got the stock pictures to Jeffe. He will be posting them shortly. You will need to view them yourself to get the full impact.

Rich

PS: I can understand why gunsmiths get grey hair now... Spend parts of three or four days getting the extractor cut just right and fiddling with the bolthead and extractor to get the magazine to pick up the round out of the magazine.

Here ya go ...




you know, you are going to have to be taken inhand on the bubba gunsmithing thing, right?

good show idahosharpshooter

are those rounds yer 510KE???

like love the barrel!!!

Jeffe,

you are just jealous because you cannot wrap duct tape that evenly!

Boomstick,

Those are 510KX rounds next to a 180gr 308 round.

I am making bullets one at a time on the lathe...that is a re-definition of obsessive/compulsion. Tying to get a two grease groove, .34 caliber meplat design to send to a mould maker at finish wt 600gr. Current model is at 614gr less gascheck and lube.
Stay tuned kids, next week we start cutting a blank out uf a 16" x 48" x 3" thick slab of 85year old wood. Was once a step going up to the second floor of the smokehouse.

regars,

Rich

almost forgot, the cheap, (dare I say it?) tawdry input from my buddy Jeff Pfeifer who took the pictures and got them to Jeffe...
He asks if I remember the Haggar brand beltless slacks marketed as "Sans-A-Belt"? He has this notion that we should rename the cartridge the
510 Sans-a-belt EXpress Cartridge.

regards,

Rich

hint: take the four capitol letters and... oh yeah!

Can I get that stock for a pattern?

Looks like a good start to a great project!

Rich,
If the shoulder of your case is the same as the .510 Wells, then you have about 0.013" of shoulder step on each side.

That is same as the 10.75x68mm Mauser, the smallest factory loaded shoulder ever on a rimless and beltless cartridge.

What is the shoulder angle and neck length of the .510 Wells supposed to be?

Have you really just removed the belt from a .510 Wells without expanding the base a few thousandths back to full Rigby head diameter?

You have been rather evasive about your specs, saying only that it is a .510 Wells without the belt.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Good work otherwise.

You can tell the skill of the craftsman by the lack of wrinkles in the duct tape. Good job

Dare I point out that Duck tape is available in Camo?


Very good start on a wonderful bit of big bore fun...

Rip,
iirc, he said it was a wells, sans belt, and would be using wells dies.. i think he posted words to that effect on the reamer, that it would be a wells- belt.


Rich,
about the only time I get duct tape even is when I'm floating a barrel!!!
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rip,
iirc, he said it was a wells, sans belt, and would be using wells dies.. i think he posted words to that effect on the reamer, that it would be a wells-belt.

Jeffe,
We know that, but we have not heard mention of the Wells base diameter just above the belt being 0.582" (max) ...

... whereas the .416 Rigby base diameter is 0.589" and rim 0.590" (max) ...

... So, to use Rigby basic brass to make .510 Kayser Express will require sizing down the entire head and turning off the rim a bit, unless it is to be semi-rimmed.

I would just like to hear how this works.

Plus, I cannot find the neck length and shoulder angle of the .510 Wells at present, so if some helpful NUT knows it, that would be appreciated.

All of this will further understanding of the .510 Kayser Express, a noble endeavor, amongst We Band of NUTs.

One could do a beltless 500 A-square and end up with a slightly better shoulder (35 degrees and .016" per side), but shorter neck that is only about 0.393" long.

well my concept a2 sans a belt (500 boom stick) has more shoulder and the 505 f.h. (from hell, a2 sans a belt necked down to 505 able to use a2 loads) has a smidge more... i am feeling pretty good about that. the 500 mbogo is still a more neeto factor though.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
well my concept a2 sans a belt (500 boom stick) has more shoulder and the 505 f.h. (from hell, a2 sans a belt necked down to 505 able to use a2 loads) has a smidge more... i am feeling pretty good about that. the 500 mbogo is still a more neeto factor though.

Boomer,
You get the trademark rights for the 500 BS and .505 FH.

Dave Estergaard can have the rights to the 500 Mbogo, but I am building the first one I know of.

rip... i am suprised he has not made one

i applaud you for taking up this great mantle

i think the 500 mbogo could be even more popular than the 470 but that time will tell.

b.t.w. for anyone interested the 500 b.s. has a .0155" shoulder per side and the 505 fh has a .018" not much but more than the 10.75x68 with the larger diameter there is more surface area too.

use a2 dies, loads ect and have the belt taken off the cases and reamer and viola! i am sure you could still use the a2 brass and barrel stamp for africa use

it would look almost identical to the 510KE above.

on that note...

why hasnt anyone done this with the 300 and 338 win mags, 375 h+h, 416 rem, 416 and 375 taylor???

do the same, trim off the belts and grind the reamer a bit and viola! use the same dies and loads.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
on that note...

why hasnt anyone done this with the 300 and 338 win mags, 375 h+h, 416 rem, 416 and 375 taylor???

do the same, trim off the belts and grind the reamer a bit and viola! use the same dies and loads.

Well, Boomy...
they did... the RUM and WSM cases.. but they one upped it and went with the 404 (ish) case as a basic.

and.. i hate to break this to you... magnum shooters (not just big bores) are probably less than 20% off all shooters... and 98% of them LIKE the belt, as it shows off that they have a MAG!!!... remember, the average shooter isn't a student of case design, they believe, and rightfully so, of faster and or bigger is better... and their remington 700s feed belted cases like no one's busines.

it's only us odd one's that have studied the deeper mysteries that begin to discover that there MAY be no need for a belt...


But, grasshopper... recall that a BELT is a RIM pulled up... with the rim being first....

and if the time has past for the belt, due to other case designs being available, what does that say for the RIM? You aren't going to through your 45-70 marlin in the trash over the 458 AR, are you? Nope...

Further clarification, the 300HH and perhaps the 375, DO use the belt to headspace, as well as the 458 win/lott and the capstick... most of the rest of the rounds can use the shoulder...


But, referring back to our unschooled magnum shooter, it's hard to convince him or his bauddies that a case without a belt can be the same or BETTER....

jeffe

There you have it: stockmaker extraordinaire and master metalsmith...work on display.
RIP,

sorry for the paucity of data, it is nothing, more or less, than the 510 Wells Express without the belt.
A twice-fired case measures .584" ust ahead of the extractor groove,.549" at the shoulder, .530" at the shoulder, .526" at the mouth, and the casemouth ID is .510

regards,

Rich

thanks el jeffe...

as my head hit the pillow last night (couldnt get to bed till 230 am cuzz i had an energy drink too late ) i thought about the "rim" issue...one thought was to leave it as to not mess with the bolt face and the new "rim" would lend well to single shots. the second was to take it down to the casehead so i would have a b.s.i. #1 and b.s.i.#2 (boom stick improved) and would have heavenly feeding/extraction.

el jeffe...if i had a say 300 win mag and took the belt off would there be any feeding issues to deal with???

with the the 500 a2 b.s.i. the rim is the same as the casehead so removing the belt is a no brainer.

thanks foh yoh wis dom ma sta po (the blind kung fu master)

i still have not snatched the pebble but i am getting close

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

... sorry for the paucity of data, it is nothing, more or less, than the 510 Wells Express without the belt.
A twice-fired case measures .584" ust ahead of the extractor groove,.549" at the shoulder, .530" at the shoulder, .526" at the mouth, and the casemouth ID is .510

Rich

Let's clarify
.510 Kayser Express

base diameter = .584" (O.K., slightly sized down Rigby)
shoulder diameter = .549" (lot of taper!??)
neck-1 diameter = .530" (neck at shoulder)
neck-2 diameter = .526" (neck at case mouth)
neck-2 inside diameter = .510", bullet diameter
(rather thin walled neck brass of .008" at the mouth)

Shoulder step per side = (.549" - .530")/2 = .0095"

That is smaller than the 10.75x68mm!
That is smaller than the .400 Whelen!

Surely you have made a typo!

Rich, did you mean .559" or .569" for the shoulder diameter? Surely not 0.549"! Your pictured case looks better than that!

What is the neck length and shoulder angle, for the umpteenth time?

oh, also the 460 wby mag b.s.i. improved has now been trademarked

yeah rich, i thought the measurements were off too...

rip, when is the mighty 500 mbogo going to breathe fire???

Boomer,
My smith went to work for the Remington Arms Skunkworks R&D, so it has slowed him down on his work for me. He has been scooting around the country too, even to Arkansas for some top secret mission. He has to kill me if he tells me anything about the skunkworks, so I am waiting patiently on three of my projects, and I have a couple more after that.

The pics of the 500 KX, and the number's Rich supplied don't add up as to the specs in J.J. Donnelly's book, but Donnelly's numbers are not as reliable as Ken Howell's, which I don't have access to right now.

Per Donnelly, the .510 Wells:

case length = 2.88"
head diam. = .582"
rim diam. = .582"
neck diam. = .534"
neck length = .430"
shoulder length = .11"
body angle (degrees/side) = .295 degrees
case capacity (cc's): 9.55

loaded length = 3.644"
belt diam. = .603"
rim thickness = .062"
shoulder diam = .560"
length to shoulder = 2.34"
shoulder angle degrees/side = 6.74 degrees
water capacity (grains) = 147.37

Is this a case of nonstandard specs for the .510 Wells reamer used to create the 500 KX, or some home cooking by Rich? Another Donnelly screw-up?

The 500 KX neck looks longer and the shoulder angle greater than the Donnelly specs. Also, the 500 KX shoulder diameter must surely be greater than 0.549" stated by Rich. Typo?

What say you, Rich?

so the 500 b.s. and the 510KE are pretty much identical but mine has a 35 degree shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
thanks el jeffe...

as my head hit the pillow last night (couldnt get to bed till 230 am cuzz i had an energy drink too late )

You make me laugh!

glad to entertain

if you look at the 510ke it looks like a scale 10.75x68

Rich,
is the mill a wells index, or a bp turret? Seems a little smaller than a series 1
jeffe

I'm baaaaaaaaaaack. Had to run over to Portland on business.

I am getting a Pacific Reamer print for y'all.
It was a myocardial infarction measurement: the shoulder mikes .559". Comparing the 510KX to one of my fired (RSM) 416 cases, the KX case is .584" vs .586 at the base, .559" vs .542", neck at shoulder is .534" vs .447" and mouth ID is .510" vs416".
RIP, et al, not to obfuscate, but all I did was call Dave at PR and tell him to cut me a 510 Wells reamer minus the belt.

I got a stockmaking class to go to, will report back this PM.

Rich