quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
"Indians Vow to Endeavor to Persevere" until the truth is known.
THERE IS IRON IN THOSE WORDS
like beef in the bun.

RIP

I knew you would pick up on that!!! Excellent observation! I always thought that was a great scene, with great words.

I gotta watch that again soon, been a long time!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:


Bullets in the above photo:
1. standard Barnes RN Mono
2. #1 but with grooves to move CG forward of CF
3. #1 with FN and second crimp groove (0.325" meplat)
4. #1 with hemisphere completely removed (0.448" meplat)
5. self designed "super semiwadcutter" (0.325" meplat)
6. #5 with relief grooves.

My notes indicate:
1. Capable of penetrating 2' straight and stable, keyhole at 3', always deviates outside of 24"square before 5' of penetration
2. Completely unstable. Believe it's moreso an issue of poor engraving leading to large angle of attack. Nonetheless, weight forward did nothing beneficial in target as entry baffle recorded a round hole.
3. Penetrated straight beyond ninth baffle, recovered resting on tenth.
4. GEYSER upon firing, penetrated beyond sixth baffle, recovered on seventh
5. & 6. Multiple shots, recovered between ninth and tenth baffle, always straight, always stable


Regarding different meplats on modified Barnes RN monos:
Standard RN - 2' stable, 2' wild, gone before 5'
0.275" meplat - stable beyond 10', not recovered
0.325" meplat - stable beyond 9', recovered before 10'
0.375" meplat - stable beyond 7', recovered before 8'
0.448" meplat - stable beyond 6', recovered before 7'

These were all fired in a 1:14 twist .458Lott, approximately 480 grain projectiles, loaded to approximately 2200fps, from 30' above the surface of the water.

PWS Very interesting post…I slightly edited your post in the quote and have added the metaplat percentages, taken from an unstated .458” groove diameter as these are not bore rider bullets:

Regarding different meplats on modified Barnes RN monos:
0.275" meplat - stable beyond 10', not recovered 60.0% metaplat
0.325" meplat - stable beyond 9', recovered before 10' 70.9% metaplat
0.375" meplat - stable beyond 7', recovered before 8' 81.8% metaplat
0.448" meplat - stable beyond 6', recovered before 7' 97.8% metaplat

It’s very interesting that your testing indicated the sweet spot at 60% metaplat with digressing penetration from 70.9% through 97.8% metaplat. While Michael’s testing seems to identify the sweet spot commencing at +65% metaplat; perhaps this will be better defined if/when he received the identical bullets with different metaplat sizes for testing.

PWS and Jim

I was busy from early am until late yesterday, so I missed all of yesterdays activities. However, PWS I did manage to see your test results and take great interest in them, and find what you did a very important beginning of our attempts to identify "Just what is a proper meplat size for our big bore rifles?" This I think is the next great step in our discoveries that I hope to start to unravel in the near future, as indicated in past posts. Excellent work, and thank you for the information.

I still have not heard on my bullets for various meplat sizes, same caliber and bullet weight. I knew this one was not going to be easy, so continue to be patient, I will get it done, but it will take some time to receive the proper bullets.

Thanks PWS, and Jim, the analysis thereof.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 31/2Makesmelaugh:
Instead of me reading 39 pages of posts (I have read most of them), could we get someone to summarize the proven knowledge that we have gleaned from these tests? How about a cliff-notes version?

Thanks a ton!

31/2Makesmelaugh?? What a handle LOL, makes me laugh too!

By the way, welcome to the thread! I assume you have been a "lurker". Glad to have you!

Michael

What's Life Without a Little Fun?

Oh No, he is at it again!

I can see you're losing it, Michael.......

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
GERARD

Before I forget, you asked some many posts ago what twist rate my 9.3s were, I only found out a few days ago, they are 1:12 twists.

Guys

As you see above I have now placed quite a bit of import to twist rates, where in the past I never really gave it much thought, nor concern. You can take it to the bank I intend to know more about my twist rates today, than I did 5 yrs ago! Today, I pay a great deal more attention to this factor as being one of very great import because of some of the things I have learned during the test work. Some will claim and have claimed that I waste my time here, I beg to differ with that. I don't see it that way at all. In fact, I wonder if those nay sayers are just too damn sorry and lazy to do the research, to make the effort and would just rather sit back and play "Bwana" and accept things as they have always been? Not me, I want to go to the field with the very best I can go with, I have a mission, I will not fail my mission, I will go to the field with the very best equipment, bullet, and knowledge possible in which to complete my mission in a proper manner! I wish to continue to learn what is best and I am, You others, do as you please.

Michael

Bravo!

I found this photo in the family album, I think it was one of my distant relatives, or ancestors. It appears he was studying a cartridge loaded with a Round Nose Full Metal Jacket of some sort, and decided that the bone club was a better penetrator, of course this being from the old days, some of those guys just would not let go of the past I think!

For those who want to read

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Lots of references.

More fun stuff to follow.

For those who want to go back to school

http://www.swri.org/pmsc/default.htm

Doc M,
Great halloween costumes. Pirate, minuteman, mountainman?
Elephant tibia?
I think you should have guided tours of "The Lab" charge admission and put on a show. Aim at diehard shooters whose wives are worried that they spend too much time at their hobby.
After seeing you in your lair, all those wives will be relieved at how "normal" their husbands are, and marital bliss will reign throughout the world. Amen.

Seriously, it is extremely gratifying to see twist get some credit finally, after all the years of "twist wars" and the wrong spin on twist from some spin doctors around here who had no beef in their buns, no iron in their words.

If I should produce evidence that a 10" twist .458 B&M does not improve penetration
versus a 20" twist .45-70, with the same bullet at same velocity, in SIM-TEST,
then I will stick my head up the ass of a goat.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
For those who want to read

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Lots of references.

More fun stuff to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
For those who want to go back to school

http://www.swri.org/pmsc/default.htm

IBT many thanks. The first link is of great interest.

Michael. I think you have mastered the art to have a good life and not take yourself too seriously but seriously at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by 31/2Makesmelaugh:
Instead of me reading 39 pages of posts (I have read most of them), could we get someone to summarize the proven knowledge that we have gleaned from these tests? How about a cliff-notes version?

Thanks a ton!

3 ½,

Michael458 has pretty well summed up the results of his in-depth testing, especially his comments that twist rate can overcome a FN metaplat of insufficient percent diameter as well as a properly designed FN monometal can overcome a slow twist rate for maximum straight-line penetration.

This latter statement is positively highlighted by a sequence of tests performed by DRSS member Mike70560 with his 470 NE double rifle. It is a very enlightening sequence; such that I sequenced the posts together in a single thread and posted them in the Double Rifles forum. Here’s a link for quick reading:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/7281027721

Again, thanks to Mike for sharing his results with the Big Bore forum…

quote:

For those who want to read

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Lots of references.

Yes, that's been one of my favorite sites for some time! I think it fell off somewhat after 2002.

quote:

For those who want to go back to school

http://www.swri.org/pmsc/default.htm

Oh, great! School!
I've missed playing hooky!

quote:

What's Life Without a Little Fun?

Oh No, he is at it again

I know it's your ancestors, Dr M, but the one with the black hair reminds me of the lead guitarist in Thin Lizzy. Just a coincidence I guess.

quote:

Regarding different meplats on modified Barnes RN monos:
Standard RN - 2' stable, 2' wild, gone before 5'
0.275" meplat - stable beyond 10', not recovered
0.325" meplat - stable beyond 9', recovered before 10'
0.375" meplat - stable beyond 7', recovered before 8'
0.448" meplat - stable beyond 6', recovered before 7'

These were all fired in a 1:14 twist .458Lott, approximately 480 grain projectiles, loaded to approximately 2200fps, from 30' above the surface of the water.

Thanks for sharing these test results!
FWIW, my penetration model didn't fare so well here with the water penetration.


Here are my predictions:

.275 meplat -- 11 feet (OK)
.325 " -- 8 feet (mkay)
.375 " -- 6 feet (somewhat off)
.448 " -- 4 feet (a good bit off)

Anyway, keep the tests comin', guys! My nipples are hard with expectation!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael. I think you have mastered the art to have a good life and not take yourself too seriously but seriously at the same time.

Absolutely ... I just pity the poor woman that puts up with him.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I can see you're losing it, Michael.......

Whitworth
No man, lost it a long time ago, even gave up looking for it anymore! It is what it is, but I don't know where it is?

Dwright
Thank you!

RIP

Yep, elehump leg! Oh yes, it's quite a show around here sometimes! You should see the things that go on when the sake is flowing and the Grey Goose gets half full, or is that half empty?

All my buddies wives end up telling them they can't play with me anymore, I get expensive! Oh it starts out well enough, but soon enough my buddies get caught up too, and they have to have a couple of B&Ms, sometimes more than a couple!

A twist war, how absurd! Can't be much of a war I reckon! Twist is there, it's a very large factor as we have been seeing of late! Zero doubt about that!

As for your upcoming tests I predict that the goat is very safe and need not have concerns!

Boomy

Thank you, I do try and life is not just good, it's incredible!!!! Having a blast every damn day!

Jim
Thanks for the support as always! Come now, must have a comment about todays photos?

Glenn
Thin Lizzy? Just how skinny is this gal? Does she know me?

Con my main Aussie Man! How are things downunder and how is that little project of yours going? I hope you have been paying attention to twist rates??????

Michael

Oh one more thing, I think IBT mentioned or asked if I was going to be in Charlotte for the NRA Convention? Well the answer is yes, I will be walking the floors that Friday afternoon and all day Saturday, if any of you guys are going to be there I would love to visit with you!

Michael

quote:

Thanks for sharing these test results!
FWIW, my penetration model didn't fare so well here with the water penetration.


Here are my predictions:

.275 meplat -- 11 feet (OK)
.325 " -- 8 feet (mkay)
.375 " -- 6 feet (somewhat off)
.448 " -- 4 feet (a good bit off)

Glad you picked up on the test media. I know it isn't game but it was free, reasonably consistent, and I had lots of it. .



Sorry to see that ALF has left due to the insults. His expertise offered a great chance at qualifying what us testers have been quantifying.

quote:

Glenn
Thin Lizzy? Just how skinny is this gal? Does she know me?

Oh, I dunno. I think she was someone else's gal.
Thin Lizzy was the rock group famous for the song "The boys are back in town."

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

What's Life Without a Little Fun?

Oh No, he is at it again

I know it's your ancestors, Dr M, but the one with the black hair reminds me of the lead guitarist in Thin Lizzy. Just a coincidence I guess.

quote:

Regarding different meplats on modified Barnes RN monos:
Standard RN - 2' stable, 2' wild, gone before 5'
0.275" meplat - stable beyond 10', not recovered
0.325" meplat - stable beyond 9', recovered before 10'
0.375" meplat - stable beyond 7', recovered before 8'
0.448" meplat - stable beyond 6', recovered before 7'

These were all fired in a 1:14 twist .458Lott, approximately 480 grain projectiles, loaded to approximately 2200fps, from 30' above the surface of the water.

Thanks for sharing these test results!
FWIW, my penetration model didn't fare so well here with the water penetration.


Here are my predictions:

.275 meplat -- 11 feet (OK)
.325 " -- 8 feet (mkay)
.375 " -- 6 feet (somewhat off)
.448 " -- 4 feet (a good bit off)

Anyway, keep the tests comin', guys! My nipples are hard with expectation!

Glenn,

Fully understanding that your test challenge is directed to the .458caliber FN bullets…but considering much of the background work being performed regarding metaplat size is to determine proper dimension percentages usable across the bullet caliber world...would you perhaps prefer change your exact metaplat size to dimension percentages?

Different meplats on modified .458 caliber Barnes RN monos:
0.275" meplat - 60.0% metaplat
0.325" meplat - 70.9% metaplat
0.375" meplat - 81.8% metaplat
0.448" meplat - 97.8% metaplat

Michael... just keep the ammo locked up when the Grey Goose is flying

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael... just keep the ammo locked up when the Grey Goose is flying

What should he do, with the Grey Goose when the ammo is flying?????

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim
Thanks for the support as always! Come now, must have a comment about todays photos?

Michael

Michael,

I thought perhaps the “real boss of the family” has had you warped up from watching the Olympics…is that a too-too under that labcoat?

You get back to those proper manly activities!

Keep it locked up

I think his 50 B&M would make good shot glasses.

Line up 20 of them and have a party.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael... just keep the ammo locked up when the Grey Goose is flying

What should he do, with the Grey Goose when the ammo is flying?????

Maybe Michel wasn't kidding when he said:

"I've got pics of me rolling naked in bullets"

Hey Bud, if you need some Meds, the Wife works at the state funny farm in Austin. I'll hook you up.

Cheers, John

No wonder Michael likes flat nose bullets over spitzers

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Maybe Michel wasn't kidding when he said:

"I've got pics of me rolling naked in bullets"

Hey Bud, if you need some Meds, the Wife works at the state funny farm in Austin. I'll hook you up.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Maybe Michel wasn't kidding when he said:

"I've got pics of me rolling naked in bullets"

Hey Bud, if you need some Meds, the Wife works at the state funny farm in Austin. I'll hook you up.

Cheers, John

Oh man, I love good drugs mixed with Grey Goose!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEH, Yippie!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael... just keep the ammo locked up when the Grey Goose is flying

Boomy, I shoot so much better after two or three shots of Goose! It's miracle shooting juice I say! Why hell, I have had targets on the south, shot north and hit them every time after a few hits of goose! I say turn the ammo loose with the Goose!

HEH!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim
Thanks for the support as always! Come now, must have a comment about todays photos?

Michael

Michael,

I thought perhaps the “real boss of the family” has had you warped up from watching the Olympics…is that a too-too under that labcoat?

You get back to those proper manly activities!

Don't mess with me! I got a tu-tu somewhere, I will put that thing on and take some photos for you guys if you want me to?????? Ain't nothing to me to do something like that! You know I am Scottish, I got meself one of those little scottish dresses too. I will see if I can find my little scottish dress, hmmmm, hope it's long enough, the dress that is?


Michael

Maybe being more relaxed under Goose juice makes you a better shot.

3 shots of Goose to to a better 3 shot group

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael... just keep the ammo locked up when the Grey Goose is flying

Boomy, I shoot so much better after two or three shots of Goose! It's miracle shooting juice I say! Why hell, I have had targets on the south, shot north and hit them every time after a few hits of goose! I say turn the ammo loose with the Goose!

HEH!

quote:

Glad you picked up on the test media. I know it isn't game but it was free, reasonably consistent, and I had lots of it.

And it doesn't require any preparation!

quote:

Glenn,

Fully understanding that your test challenge is directed to the .458caliber FN bullets…but considering much of the background work being performed regarding metaplat size is to determine proper dimension percentages usable across the bullet caliber world...would you perhaps prefer change your exact metaplat size to dimension percentages?

Different meplats on modified .458 caliber Barnes RN monos:
0.275" meplat - 60.0% metaplat
0.325" meplat - 70.9% metaplat
0.375" meplat - 81.8% metaplat
0.448" meplat - 97.8% metaplat
Wink

Huh?





Nah, I just use the meplat diameter period in a somewhat expanded version of the sectional density formula. It takes into consideration that the bullet has a round-shaped, flat surface area. Pretty much like the top of a cylinder. Then I go from there. Flat nosed bullets, like we've been seeing mostly, are the easiest to work with. Round nosed bullets are probably the hardest to evaluate because of their erratic performance in the real world testing that we've been seeing. (Real world testing trumps formulas any day of the week in my book.)

Mafunyane

Hi there, well looks like you got your rifle shooting to the same POI the other week! I do a lot of that sort of thing here, depending on what bullets and caliber I am trying to get to work with. Most of the time you can work it out. Sometimes it's a big more difficult, and sometimes especially getting much lighter bullets to shoot with heavy ones in near impossible.

Welcome
Michael

An observation, I think yesterday Jim posted Mikes test over on Double Rifles. Mike posted over there from the beginning with his tests. Jim has not even got a response yet, and Mikes thread is already off the front page of the forum. A lot of the posts on Mikes thread was about other North Fork bullets if they were available, and some even doing some trading of other bullets. Nothing to do with the test work.
Then there is discussion about the loads, one even wants Mikes load for the Woodleighs he tested? Want to know if the reduced load shot to the same POI as the standard loads? One could not believe the NorthFork looked as good as it does after shooting in the box! One wanted to shoot in oiled sawdust.

Now here is the funny part, they are having a discussion over there now, 470 vs 500 Penetration! The vast majority of the discussions are about the cartridges, and very very little of actual bullets used? So what are they doing, throwing cartridges at the animals?? I always thought the bullet did the actual work? One of the great knowledgeable experts there states that the 500 wins on elephants, 470 is worst of them all and if you have to shoot from the rear a 500/416 is the best? OK, does this have anything to do with a particular bullet? No mention of bullet at all, just the cartridge! Then another great expert goes on with "Penetration Index" and how 416 penetrates more than 470 and 470 penetrates more than 500, but penetration was only part of the story? Well what's the other part?
Then one talks about a 570 gr in the 500 NE how good it penetrated, but no mention of what sort of bullet? Talking about a solid, but no mention of the bullet? Is there only 1 570 gr .510 caliber solid bullet out there? Nah, I have a couple of different ones on my shelf now! I think the actual bullet is only mentioned a couple of times in the entire thread, the rest is vague and useless blah blah blah!

What a waste of energy! Do they not realize the cartridge is little more than a vessel in which the bullet is carried, and the bullet actually does the heavy work? The rifle is a platform, the cartridge is a vessel, the bullet does the work! It's about the bullets you dumb ass, not the cartridge! These are the same folks who post up on the African Forum, and the same folks you see walking around Safari Club, and the same folks you see writing their great hunting adventures in Safari Club, with little mention if any of even the rifle they were hunting with, much less the bullet that was used?

Also of note, there are not any of those that post or probably even view our terminal penetration thread, yet go over to the others and talk about penetration? Real experts I suppose, as opposed to us? Well they say, they have the real experience with shooting real animals! Heh! Got news for them! Pompous ass blow hards and ego boosting legends in their own minds! That's how I see it, and it's a big pet peeve of mine!

I started my hunting career late in life, hunted as a kid of course, a shooter from the age of 8. Shooter first, everything else is secondary! At 38 yrs of age I decided what do I have all these big bore rifles for if I don't go to the field with them? So I started a bit late in life, but I have more than caught up. I first went to the field and it was a great learning experience for me. I met hunters that did not have a clue as to even what sort of ammo they had, much less a bullet that was stuck in them. Oh, I don't know, picked it up at the WalMart before I come here? That was standard response! How can one do such? Did they even shoot the gun before coming? I have seen them not even know how to load the rifle, or how many rounds it held in the magazine. One chap was doing his best to stuff 4 rounds of 458 Winchester in a M70 that can only hold 3, but yet here he was hunting elephant? Huh? How does that work? It gets worse, the horror stories I have heard of these now so called "experts".

Every year one of my PHs puts out a little promotional DVD of the years hunts. I always get a copy. He has one "elephant Expert Hunter" that his goal in life is to kill 100 Elephants. So he hunts several elephants every year. Well he takes his trusty double 470 and shoots elephants, but has killed only about 30% of the ones he has shot, my PH friend gets to do the rest for him. But he is the great "Bwana" elephant hunter! So I asked exactly how many elephants he thought he was going to have to "Shoot" to actually kill 100 of them himself? Of course I got some funny looks at camp, huhhhh? Duhhhh? What a f&%&ing Joke!

Now we make a move North from our Big Bore forum and we see a thread on Stopping Power On Ele! Talk about some moving up to 600 NE and stopping power of certain calibers under a charge situation! One says this is better, that is better and so on. Then an expert states that 577 is penetrating deeper than 600.

All the time Boomy is up there (wasting his time) and mentions bullet design, solids, nose profiles, velocity, and even twist rates! He gets replies back as 577 has less surface area and penetrates deeper, then of course SD is the deciding factor, and then SD is figured by surface area or frontal area. Then it seems to go on to what cartridge worked on elephants as normal. Then how one cartridge penetrates better than another, more BS about one cartridge being better than the other and then one how great these posts are and how informative. Finally it seems our boy Boomy drops out of the thread, he never even got a response directed back to him concerning his efforts! Waste of energy, waste of time. Boomy, those sorts are not interested in what you have to say! Too busy with their own "Expert" advice and ego! All these "experts" make me tired, and are more boring than anything else. Of course sometimes always good for a laugh I suppose!

Had one of these "experts" around recently! Helping him sight in a rifle. 416 B&M to be exact. Well I sighted the rifle for him, I like these sort of rifles to be about an 1" high at 50, 1/2 inch will do if it's dead center. Just like things that way. So had this rifle perfect, dead perfect, shooting 5 rounds in a tiny hole dead center, about 3/4 inch high at 50. Over a period of a couple of days this fellow shooting rather well, but somehow the way he was holding the rifle it was hitting him a little hard, and he started pulling shots over to the left. Must be the scope right? Scope is now off, right? No, you are pulling the shots because you think it is knocking the shit out of you. No, thats not it, scope is off! OK, give me the rifle, 2 shots later, dead center, 3/4 inch high, just as it was two days ago! I keep targets on everything, every rifle that is being shot has a file. Target matches dead perfect to the one shot two days earlier. Later in the day, Oh, the scope is off, it's shooting a 1/4 inch higher than it was earlier. No man, scope is not off, and even if it was you can't shoot a 1/4 inch at 50 yds! Oh yes I can! OK, so you can, SHow Me? Ok now standing at 50 yds my "expert" shoots his first round and it goes 2 inches low and 3 inches right! OK Now must we adjust the scope for that shot???? I see my 1/4 inch now, just low and right! Give me a break! Lot's of "experts" out there, most of the time I just ignore them, but every once and awhile I call them to task, I suppose today is one of those days!
Of course I could be all wrong, according to the "experts" it's the cartridge and has shit to do with a bullet! I suppose you don't even need a rifle for that, just chunk some 500 NE cartridges at them and watch them fall over?

This is why I hardly ever even look at some of the other forums, unless I need a laugh. This is why if it were not for our big bore forum and some others down here on rifles, I would not be here at all! We have a very different group here, my sort of chaps, shooters, not so called great white Bwana experts! Those of you that go up north, basically wasting energy and effort, can't fix stupid as JWP says! And he is damn spot on! Can't fix ego either!

Sorry, I see I am now wasting my time too, carrying on like this! Good thing I am a spiffy typist, even though my grammar might not be up to par! I must get to the range and hopefully get some test work that has been promised done this morning!

Later
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mafunyane

Hi there, well looks like you got your rifle shooting to the same POI the other week! I do a lot of that sort of thing here, depending on what bullets and caliber I am trying to get to work with. Most of the time you can work it out. Sometimes it's a big more difficult, and sometimes especially getting much lighter bullets to shoot with heavy ones in near impossible.

Welcome
Michael

Michael yes I did sort it out,I'm lucky that my rifle shoots just about any bullet I feed it within 3 inch of each other.

It help to ask.

I really like the barns bullets and don't think I will be shooting something else out of my rifle very soon.

By the way this post need to be pined up on top, excellent work!

Michael,

Go shoot something you will feel better.

Remember my first post on one of your threads was buy some Woodleighs, learn to shoot, go kill an elephant.

While that has worked many times I am finding there may be better ways of doing things.

To this day I believe the one elephant I killed was shot in a very good location for a side brain shot and did not kill it immediately. Stunned it, knocked it down, so that says something for Taylor's theory. But it was not dead. I did finish it off without any help. Did the bullet veer of course? After shooting newspaper and plywood I am beginning to think maybe so. (I am not looking for vindication of having to shoot more than once, just looking for the truth)

Anyway I have been impressed with the North Forks. Nothing I have placed in the test box at any angle has caused them to veer off course. I believe the magic bullet in the JFK assasination was a Woodleigh. I found one at a 90º angle to the box 15 feet away after it came out of the top of the paper and I had a lid on it. Still have not figured that one out.

The NF regulate well in my double maybe even better than the Woodleighs. They are way better than minute of elephant at 30 feet. The double rifle guys are just slow to change, but even Woodleigh changes as shown with their new line.

Going to Baton Rouge today. Our new company is running a welding procedure to start a project on Monday. Tomorrow will be 25 years that my Father passed away. I wish he was here to see all of this. Forty-Three was way too young. I may get a little shooting in tomorrow depending on how I feel.

Well said Michael, and spot on!
As I said before, this thread has been THE most useful, educational thread thus far.
My question is:
Which cartridge is better on game; a .404 Jeffrey, or a .458 Lott?
Now, the Jeffrey case looks really cool with it's long sloped shoulder, but that Lott case is pretty cool to with it's straighter case sides. Hmmm, I bet it would be the one with the rifle with the white front bead sight!
After all, it is a classic, and has been around for 100 years!
Bullet? Whats a bullet got to do with anything?

Wonder what happened to Alf.
Awwww, he'll be back.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I believe the magic bullet in the JFK assasination was a Woodleigh. I found one at a 90º angle to the box 15 feet away after it came out of the top of the paper and I had a lid on it. Still have not figured that one out.

I had to stop trying to catch any kind of round nose solids too. Just too squirrelly. Cannot justify the repair bills for the bullet box side walls and surroundings.

The "Iron WaterBoard Buffalo" may have been laughed at by the so called "experts."
However, it was a great interrogator of bullets.
Made them talk!
Made them tell the truth!
Confirmed by Michael and Mike.