Is there that much difference in these two cartridges? i was looking at buying a winchester safari express in 458win for 885 or would it be wiser to buy the ruger 458 lott for 1350.00. Does anyone have any expierence with either of these rifles, good or bad, accuracy,feeding problems ect. thanks

If you can find a copy of the latest Sucessful Hunter magazine. Phil Shoemaker, who posts here occasionally, has an article on the very subject.

Seems like he found that with equal pressure the difference in velocity was something under 100 fps.

His bottom line...if you have a 458 Win, keep it. If you're shopping, consider the Lott.

I would firstly beg to differ on the velocities, but that aside. You get to use real brass with the lott(hornady)not win brass that comes out of the bag with every other piece mangled

I have no first hand experience with the Lott. But just looking at the Hornady site they show only 40FPS difference in their factory loads between the Lott and 458Wmag. I saw a CZ in 458Lott/458Wmag (says that on the barrel)yesterday. Nice looking rifle. A little larger than the Winchester but smaller than the Ruger. And cheaper than both.

I wouldn't think the jump of a 458Wmag shot in a Lott chamber would have that much effect.

Grizz
you could buy the win, and for about 150 bucks, have it rechamered to the lott.The ruger is a nicer looking gun, but that's your call.

the only way to get the hornady load velocity in a 458 wm is to buy the factory ammo.

The gentle fact is that you can not get away from pressure, and having a case thats a huge % higher means that for a given velocity, (assuming correct powders) the lott will have lower pressure.. or, assuming suitable powders, given a pressure, the lott will have higher velocity.

The lott is simply the most flexible of all the small 40's.. it can loaded down to 404, then to 416 taylor, then ruger/rigby.. and then to true lott energy / recoil levels

jeffe

Jeffo is on the Money !!

Considering the cost differential (essentially none), why _not_ get the Lott? I disagree with the claims that there's only 40-100 FPS difference between the cartridges-- that may be the case with some commercial offerings, but it won't be on your reloading bench. Secondly, you'll be able to get full velocity with longer monolithic bullets with the Lott, because there's more room for powder. You won't be eyeing those Tungsten core bullets to get an extra few mm of space like you will with the Win-Mag.

All in all, more flexibility.

With my 458 win. mag (since traded) I could get right at 2150fps with my handloads, however, with my Lott I can easily get 2300+fps. In my opinon the Lott is superior to the win.mag for reasons noted in the post above ie lower pressure and better flexibility, etc. and with mono-metal bullets the Lott is much better given case capacity.

If ran across a nice win.mag, at a good price, I would buy it but my first choice would be the Lott...but as noted above you can convert the win. mag. to a Lott for not much $$$

Depending on your recoil tolerance, the Lott kicks a lott more, and what price you're really willing to pay, you can get whatever you want. The 458WM is still a good one to have and you can get really good loads using a 450 gr bullet to good velocities. The Lott has to have a bit of weight to it to soak up recoil. I have had a 458WM for 8-9 yrs and have it for general all around use. The Lott is job specific if you need a really big hammer. Since I have both, I might not be of real help in your decision making.

A good approach is to buy the Lott, shoot factory ammo or load the Lott down to about 2250 FPS...I can see no reason at all to purchase a 458 Win when a 458 Lott is available.

The boys in Africa are haveing problems with punched out 458 Winchester I read somewhere in a recent article, African Hunter I think??????

My results were similar to JJS's, except we did attain 2400 fps with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids. We ended up backing the load down to right at 2300 for a BIG difference in felt recoil. My buddies Cape Buffalo never knew the difference. Even if the difference was only 100 fps, the difference in ft/lbs of energy delivered is substantially higher when you are chunking 500 grains as opposed to, say, a 150 gr. 308! And the beauty of the Lott, is that you can use standard .458 win mag ammo with no problems.

Gentlemen,

Anyone interested in this topic owes it to themselves to get a copy of Phil Shoemaker's article that appears in Rifle #220. Quite a bit of research and testing went into it w/ confirmations/verifications from several major sources.

In a nutshell, there is a difference in the current standardized Lott chamber from the original and therefore the older Lott loads are too hot for current factory rifles.

Rounds have been quietly downloaded by the factories below published velocities.

Hornady has made an accurate and fair assessment of the differences between the two cartridges. Using identical barrels in its test facilities, the .458 Winchester with current powders can safely be loaded to shoot a 500-grain bullet 2,260fps, and the Lott at 2,300fps. These findings were confirmed by several other sources and tests in the article.

Factory loadings, hand loads, North Forks, Superior Ammo, etc., etc. were all fairly consistent. The differences between the .458 Winchester and Lott were insignificant. Any advantage that the Lott may have in more velocity and less pressure is more theoretical than real. To top it off, it goes on to show that the entire argument is moot because the time proven benchmark is 2,150fps with a bullet of high sectional density.

I though it was a great read and worth the price of the publication. Both are great cartridges and have there place, but if anyone claims that a max Lott load is vastly superior to a max .458 Winchester load, it appears they will not have any facts to back them up.

Gary

I have a few rds of factory ammo left and will graft it next Sat. I wonder,if when shooting a say a North Fork 450 CPS if the little extra case length might help?? With the Lott you can shoot both rds if you need to. I am also one who cares not about about range test. I do want to see if the factory is BSing us. I remember almost being killed because of range data. I have, however, been told by many members here that after 2100-2200 fps it don't matter. They all have more experance than me. I have the Lott.
Gene

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Gentlemen,

Anyone interested in this topic owes it to themselves to get a copy of Phil Shoemaker's article that appears in Rifle #220.

Can anyone help me out here.
I went to order a copy in Australia but it wasn't listed as available. Only Rifle Shooter which I subscribe to.
EG I could send a bank cheque in $US for MUCH more than postage and retail value.

(ON thursday I got a paper posting cover with the mag missing, either Shooting Times or Rifle shooter. Yep the mail must get through, (the wrap anyway.))

John L.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Gentlemen,
...
Both are great cartridges and have there place, but if anyone claims that a max Lott load is vastly superior to a max .458 Winchester load, it appears they will not have any facts to back them up.

Gary

Gary,
First, lets get this ABSOLUTELY clear... Hornady uses exotic reloading powders and techiniques not available to anyone else. Period.. the end. There is relatively little point in discussing that ONE load, from ONE manufactor when discussing the world wide availablity of the rifles. Hornary aint in every nook and cranny around the globe... One load, ONE bullet (fmj) and they are "sorry, we are not currently accepting international orders for ammunition or components"


Then again, Hornady is the folks that brought us the 376 steyr, who's pressures from factory loads in factory rifles SCARE me

the relative difference is greater than the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 and any of their children.. in fact, it's exactly the same as the difference between a 416rem and taylor... EXACTLY the same.

my experience with the lott and winnie, the rem and taylor, and the 30-06 and the 308 is... simply...

bigger case go faster (assuming same bullet and pressure)

I have (not anymore)run the taylor and the winnie hot, trying to make them into the things that they aren't.. and the saying is true, there are old reloaders, and bold reloaders, but there are no old BOLD reloaders... I intend to live to be VERY old.

with that desire to grow old, my 458 win loads will probably never cross 2100 fps with 500gr bullets...unless theres a readily available powder source, I would sweat bullets of my chrono read 2150 or greater with a 500 gr blue nose, and i would back down on pressure

Jeffe

Jeffe,

Read Shoemaker's article. Everything you just stated in your last reply appears to be proven untrue by Phil's data he has collected for the article. Everything was consistent w/ Hornady to include other manufacturers, custom loaded ammo, handloads, tests done by other well respected individuals doing their own extensive testing. All the facts seem to be in Phil Shoemaker's corner. No disrespect to you or anyone else as I am a fan of both rounds, but w/ current available powders for anyone it appears that all of the collected facts by numerous sources (not just Hornady) disprove everything you just said. The only data available to support your position is based on old outdated data that is no longer valid. I like the Lott but I side w/ Shoemaker's conclusion.

Gary

I have read the article. Closely. And with all due respect to Phil Shoemaker, the conclusion he reaches is a fallacy.

Here is his conclusion: The .458 Lott, shooting the same bullets and otherwise identical to the .458 Win. Mag., except that the Lott has a 0.3" longer case and 15% more powder capacity, can only achieve "a tad more velocity."

How does he reach this conclusion? By carefully working up handloads and publishing data and chronograph results? No. No originally developed data at all are published, except bullet weights and published (not tested) velocities from a few factory loadings, with the Hornady "trick" loads for the .458 Win. Mag. featured prominently.

Does anyone doubt that if Hornady were to apply the same techniques and load the same powders in the Lott case that the Lott velocities would increase proportionately?

Plus, the comparison between the two calibers was further skewed by comparing Hornady factory Lott loads, which are at least 100-200 fps below what any handloader can achieve within SAAMI pressure limits, with the Hornady factory "trick" loads in .458 Win. Mag.

The simple fact is that Shoemaker compared apples to oranges. Let me say it again:

1. If you start with two cases, otherwise identical to each other, except that one has 15% more powder capacity;

2. And if you load them with the same bullets, to capacity with the same powders using comparable loading techniques;

3. Then the bigger case will give you more velocity.

QED. In the case of the Lott and the Win. Mag. the velocity advantage will be in the range of at least 150-200 fps.

Well with other case enlargements the norm is that the velocity increase is about 1/4 of the capacity increase. So if the Lott has 15% more capacity then you should see a 3.75% increase in velocity. If the 458 gives 2200 then that would be 82.5. I did a lot of wildcat work years ago. The increase in velocity to powder is normally pretty linear until you jump way overbore. On some of the heavy bullets since you don't have to seat them as deep then the net capacity increase might be more than 15%.

Gary,
no offense meant, but that you are telling me is that a 22-250 can out run a 22swift...

Bigger cases, at the same pressure, go faster..

As MR said, if hornady did the same thing with the lott, it would still faster.

Now, let's get back to reality.. Handloading, which brings out the best of both rounds, can't duplicate the SINGLE load hornady has.

So, here's my last post on the subject....Bigger cases go faster, or everyone would be shooting 300 savage and going 300 win velocities

jeffe

Ok, I had a M70 in .458winmag punched out to .458Lott. The Lott will easily get the "magic" 2150fps w/ a 500gr bullets w/o bending anything or overcompacting the powder, both are required to get 2150fps in the .458wm. You can run it up to 2300fps but you are back to higher pressure & powder compaction. This is where Shoemaker is probably going when he talks about "not much diff.".
If you don't want to mess w/ it, get the Ruger or CZ in Lott & be done w/ it. If you have to have a M70, the conv. is inexpensive & works fine. For me, the Lott was just too much of a good thing, 500gr @ 2250fps in a 9.25# rifle, & I sold it. Now I have the "perfect" rifle/cartridge in the .404jeffery!

Having just read the Shoemaker article, I gotta say, it was just about comparing factory 458WM to 458 Lott loadings. He didn't get into reloading either one for better performance. The bigger case will definitely get better results with the right powder. Since I won't have the time for a while since I'll be starting another job starting either Tue or Wed, I'll be playing with a few loads when I can to see for myself. Steve from Oreegone says he's gotten good results with Varget. I plan to try that powder and maybe try to see how much farther out I can seat the bullets and still be within COL for my RSM. We'll see.

I like the shorter bolt throw of the Win Mag as I generally hunt light game with the "30-06 length action". As the Lott has a longer bolt throw than I normally use, I find that I have to pay extra attention to working the bolt. With so little difference in the velocity between the cartridges. I see no need for a Lott. If I need extra power over the 458 wm--- I have a 470 Capstick -- which I feel is a superior round to the 458 Lott.

I have used a 458 Win now for over twenty years and the Lott for only a couple. I did not give all of my reloading data in the article but stand by my data as true in the rifles I used. Of course the Lott gives a little more velocity but in my experience it makes little to no difference in practise. It is entirely possible to reach 2150 with the standard 458 with safe, low pressure loads. This is a well proven and established dangerous load and all Jack Lott originally wished for. By the end he decided 2300fps was better due additional shock - and maybe it is under some circumstances if you can stand it. But the fact is the standard 458 is sufficient for anything that walks. Period.

Jeffe & MR, Great discussion!

I've been following this 458W/Lott debate w/ Shoemaker for a while prior to the July article. I'm satisfied that Shoemaker, Echols, Buffalo Bore, Superior, Hornady and Kynoch did their own testing for safe max loads for the rounds and that they were less than 100fps difference. I have faith that they are honest and truthful. Didn't Mr. Sisk also do some load testing that showed the differences were less than 100fps?

Questions - Wasn't it D'Arcy Echols who did all the testing and load development for the 458Lott when it was a wildcat? Didn't Echols discover that the (Hornady) SAAMI standardized Lott was chambered w/ a different dimension than the original and that the hot handloads that everyone is talking about is not safe in the current factory rifles? I thought Echols pointed that out, and as a result the 2300fps is currently considered the top end on the Lott (not a substandard load). Also, isn't the 375/338 Taylor basically the same as the 375H&H but shorter w/ less space and less powder? I thought that round was able to match velocity w/ the larger H&H case because the powder burns more efficiently in the smaller case? I thought this was along the lines w/ Shoemaker saying the .458Winchester was already at max pressure so by increasing the length to Lott only added a few additional grains resulting in a small increase in fps. Now this is consistent w/ my handloading experience of seeing approx. 40-80fps difference but not the 150-200fps difference. That would be moot anyway I guess because I'm a believer in the 2150fps benchmark.

If you guys know of any current reputable published data that disputes the article's conclusion, please pass it along as I would enjoy looking it over.

Thanks,
Gary

458Win (Phil Shoemaker), to quote Patrick Wayne in "Big Jake"..."Dammit mister, I believe you!"

This won't be the first time a wildcat was domesticated and the ammo/gun manufacturers having to rein-in velocities.

Hey, I've got both a 458WM and a 458 Lott. The reason for the Lott is for more horsepower. I'll find the limits of the cartridge and rifle in a few months. I have absolutely no intention of blowing my beautiful RSM or myself up. If I don't get where I want to be in terms of velocity vs overly compressing the powder, I'll just have to call it quits and say, "I tried."

I have all the respect in the world for my very good friend Phil Shomaker, and I really appreciate the nice article he did in the latest Successful Hunter, BUT we have and do still have differing opinnions on the 458 Win vs. the 458 Lott,

I am a fan of the 458 Lott, other than it recoils more than I care for..I do believe that I get a safe 2350 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet, never had a problem in the African heat with it, and I think 250 FPS is substantial with a 500 gr. bullet in the killing catagory on big ugly animals, not so with a 180 gr. bullet in a 300 for example, where that amount of velocity doesn't mean a heck of a lot....

I do agree that the 458 Win. with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS minimum is all in the world one needs on cape Buffalo or even elephant..but many factory loads in the past did not measure up to that velocity, thus the 458 got a bad rap Maybe, however when they fix it, the Africans start yelling foul, high pressure and bullets failing to penitrate, so where does the problem with the 458 lay, I am not sure, it's a love hate relationship with hunters, and I have no answers, but I play the odds and use the bigg'un, the 458 Lott and I don't have to deal with the issue at hand...

But Phillip, should I run across a nice .458 Win. for the right price, then I will surely buy it, use it with abandon, and claim its virtures, thats just the way of the hunter!

In fact all this to do over the 458 Win. has once again peaked my curoisty, so perhaps I should give it another try, mayby on a nice 1909 Argentine, that should do.

Gentlemen, I apologize if anything I posted caused this discussion to go sour. I truly love both rounds and love a healthy discussion and/or debate on the subject.

JAL, Wolfe Publishing Company (928)445-7810 puts out "Successful Hunter", "Rifle Sporting Firearms Journal", "Rifle's Handloader". The article may have been in all of them, but I got it in the July issue "Rifle Sporting...." issue #220. They have a good group of contributing editors and on occasion they publish an article by Mr. Shoemaker. I have no affiliation to him or the magazine other than he is my absolute favorite (current) gun writer. He is one of the few I trust and I have enjoyed everything he puts out. I know he stays busy but I'd love to see if he could put out books ala Capstick style.

Gary

GaryVA

No arguments here, just a discussion amongst men who like to shoot the biggies. Well, I take that back, I've yet to try anything in the 550, 600 OK, or 585 ShoulderKiller class.

GaryVA,
You need to chill out there is no arguement here, just friends talking about guns, if we all agreed on every point, it would be a worthless thread, Hell Phil is my business partner, and a very good friend of mine, I have all the respect in the world for him, have for years...He does not require me to agree with him on anything, nor I him...mostly we do agree, in fact we both believe that you can kill any animal on earth with a 30-06, but some would challange us on that one!

Phil Shoemaker... who's Phil Shoemaker and what the heck does he know???



Hey, Ray.. When you make that .458 WM on the Argentine.. cut your price about a grand and I'll buy it from you. That is, if it has a clean bore!

BTW, I shot my .458 today with the Hornady Heavy Mag loads in 94 degree heat. No sticking, good feeding and velocity was 2211 fps from my Whitworth. Not so bad.

JudgeG
Shame on you.
What are you doing shooting that Bolt Rifle Trash???

I would certainly agree with Phil that the standard 458 mag is potent enough to handle anything. I chrono'd Winchester factory loads back in the late 80's that were all well over 2000 fps, as I recall, they were very close to 2100, but I would have to dig my records out. Many people claimed through the 90's that factory ammo would barely top 1900, but I never found any that low. One of the complaints about the early ammo was that WW used ball powder that was a compressed load. Some articles I read said that African game scouts that were cropping elephants were having problems with these loads caused by rough care and banging around in trucks which served to compact the powder further into a solid mass, that caused missfires and squibs. This was one of the problems Mr. Lott was trying to overcome by developing the longer case, to allow the use of powders that were not usable normally because of the limited capacity of the standard case. I had great luck with Norma 202 and 500 gr. Hornady bullets attaining the requisite 2150 fps with no pressure signs in the standard .458. As to the chamber issues, I had my reamer made by JGS,in the late 80's. They originally made Mr. Lotts reamer, so I guess the chambers that I lengthened are to the old specs. Does anyone know what the specific changes are? The last .458 that I rechambered was a Whitworth and we had worked up some good loads before rechambering to the Lott, so we had some good comparison data. With a 24" barrel, we almost achieved 2200 with the .458, but we easily achieved 2380 with the Lott, while we don't have an Oehler with the pressure feature, we were using the old standard of miking the pressure "belt", observing primer condition, and sectioning cases(Bell) after five and ten reloads. We used an Oehler 33 and all loads were tested during summer conditions here in TX, which meant high 90's to low 100's. We also chrono'd some of the Superior brand Lott ammo and were surprised by how low the velocities were, just over 2200 with 500 gr. as I recall. One of the things Mr. Lott was trying to achieve with his cartridge, was to improve its viability as an "All Around" African cartridge that could be utilized for lighter game if need be, out to 200 yds or better. I have a letter from Mr. Lott from 1993 to a fellow Houstonian that gives much information about his goals for the round and what it achieved. He worked with David Miller to develop the load to achieve 2300 fps. in a 23" barrel. If y'all are interested, I can scan this letter and the load info that is on the David Miller Co. letterhead that he included. Let me know if there is enough interest. I enjoy this kind of discussion, but am always amazed at how touchy folks can become when you disagree with them. It is all healthy discussion, and one persons results with one or two guns can certainly differ from anothers. I was also really into shooting and loading for several wildcats from the late 70's through the mid ninety's but the Muscle car/drag racing bug bit me again and I had to go relive my teenage years. I need to go out in the shop and dig out all the data that I worked up for .375, H&H & Wthby. 416 Hoffman(now Remington for all practical purposes) and .458 Win Mag and Lott. Anyways, Good Thread! Lee.

Sure there is enough interest. Scan away.

Thanks Phil and Gary, after about an hour of trying (don't ask) I am in contact to some extent with Betty, of Wolfe Publishing.

The best powder listed in the ADI book for .458 WM is 2206H which I didn't have so I used the second best 2206 (ordinary.)

Someone stole 2" of my barrel, it's only 22" must have been the last on a line at Win.

So a factory Win solid 500 gr gave 1900fps.
My reload 500gr Hornady soft gave 2063.
With a 24" barrel the manual shows 2185.
For 2206H the manual shows 2205.
Heck if a 30-06 will do, all I have to do is shoot straight.
John L>

quote:

QED. In the case of the Lott and the Win. Mag. the velocity advantage will be in the range of at least 150-200 fps.

Its exactly 220 fps with ident powders,ident pressures,ident barrel length.....If these actual tests over a chrony mean anything

I´m sure that the .458 WM can handle all game in the world with todays powder and factory loads or handloading. But if we like to compare the 458 WM and 458 Lott we should do it by using the best powder for each one. As an example 45-70 use same powder as 458 WM, and give 300 to 400 fp/s less than 458 WM with the same pressure. 45-90 gives 200 to 300 fp/s more than 45-70 at the same pressure and same powder.

Vihtavouri loads for 458 WM.
Hornady 500 grain, N 135, 2060 fp/s at 52.200 PSI
Hornady 500 grains, N 140, 2100 fp/s at 52.200 PSI
Hornady 500 grain, N 530, 2149 fp/s at 52.200 PSI

458 Lott has been tested by Belgium proofhouse with following data.
Hornady 500 grain, N 135, 2205 fp/s at 52.982 PSI
Hornady 500 grain, N 540, 2402 fp/s at 52.200 PSI
Hornady 500 grain, N 140, 2211 fp/s at 46038 PSI

The best powder from Vihtavouri give 2149 fp/s in 458 WM at 52.200 PSI, and the best powder from Vihtavouri for the 458 Lott give 2402 fp/s at 52.200 PSI. Trim lenght for the Lott was 2.81"

There is no problem to se the difference between 458 WM and 458 Lott from those data.

I don´t know what pressure Swift company use as maxload for the 458 WM, but they get following data.
400 grain A-frame, Reloader 15, 2410 fp/s
450 grain A-frame, Hogdon 4895, 2292 fp/s
500 grain A-frame, Hogdon 335, 2116 fp/s

Belium Proofhouse 458 Lott and Swift bullets
400 grain A-frame, 2587 fp/s
500 grain A-frame, N 135, 2142 fp/s at 52.692 PSI
500 grain A-frame, N 540, 2303 fp/s at 52.402 PSI

In my 458 WM I only use Accurate powder. Their loading data for Hornady 500 grains is:
Accurate 2015, maxload 68 grains, 2149 fp/s at 49.200 CUP
Accurate 2230, maxload 72 grains, 2159 fp/s at 45.600 CUP
Accurate 2460, maxload 74 grains, 2192 fp/s at 44.800 CUP

When I tested those loads in my 458 WM with 26" barrel I got the following velocity
Accurate 2230, 68 grains, 2126 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2230, 70 grains, 2166 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2230, 71 frains, 2174 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2230, 72 grains, 2162 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2230, 73 grains, 2231 fp/s, slight compression (0.0165"), head expansion

Accurate 2460, 68 grains, 2133 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2460, 70 grains, 2129 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2460, 72 grains, 2141 fp/s, no compression, no pressure signs
Accurate 2460, 73 grains, 2174 fp/s, slight compression (0.0035"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2460, 74 grains, 2189 fp/s, slight compression (0.0255"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2460, 75 grains, 2233 fp/s, slight compression (0.0525"), head expansion

Accurate 2520, 74 grain, 2122 fp/s, slight compression (0.0255"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2520, 75 grain, 2160 fp/s, slight compression (0.050"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2520, 76 grain, 2153 fp/s, compression (0.0815"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2520, 77 grains, 2189 fp/s, compression (0.0980"), no pressure signs
Accurate 2520, 78 grains, 2217 fp/s, compression (0.1220"), no pressure signs

Winchester factory load 2007 fp/s

All primers was flat as Winchesters factory load, but not more than that. When I used more than maxload with Accurate 2230 and 2460 (73 grains and 75 grains) the primers where real flat, and I got head expansion. So it´s not safe to use even one grains more over maxload even if they don´t show more than 44.000 CUP with their maxload. I would say that 458 WM is safe for 2150 fp/s with right powder, but not more than that. Those ball powders don´t like compression at all. Usually I use a tool to make brass for the 458 WM cylindrical, and then I necksizing them with a necksizing die for 45-90. After that I don´t need any compression when I use even maxloads. Norma load their 458 WM just below 50.000 CUP, and get 2150 fp/s without any problem.

This is not to use as reloading data, and I take no responsibility if anyone use it as reloading data and blow up their rifle.

My conclusion is: There is no problem at all to get 2150 fp/s well below 53.000 CUP with 458 WM and Hornady 500 grains bullet, and it´s enough for anything in this world. With the right powder you get there well below 50.000 CUP.

With right powder you get 2350 fp/s out of 458 Lott well below 53.000 CUP with Hornady 500 grains bullet, and you get 2300 fp/s well below 50.000 CUP.

You get 150 to 200 fp/s more out of 458 Lott, all you have to do is to use the right powder for that cartridge. It´s up to you to decide if it´s worth it when you know that 458 WM is all you need, and those 150 or 200 fp/s gonna to let you know that they are there. I shot very well with my 458 WM in 9.25 pounds and 500 grains bullets at 2150 fp/s, but if I had a 458 Lott in that rifle I´m sure it would be to much.

Kalle

I have been checking velocities of factory ammo in two 458 rifles. One 458 Win and another in 458 Lott. Both rifles have 22" barrels. Temperature was 60 to 65 deg F.

458 Win, Winchester 510 gr soft, advertised velocity 2040 fps. Actual velocity X = 1981 fps. sd = 21 fps.

458 Win, Federal 500 gr Woodleigh solid, advertised velocity 2090 fps. Actual velocity X = 2011 fps. sd = 21 fps.

458 Win, Hornady 500 gr solid advertised velocity 2260 fps. Actual velocity X = 2089 fps. sd = 7 fps.

458 Lott, Hornady 500 gr solid advertised velocity 2300 fps, Actual velocity 2202 fps sd = 7 fps.

The difference (113 fps.) in short barrel rifles (22") between the Hornady loads is much more then then Hornady and Phil Shoemaker report (40 fps.). I think it will be noticeable in both penetration and thump power on elephants also it is definately noticeable in recoil.

I have a 24" barreled 458 Win coming in the next couple of days and will repeat the experiment this week. I will also look at pressure levels between these loads at 65 deg F vs 95 deg F expected here this week.

465H&H

quote:

Bigger cases, at the same pressure, go faster..

So, to get 2300+ fps but have low pressure the key must be 450 Rigby Rimless

Cheers
/JOHAN

First of all... Great thread guys, I love these discussions and also to Phil I want to say I enjoyed his article in Rifle magazine alot. Real world velocities can be very interesting with factory ammo.

My 24" Ruger M77 gives me 2125fps over my chrono with the 500gr Hornady RN Interbond using 66.0gr of Re7 and a CCI250. I can still hear the powder rattle in the case when I shake the round and it shows NO signs of pressure. I haven't tried to push it any further simply because this is the "standard" for that round and that's plenty.

The resultant 458 WM velocity for a 500 gr. bullet depends on the rifle and the brand of bullet. Hornady's suggested load of Varget with their 500 gr. FMJ gets pretty close at about 2110 fps in my rifle but if goosed a bit it will do 2150 fps. The same but using 500 gr. AGS solids requires about 3 grains more.

So 2150 fps is achievable without high pressures. Whether 2150 fps is "enough" is debatable.