Posted this for Die Ou Jagter

The action and barrel look great the stock doesn't do a thing for me.

I much prefer mine black Syt, stainless steel ruger mkII,

That stock is "just wrong."

I like ugly rifles, but only if they are functional, which includes accuracy.

Fact: A thumbhole stock is a bad idea on a DGR.

Must be just for target shooting at the range, or a shop mule for load development?

Wrong, just plain wrong.

Agreed ... blah stock!
Cheers...
Con

my grandmother told me once "...if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all...".

my comment:..........................

Rich

I love it!

LD

Good work, You know, it's not what I would build for me...

but with a thumbhole and a brake, I bet it weighs nil and kicks about the same... nil.

jeffe

Looks like very good work. While I would use a stock like that in a heart beat on a more target or varmint style rifle that combo doesn't work for me.

But if everyone had the same taste it sure would be a boring place.

Thanks for the opinions. I didn't totally like the paint job but it grows on you. As to the thumbhole I guess some of you will just have to catch up with the times. Once you have used one you will never want to go to and old fashion stock. My 338, 375 both have TH stocks so why shouldn't the 416T. Years ago I couldn't stand the stainless composite gun but times change and so does ones ideas. A blued and beautiful walnut stock is still the nicest but man with comp stocks you don't have to worry about dings and dents. The paint job is a great camo for Africa. It is a light gun and I don't have to show what a macho guy I am so yes the various compensators for recoil. I haven't fired it yet still having loads made. I hope I did't offend the senses of too many.

Why not a thumbhole stock on a DGR?

quote:

Why not a thumbhole stock on a DGR

I believe most would say that it slows down the second shot. Be it very little. You must bring the hand back then up instead of just up. Then you must re-insert your thumb.

I built a thumbhole for my outfitter in CO. I played with it. Once you get used to it I didn't see it as that much slower. But I did have to think about it as I tried to work the action quickly. Once the pattern is trained into your muscles and mind there's probably not much different. But then again I didn't have anything charging me at the time.

Like I said above if everyone liked the same rifle it sure would be boring. It floats your boat so enjoy.

ramrod340, once you get use to the T/H stock and pick up a straight stock you ram your thumb into the stock. It becomes second nature. I am seeing more and more T/H stocks on the market every day. I know I like them. If I could afford it I would put them on most of my guns - classics excluded.

Love the caliber! Let us know hoe it shoots.

Slows the second shot and makes for more motion and potential fumbling to get the safety off for the FIRST SHOT TOO.

Two Wongs don't make a white.

Hopefully the spindly pillars above and below the thumbhole have steel rods in them so as not to break from recoil.

Definitely not a DGR stock. O.K. for target rifles.

Neat rifle. I'd like to take it for a whirl at the range. Love the calibre/cartridge. The zebra camo pattern is interesting...not my thing, but it might grow on me. I've never tried a TH stock on a kicker...will reserve judgement on that until I do, although I can see the point about it being a little slower on the followup shots.

Hope it shoots well for you!

Cheers,
Canuck

It sounds like it's going to be a gun you will love!

It looks like you put some time and thought into it and and that's where half the fun is!!

Tell me a little about it, (I want to built a 416 Taylor in the future) - What action it's built on, trigger, who makes that stock, ETC.

About a year ago I tried my first thumb hole stock - on an Encore rifle. It took a little getting used to, but has been fun, and I learned a few things. I found out quickly that it is not the stock for me when I have the big bore barrel attached. The recoil jams my thumb too much because it has no where to go. Could just be the way I hold the rifle. With calibers .308 and smaller, it is fun to shoot, and very steady off hand.

After all, I don't consider the Encore a DG gun anyway.

From my experience with the Encore, I have no intentions of purchasing another thumb hole stock.

I sure do like the 416 Taylor though.

Regards,
KB

Riodot, it is built on a Santa Barbara Mauser action (which I bought here in the classifieds), the stock is mfg by MPI stocks. This is the third rifle I have stocked with the MPI thumbhole stock (ambedrexous style (sp)) the two others are 338 winmag and a 375 H & H (so much for big bores and T/H) which I took my buf in 05. Leupold 1X4 on Leupold QD . Limb Saver recoil pad, replaced the saftey with M70 3 position.NECG express with fiber optic rod. Barrel 21". As to the ability to stand up to the recoil, I will find out when I get to run some thru, but the mfg. guarantees them. Oh yea my muzzle loaders are T/H.

If a thumb hole stock rocks your boat then have at it. You are the kind of guy I like at my set of tables because the kind of things you like will not tempt me and vica versa. The thumb hole stock will eventually go the way of the Calafornia Wave roll over stock and the Weatherby slope only appealing to a few. I do like your choice of calibers. I have one and it has accounted for over 30 head of big game in Africa and is still going strong. My wife shoots the 416 Taylor in Africa. Last year she took a record book Waterbuck in Zambia with it. She did creap the stock on the finisher shot in low light and got a Swarovski eye liner from the deal. Her three favorite rifles are a 300 H&H, a 9.3x62, and the Taylor. She is flat deadly with them all. I wish I had her eyes now.

Yes, that would be a COOL stock on a different type of rifle.

The rest of that .416 Taylor SCREAMS "DGR."

As a follow up to this string the 416 is not bad to shoot, and after returning from Africa this spring I had my 338WM THS stripped and re done to match the 416 above. Very nice looking pair for Africa.

Is that a nice hardwood floor you have, or is it that dang click-together crap to go with your synthetic THS.

That is stick togeather crap which blends with the fake marble, but the marble matches the real marble in my desk. The good thing about the stick togeather crap is I saved enough vs the real hardwood to pay for a good safari.

I THINK MOST OF US TALK TOO MUCH AND DO TOO LITTLE. HAVE WE TAKEN SAY 5 GUYS WITH THUMBHOLES AND FIVE WITH NORMAL STOCKS IN OTHERWISE IDENTICAL RIFLES AND HAD THEM SHOOT HEAD TO HEAD BEFORE WE CAME TO A CONCLUSION? I HAVE FOUND THAT MOST OPINIONS DON'T HOLD WATER WHEN PUT TO THE TEST. I WAS VERY SURPRIZED ABOUT HOW MANY OLD TRUTHS FLEW OUT THE WINDOW WHEN WE TESTED DOUBLS AGAINST BOLTS HEAD ON. ME - I LIKE TRADITIOAL STOCKS, BUT @#%$ I HATE MAINTAINING THEM IN PLACES WHERE RUST STARTS BETWEEN SUNRIZE AND SUNDOWN ON THE METAL AND THE STOCK LOOKS AS IF IT HAD BEEN DRAGGED BEHIND A TRUCK ON A DIRT ROAD BY EVENING.

Pierre,
Why the shouting in capital letters?
I Prefer synthetic and blackened stainless. Still can't get myself used to the idea of a thumbhole on anything other than a small bore.
John Buhmiller said his good health into his eighties was due to using a 4-to-6-shot bolt action in elephant and buffalo control work instead of a two-shot double.

Ahw Just happend to have caps lock on. Shall I repeat it all in lower case an 4 pt font?

quote:

I WAS VERY SURPRIZED ABOUT HOW MANY OLD TRUTHS FLEW OUT THE WINDOW WHEN WE TESTED DOUBLS AGAINST BOLTS HEAD ON.

Pierre,

Please elaborate!

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck. Would you care to wait for my 2nd book? Gotta make some dough. Some facts though:
1. Doubles failed as often as bolt actions. So much so for alleged superior reliability of two guns as opposed to one;
2. Bolt actions were faster (on average) on first shot than doubles and we only talk hits - not just throwing lead. So much so for pointability, balance etc;
3. Doubles require vastly more (and complicated) maintenance than bolt actions to remain remotely reliable.
Does this mean that I say that a bolt is superior to a double? NO! What I say is that once you truly pit things against each other on extended and comparable basis - much of what we have heard and parrot wihout personal knowledge and experience turns out hogwash.
What is best - double or bolt? Depends on the situation (nature of crisis), the ability and preference of the hunter and the maintenance history of the firearm. Much more complicated than the opinion that the double will always hold sway. Why did Buhmiler swear buy the bolt and Taylor by the double? Because neither always holds the crown. We must stop generalizing and parroting. Lets get down to testing and rewrite the truth. Lets go myth busting. For example - logic says a RN solid should penetrate deeper than a semi-wadcutter. Why then does actual testing come up with a reverse answer? Because logic is based on parrotting rather than empiral data. We for example parrot that sectional density is a bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches. What nonsense. Go back to quality scientific text books and you wil soon realize that sectional density is a bullet's weight in pounds divided by its CROSS SECTIONAL AREA. If we don't even have the formula right because we all parrot (and I am a parrot too so let nobody please feel victimized) how the heck can we even remotely get the value or importance of the concept right? For the record. I am not pretending to be the clever guy. In fact, it is because really clever guys considered ignoramusses in theory showed me the error of my mediocre ways in practice that I have grown perified of practically untested opinions. These guys were not gunwriters and reverred experts. They were just plain field active guys who were kind enough to come to me and say: 'Can I show you something because you may be wrong?' I believed in everything the masses believe in (and still do in many instances because I have not had the benefit of testing and comparison so I still probably parrot dozens of myths). I am just saying that we all mostly parrot what we have heard or think and that does not do anybody good. Marshall McLuhan said that: 'A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when confronted by insight and understanding.' I have learnt through considerable embarrassment and personal experience that parroting can be very humiliating. Let's back our views by facts before selling it as gospel - not propaganda, not perceptions, not even alleged logic. We do no newcomer any favor by giving opinions based on theory. Respectfully - If I were Catholic, I would have had to confess my own guilt right now ...
So, before we damn Die Ou Jagter's gun for being Harry Lawson derivative, let's verify the facts. So by the way Ou Jagter, if you originally hail from my neck of the woods (Africa), come clean you ole bastardo!

Pierre vd Walt for president!

pierre... this could be a verrrry long thread now

when you say $40,000 double guns are not as good as the $1,000 bolt ones things tend to get "interesting" to say the least

boom stick,
Phew ... lucky you said $1000 bolt ones and not $700 Remingtons. I'll let someone else compare to the even cheaper Marlin 45/70's
Cheers...
Con

well say a good Kimber bolt rifle...

Boom Stick. I hope I have ignited some fires, but also that I have done so in good spirit. Now let's go to the following scenario talking the bucks issue you raised. Mauser makes a .500 Jeffery on a Mauser action and fits it with a Krupp barrel. It exports the metal to England and they add a stock and sights to it and sells it to you for £75000. Using modern financial transpolations - Mauser makes a .500 Jeffery on a Mauser action and fits it with a Krup barrel and fits it with a stock and sells it to you for £2000 - which is the better gun? Let us assume the wood is the same and the English fit better. Is the fit worth £ 73,000? Is cost or quality decisive. I am going on record to state emphatically (making enemies in the process which I would rather avoid) that I can buy at least ten American made guns on a GMA Mauser action with a Krieger barrel (all integral sights an ribs) on an exhibition grade Turkish walnut blank fitting me perfectly for the same price? And I bet you they will function as well - at the very least. So, yes, I am saying that an American made bolt for £15,000 bolt will buy you a better gun than an English £75,000 if you ue the right artisans. I am also saying that a £40,000 English double will fail you as WELL as a £10,000 Spanish one if you don't maintain it better than you wife - excuisitely. I am speaking use here - not investment. I am also saying that £40,000 may not be the best investment given all situations, and that you may be better off in some instances with a US$ 2000 bolt action. Problem is - you can't pick the situation but odds are that a bolt will serve you better than a double- but fortunately these days you guys have PH's tasked with keeping the paw-paw off the fan. And NO - I don't guide unless for personal friends so I am not promoting any business! Problem is - if you need a bolt and have a double you could end up dead. Other problem is that if you need a double and have a boltyou may also die. Fact is - when last did anybody die because he opted for a bolt rather than a double or vice versa? Let's examine the facts - not the opinions.
Kimber? Kimber? Kimber? I have a first generation Kimber M-89 De Luxe in .375 H&H Mag. Best factory rifle I have ever used if you include looks. That is why I bought an M-82 in .22H and and M-84 in .223.

An old saw has it that 99% of the time a bolt action is best for the job.
It's that 1% of the time a double will save your bacon.

What percentage of the time will the double get you killed when a bolt action would save the day?

Can this probability be assessed any better than the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin?

Thumbhole stocks? Please! Why bother a field test of practicality. They are patently ridiculous on a big bore!!!

It is not like we are all torn up about whether to restock our big boomers with thumbholers or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Pierre vd Walt:
Canuck. Would you care to wait for my 2nd book? Gotta make some dough.

Pierre,

Dedicate some space to the 470 Mbogo and you'll sell me a couple copies!

I am with ya on the "parroting" too. Real practical trials/testing is the answer.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Pierre vd Walt:
Canuck. Would you care to wait for my 2nd book? Gotta make some dough.

Pierre,

Dedicate some space to the 470 Mbogo and you'll sell me a couple copies!

I am with ya on the "parroting" too. Real practical trials/testing is the answer.

Cheers,
Canuck

And the 577 BME

Hi - I am back from the hospital. You guys twisted my arm so hard that it dislocated I will see what I can do, but in the end it is in the hands of the publisher and I am not in the league where I can publish myself. Where are the rich young chicks looking for a sugardaddy when I need them RIP - for the record - My big bores do not wear thumbholes for reasons of my own, but boy am I scared to be dogmatic about it. Other question - have we asked Die Ou Jagter whether he ever intends bringing that gun to Africa? If he has no such intentions - perhaps there is a lot of system in his madness.

Hi Pierre,
I know what you mean when you talk about parroting. We always have to hear about the double versus the bolt rifle. We have video of bolt guns during rapid AIMED fire and keep asking for some of the double rifle guys to show us some video of a four shot rapid fire sequence with their doubles but it never happens. The other is the 2400 fps velocity myth that dates back to bullet construction 50 years ago. When you talk about driving the new style bullets like the Swift A-Frame or North Forks at 2500 or 2600 fps someone will come up with the 2400 fps velocity quote. I read in the A-Square manual that Art Alphin tried a 495 A-Square with a thumbhole stock but ended up with tendon damage to his thumb. So there must be a limit recoil wise for this design.
Take good care,
Dave

I am with ya on the "parroting" too. Real practical trials/testing is the answer.

Cheers,
Canuck[/QUOTE]

If we killed the Parrots there would be a lot less posting here on AR

quote:

If we killed the Parrots there would be a lot less posting here on AR

To quote a line from Homer J. Simpson..."Thats funny cuz its true!"

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
We have video of bolt guns during rapid AIMED fire and keep asking for some of the double rifle guys to show us some video of a four shot rapid fire sequence with their doubles but it never happens. Take good care,
Dave

Well worth repeating! Emphasis mine, of course.

All intended in the name of constructive discussion and learning, but often taken as blasphemy and insults from the non-cogniscenti.

I still think it would be very education to all.

As my favorite prof always said (and I am sure he was quoting someone famous, but I don't know who)..."The purpose of an eduction is to replace and empty mind with an open one.".

Cheers,
Chris