I've read about included projectile failures and under-powered loads. A great article by Charlie Haley can be found at:

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/firearms/solidsvmono_01.htm

The article does a great job reviewing most of the issues revolving around these points (particularly on page 4).

Another comparative review can be found at (author writes personably, but doesn't identify himself):

http://www.midwestmagnum.com/

This article does not seem to think there's as significant improvement in the Lott over the .458 Win as might be expected.

A recent Guns 'n' Ammo article by Stan Skinner:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/458winmag_122804/

also refers to the clumped ammo (see the cybertorpedo article above) and projectile penetration failure. His testing indicated 500 gr loads running about 2,150 fps.

Published data by Federal and Hornady seems to be close (Hornady has their Heavy Magnum loads, to boot).

The articles I've included above kick around the same stuff that's been kicked back and forth on this forum. My reading is that Lott was trying to solve some problems that more modern powders and modern projectiles may have mostly solved. He constructed a very good solution (particularly, he had easy ways to convert longer action .458 Wins's into .375H&H-length cartriges that would safely shoot .458 win's in a pinch), and the thing does show more power... but not that much MORE power.

Whether or not you agree with my opinion, I hope you enjoy the articles!

Dan

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The reason for Winchester opting for the short verion likely that they felt that they did not need to do extra tooling on the Model 70 to fit the short version and that if the long version was to be taken it would mean that they needed to make a longer action.

Not so. All pre-64s (and the .458 Win. Mag. was introduced in 1958) were long enough to accept .375 H&H Mag. cases.

Which makes it all the more baffling why Winchester screwed up (or down) the Win. Mag. as they did.

.

Not forgetting.

Following Winchester's decision, Lott's (re)adaption of the (long) Watts followed from the problems of the .458 win. Caked powder was at least as true as Charlie Halie's report (wouldn't want to say he was fibbing about digging it out with his own hands in order to re-use the brass).

That fact that Lott's rechambering (compatible with the .458 win) works makes the case that Watts' cartridge would also have worked in the model 70.

The case length is a curiosity -- I wonder why they wanted to make something that fit the .30-06 for length when their rifle was happy with the .375 H&H... Yet, a number of successful cartridges were developed from the .458 win case: 7mm Rem Mag, .338 win mag, .264 win mag (well, maybe not so successful, but a great cartridge). Perhaps this legacy should be attributed to Watts.

But -- the original question was how much more one gets from a .458 Lott vs. a .458 Win -- today. Maybe this conversation is too much like the .308 win vs. .30-06 argument. But one thing that has struck me is that Halie, who had been one of the guys who dug caked powder out of old .458 win cases, is quite positive about the .458 win, and happy to boost the cartridge. His is only one of the voices who have committed themselves to print on the topic. In the end, I think I've come to the conclusion that the difference is real, but not very large, maybe enough to put a charge down a little faster (always worth something), but that modern bullets and powders, and (the favorite excuse of advocates of softer cartridges) shot placement, are the real winners. This doesn't even get into the sectional density and penetration issues advocated by .416 rem/rigby fans (this is .458 win vs. .458 lott, after all).

Dan

Jack Lott, disigned the 458 Lott because he was stomped, gored, and tossed into the top branches of a thorn tree (which saved his life btw), so he was no fan of the 458 Win. that he was using that day, thus the birth of the 458 Lott...

The beauty of the 458 Lott is that you can load it to 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. and have very little pressure and about the same recoil as a .458 at 2000 FPS..

Ray,
I agree with everything you said, except the lower pressure. It's saami spec is EXACTLY the same as the 458 win mag.. the only way it could get lower pressure is to run at the same velocity.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
mrlexma:

I'm just relating the history of the original 458 Winnie as described in the biography of James Watts.

Whether the Model 70 could accept the original 450 Watts or not, they at Winchester opted for the Short Watts version and not the original long version.

PLEASE NOTE: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Response, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jack Lott, disigned the 458 Lott because he was stomped, gored, and tossed into the top branches of a thorn tree (which saved his life btw), so he was no fan of the 458 Win. that he was using that day, thus the birth of the 458 Lott...
..

Sir, I'ts probably just me, but, the way that story reads, isn't to say someone won't be stomped etc after using a 458 Lott, or anything else for that matter. But sure the Lott is better. Don't know about a lot better though.


John L

15% more powder = 15% more kinetic energy (assuming same powder). At 2100 FPS, 15% more K.E. comes from about 150 FPS.

Thus, with similar reloading techniques and components, one can expect about 150 FPS more in the Lott.

However, that's still 700 foot-pounds or so.

And another way to look at this is that the Lott does at 100 yards what the WM does at the muzzle. It's an improvement, but not a quantum leap.

Pertinax

There is a certain issue of efficiency (still sounding like those who support the .308 win over the .30-06)... but one does not necessarily see the full energy in the extra powder transferred to the KE of the projectile in part due to differences in the shape of the case (longer and longer buys less and less per powder). Lott did get more power, but not that much more power per powder... but that wasn't really the point for him.

Dan

If you want to see a noiceable increase in thump power over the 458 Win. Try using a 458 Lott with 550 gr. Woodleigh solids. Pour in enough H-4895 to reach 2,125 to 2,150 fps from a 22" barrel or 2200 from a 24" barrel and you will be impressed. Penetration, thump power and recoild is definately increased over the 500 gr.

465H&H

Jal,
Didn't say I agreed or anything, just stated why the 458 Lott came about, and that came from the horses mouth...

Jeffe,
That is what I tried to say, guess I didn't get it done, It is my contention that at equal velocity the Lott has less pressure because it has more case space...and you could probably add anothe 100 FPS in a Lott and still get a tad less pressure, maybe, at least it's up for some testi conversation!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jal,
Didn't say I agreed or anything, just stated why the 458 Lott came about, and that came from the horses mouth...
:

As you have stated often, the Lott is a good way to improve the 458 Win., and Mr Lott had as good a reason as any to do it. If I have the correct Buff. by the horns, it took quite a few hits from a 375 and the 458. Which would make it angry I guess.
I read where Mr.Lott "tragicly died" just before one of his articles was published. Was that another hunting incident?
JL.

Mr. Lott was dying of cancer. Rather than go that way, he shot himself with a .455 Webley revolver.

Having followed this thread to a moment of quietness in the jungle, I have a question..., born of ignorance and curiousity.

My qualifications for ignorance are that I once shot a .458 Win; I know a guy in California who owns a .458 Lott; and by coincidence the odds of me going to Africa to need such a hammer perfectly coincide with the odds of me winning a lottery. Now to my curiosity.......

Given that I've learned herein that it is possible to shoot the Win. in the Lott chamber, would it then be possible to increase the powder capacity in the Win. case by seating the bullet a bit long and therefore sort of "hot rodding" the Win.? If that is practical, would not a Lott-chambered gun be the best of both worlds that could allow sort of a power continuum from a base Win. to a full house Lott. Again, if practical, would seating the bullet out in the Win. case without increasing the powder ease some of the pressure concerns expressed by some here?

I've been to a lot of these forums and seen all the this verus that posts one could imagine. The lott seriously out performs the win in the same way the 300 weath out does its H&H father.It took us many decades to realize the totally seperate cartridges there much in the way it will here...If you want to appease yourself by owning a win and trying to corelate the two go ahead,but You'd be far better off waisting the keyboard doing a this versus that on the manufacturers of today that are trying to chase another 50 fps out of a proj 1/4-1/3 the weight(and most often failing).All the 45's hurl a turnip,and even so much as a 100fps (and its more)when hurling turnips makes it an entirely different gun,and to foolishly attempt a this versus that will only end in the ref holding the lott's hand up and shouting"THE CHAMPION AND UNDEFEATED"...Like I said theres lots out there that might fall in to the catagorie. For example you can start with virtually all P.O.'s pathetic attempts.....

Rogue1,
You could seat the bullets out on a 458 win. but to be effective you would also need to open the magazine up a bit on most std. 458 Win. rifles as the 458 is pretty much a blivit, (5 lbs. of s--t in a two lb. bag.) and if your going to do that it would probably be just as well to go ahead and run a reamer in just a tad and make a Lott out of it, then you could seat 458 Win.s out, load the lott down to 458 velocities, or full bore it, or do whatever you wished to do in either direction...

All this is just opinnion and choice, as the .458, although not of particularly great design, and loaded with problems over the years, working off high pressures, and generally a problematic cartridge, is a perfectly capable dangerous game cartridge with a proper handload or some factory ammo for that matter...

I am no fan of the .458 Win., never have been, but if I ran across a trim nice .458 Win that caught my eye, and fit me I would jump on it and hunt the world with it, but in time, I bet you I would punch it out to a Lott, maybe....

OK, I've stayed outta this one. Just one point, I bougth my Whitworth for $200. With AA 2200 powder, I can in 100 degree temps, get an honest 2200 fps with Hornady 500 grain solids. No sign of pressure. For an up-coming buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe, my PH who uses a .460 Weatherby, when asked what rifle to bring, the .458, .375, or a .416 Rigby, he said the one I can shoot the most accurately and rapidly. If I didn't already own the .458, I'd get a Lott. IMHO

2200 fps with AA2200 ? must be why AA called it that.
What length barrel is it.?
John L.

When you increase the case capacity from 458Win to 458Lott the additional powder capacity will be increased but the efficiency will be decreased. Increasing the powder charge will increase the velocity but this gain in velocity per grain increase in powder will decrease with the increase in case volume. This effect of decreased efficiency is due to the change in expansion ratio between the smaller Winchester case and the larger Lott case. This is not unique to the Winchester/Lott cartridges but apply to any increase or reduction in case capacity by modifying a parent case. This also applies to steam, gasoline and diesel engines as they are all linear heat engines.

In as nutshell, as you increase the case volume you reduce the expansion ratio and the efficiency. In addition, as you reduce the pressure you further reduce the efficiency. So whatever percent increase in case capacity you get w/ the Lott will not result in an equal percent increase in velocity

With the latest double based powders, I think AAC is one, you can load the 458Winchester to maximum efficiency. For me, I have no problems reaching 2150 to 2200+. If you apply the same to the Lott, you will get more velocity but at a reduced rate of return but you will get an increase in recoil at a full rate of return.

I view the Lott as the better choice to shoot the longer monolithic solids at full load, but as a poor choice to download as the Winchester is more efficient w/ the lower loads.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have used a 458 Win now for over twenty years and the Lott for only a couple. I did not give all of my reloading data in the article but stand by my data as true in the rifles I used. Of course the Lott gives a little more velocity but in my experience it makes little to no difference in practise. It is entirely possible to reach 2150 with the standard 458 with safe, low pressure loads. This is a well proven and established dangerous load and all Jack Lott originally wished for. By the end he decided 2300fps was better due additional shock - and maybe it is under some circumstances if you can stand it. But the fact is the standard 458 is sufficient for anything that walks. Period.

I cannot agree more. In fact the 458WM with a good 450gr bullet at 2350 fps is where it shines most.

Of course, you can go Lott if you want to take the extra punishment. I'm not sure you can get that in performance too.