Shortstroking and Jamming.

If the chamber is empty, and one shortstroke when cycling the bolt, no round will be chambered. Same thing with both CRF and PF.

If one ecstract a fiered case and shortstroke, what happens is:
PF: as soon as the case is free of the front ring, it will eject. No live round will be chambered. If it is not free of the front ring, it will jam when mooved foreward again, or fall off the boltface and jam the next round.
CRF: The case will not eject, and will follow the bolt foreward again. Then the empty shell can either jam, or fall off into the magazine, to jam the next round.

The way I see it - and has experienced it, a CRF is much more easy to jam as a result of a shortstroke than a PF.

A lot of people seems to have other opinions.
So what am I missing?

If you chamber a .243Win or 7,62x51 into 7,62x63 "tube" with CRF bolt it will discharge while with PF it will not. That is after you squizze the trigger. Correct assumption, yes? Please do not try this at the range!

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:
Correct assumption, yes?

Partly correct!
But this thread is about shortstroking, not PF contra CRF in general.

On a properly built CRF, the catridge case is held firmly in place against the boltface. It "snaps" into place under the extractor. It cannot fall into the magazine, and is held in direct allignment to the bore. It stays that way until you rectract it against the ejector. If your CRF acts otherwise, it is improperly tuned.

CRF is designed to prevent a double feed when short-stroking the forward movement of bolt.

Thanks, KurtC!

True, and if this should be of any interst at all, we should assume that both rifles are properly tuned. So we forget that the CRF can jam on its way foreward. Likewise, in a properly tuned PF, the case will not come loose if forvarded before clearing the front reciever ring, just stop, and pulling the bolt rearvard will clear and eject the case, no jam.

But what CAN happen to a properly tuned CRF is a shortstroke that gives enough push to release the case, but not enough force to fully eject it. This will leave the case loose and crossvice on top of the magazine, and will most definately jam. This is something that will not happen in a PF.

huh?

mostly you dont short stroke a crf like you do a pf because you dont see the empty fly out until the bolt comes to rest aganst hte boltstop and ejector . with the pf you see the empty fly out like you say and start foreward again too early. you basicaly have to have your head up your ass to short stroke one anyway but it does happen. I just practiced trying to tear the handle off against the bolt stop on the way back and no my remington has not let go of the handle yet. it truly is a matter of practice and memory when you feel the bolt slam aganst the bolt stop, stop and go the other way!

Thanks, Crusher!

What you describe is the problem of closing the bolt on an empty chamber, and I agree that that is easier to do on a PF, but most people arguing for the CRF's superiority are talking about jamming.
ALF just talked about it in the Weatherby actions thread, how Mauser made his rifled CRF's because of shortstroking and jamming.

My point is, that shortstroking an jamming can be done with any kind of action when the brain is boiled, and that a CRF is easier to jam than a PF.

A shortstroke can cause a dryfire in a both CRF and PF, but it is a lot quicker to cycle the bolt again, than to loosen a jam.

huh?

no argument from me when I was at school to hunt 2 legged beasts we all used push feeds and they dont charge they shoot back.

with the sako style extractor I dont think it makes a differance crf or pf. by the way pf works upsidedown if you are upside down too.

"Nothing is foolproof given a sufficiently talented fool." - Somebody

quote:

A lot of people seems to have other opinions.
So what am I missing?

A lot of guff from MacD37!!

/

Just practice enough so that it doesn't happen to you. I have never had a short stroke problem with any rifle, PF or CRF. What's needed is a lot of practice, not a new or different rifle.

I know this is not the answer solicited, but the question is not very compelling to me.

I was riding in the bed of the bakkie, we were just out to see what we could spot before we headed out on foot. When riding in a truck I leave the magazine full but an empty chamber. A Cape Eland is spotted and I get the order, "Down and fast!" from the PH and we head out on foot. I thought we were going to walk but if you have ever followed an Eland you know that it's more like a jog, or a really fast walk if you've got really long legs. We start jogging when I remember that I've got an empty chamber and so while jogging I work the bolt on the Sako 75 in .375 H&H. When I'm entirely out of breath the Eland decides to stop behind an acacia, thinking we can't see it perhaps. The sticks are up, I set the rifle in them, try to slow my breathing and press the trigger: click. Ask Jaco Human, he was the PH and it was his rifle. The point is, I practice a lot, but it was the first time I had worked the bolt on a rifle while running and I screwed up. I short stroked it and didn't even know it. I'm sure the same thing would have happened whatever system was used, it was user error. So practice working your bolt in a variety of situations other than in front of your television.

I have already said this in previous posts, but the rapid fire drill with a bolt rifle should be done as often as you can. Having a little friendly competition with some friends, with a shot timer, is a simple way to put a little pressure on you, even if your target is set up at 25 yards. The first time I tried it I found that the magazine spring on my Model 70 wasn't strong enough for a rapid fire drill and it's a really great way to see if those bullets feed as well as you thought.

this is why doubles and lever actions are so cool.

try short stroking a blr and tell me then it cant jam.

never shot a blr but never had a jam in my marlin

If you short stroke a CRF with an empty in the boltface, on the closing stroke you will immediatley get resistance when the live round cannot move up into the (occupied) bolt face.

Your reaction will be to retract the bolt, hopefully all the way to the rear this time, and the empty in the bolt face will eject, and you close the bolt on the live round and carry on.

Short stroking a CRF, whether on ejection as you describe, or on chambering (double feed), will clear itself by cycling the action properly a second time.

My M70's and M98's will not let an empty drop off the boltface with proper extractor tension

Boom I never jamed one either but had a buddy bend a round in a marlin so bad we had to take it apart to clear it rare but does happen.

Bent,

You are absolutely correct, the CRF is a total POS! Everyone should send their POS CRF rifles to me for safety sake. Lets start with ALL the magnum Mausers and work down (the magnum mauser are typically DGR/stopping rifles so these guys need to get a PF before anyone else does).

The guns I have the most jamming issues with have all been tube magazine fed push feeds (pumps, auto loads, and levers). Next were box fed auto loaders. These must all be CRF, right.

i did a google search for the words "reliable" and "lever action" and it came up with one million three hundres and eighty thousand reffernces.

mauser and reliable and had 87,800 finds

i put in push feed and reliable and it is still searching...

that of course after i did a search for push feed and jam and the google site crashed comming up with a number that high

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:

quote:

A lot of people seems to have other opinions.
So what am I missing?

A lot of guff from MacD37!!

You're a funny man!

The controlled pushfed round single shot breechloader rarely jams!

A follow up shot means you can't shoot or you're using the wrong equipment....right?!?!?

quote:

The controlled pushfed round single shot breechloader rarely jams!

It just fails to extract!

spears and rocks dont jam but i think i will be ok with even a pf...

quote:

It just fails to extract!

Forgetting to extract or eject falls under the category of not being able to shoot I think.

(hint: use a 20 lb extractor spring - "ejectors we don't need no stinkin' ejectors!")

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

It just fails to extract!

Forgetting to extract or eject falls under the category of not being able to shoot I think.

(hint: use a 20 lb extractor spring - "ejectors we don't need no stinkin' ejectors!")

You probably have given this more thought than you are supposed to to post on the subject of CRF vs PF. Heres my take, I will run and hide after I post it.

The only thing that a CRF will prevent is this.... You push the bolt forward, remove the cartridge from the magazine, the cartridge disengages from the magazine, but instead of closing the bolt (get this, this is funny) you pull the bolt back and try to load another round while the first is still in the chamber. (Not a very common mistake)....

Shortstroking the bolt will prevent the bolt from engaging the rim of the cartridger in the magazine, be it CRF or PF. Now get this, if the extractor on a CRF is not holding the rim such that it is putting pressure on the cartridges on the magazine, failing to throw the bolt back to the ejector prior to pushing the bolt forward (short stroking for those that pay attention) will cause the bolt to try to extract a second round for the magazine with the first still in the extractor. Now of course, this is never supposed to happen as a properly tuned action wouldn't exhibit this behavior, unless of course the "Massive Claw" gets bent.

John

All makes sense to me gentlemen!!

I was talking about a big extractor on a non magazine rifle. I couldn't give a rats about the CRF Pushfeed debate.

That's why they invented the CRAPFAD rifle 100 years ago!

Anyone who thinks some FN wannabe rifle is a real sniping platform has been eating too many waffles.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
All makes sense to me gentlemen!!

I was talking about a big extractor on a non magazine rifle. I couldn't give a rats about the CRF Pushfeed debate.

That's why they invented the CRAPFAD rifle 100 years ago!

Anyone who thinks some FN wannabe rifle is a real sniping platform has been eating too many waffles.

Yeah, I thing I hit the quote button instead of the reply button, I thought you would forgive me though....

Besides, I wonder how you short stroke the CRAPFAD rifle? Personally my wife gets upset if I short stroke anything, so to make sure there is domestic bliss, I have learned to throw that bolt the full stroke from stop to lock.

I have seen and handled the FN tactical rifle, its Ok, looks eeriely similar to a model 70 with a bull barrel and a hogue stock. I think I would rather have a TRG in 338 lapua, but then again, I haven't been known to show common sense.

As for the debate, I love hearing the argument that CRF will prevent short storking or jamming from short stroking. I have actually seen that argument from educated gun writers. Somehow I feel compelled to set the record straight (see futility) At any rate, I think I will give up and get me a 470 NE double.

John

If you really want to spank them get a double pushfeed!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
a Mauser actioned 416; Buffalo just 15 yards away in Zambia, loaded, locked and then the shot !

Nothing ! now that Flynch when the pin falls on a dry chamber cause I did not pull the bolt all the way back initially and then the comedy of actually jamming the rifle, then unjamming it now all my carts lying in the dirt at the end of a dismal performance and in all of the buff does not move it to was very surprized at my antics. I did finally get it right and kill the damned thing.

Thanks, Alf! I am with you on that one, had a simmilar happening with a M98 in .280 in close encounter with my very first red deer.

So again, no construction is foolproof for the users misbehavior.
I have been playing around with my m98's and Rem700's, and the easyest way to get a jam was to shortstroke the m98's just barely - pulling enoug backward for the case to come loose, but not with enoug force to make it eject, leaving it laying across the magazine with its tail out the thumbslot, or on top of the magazine with its tail facing the chamber.

Also thanks to the rest of you, even those who just tried to be funny.

So Bent!

Is all this about the Caribou that charged you last season?

No, Macifej, this is all about keeping the Circus going, so that you can increase your number of posts.

Thanks my Viking Pal! I'm only here for the entertainment though. Curious, is there some reason guys would want to have more posts? Seen that said before. Do I get a prize?

i have not received any prizes yet...

there are some in the political forum that would win the publishers clearing house sweepstakes with as many posts they have.

ALF, if you are saying what I think you are saying, then, you left out one point! A properly tuned, with a properly shaped bolt nose, CRF cannot pick up another round till the first cartridge, or empty case, held by the bolt, is ejected! The fixed ejector on a properly timed Mauser contacts the first cartridge before the bolt is drawn back far enough to pick up the next round, ejecting the first round. At the point of ejection the next round in the magazine is actually forced down slightly into the magazine, so that it doesn't interfere with the ejection of the round in the bolt face. and slightly after the ejection takes place, the next round slips over the end of the bolt, and starts into the recess behind the extractor, and the rim around the opposite side of the bolt.

This is the whole idea of the CRF design! If a Mauser action picks up a new round before the first round is ejected, the ejector is too short, and should be repaired.

Everyone has the wrong idea of when a "SHORT STROKE" occurs that is so detrimental to the shooter in a tight situation!

It seems they all assume it is when the rifle has been fired, and the bolt isn't drawn back far enough to eject the empty. In that case the PF it would simply rechamber the empty, or jam it into the barrel butt, and the CRF action, would re-chamber the empty. Both are bad! This is silly, because when a person is in a hurry to get another round in the rifle will naturally try to rip the bolt out of the action, he brings it back so fast.

However, this is not the short stroke that gets shooters into trouble with a PF rifle, and causes a jam that requires tools, and time, to fix with a PF rifle! Neither of which you tend to have handy during a charge!

This is the problem:

The rifle is fired, and the bolt is slammed back which ejects the empty! Now, the bolt picks a round off the top of the magazine, and starts forward, but the shooter is such a hurry to fire, and get another round into the chamber, that he doesn't go home with the cartridge, but withdraws the bolt again, then goes forward with it a second time. With a PF rifle, the first cartridge will not be ejected, because the bolt doesn't have CONTROL of the first round, and when he goes forward again, he strips a second off the top of the magazine, he now has two loaded rounds in the loading tray, vying for the same chamber, not a good thing!

This is what happened to that old time Grizzly guide last year in Alaska, with his well-used SAKO, and it got him mauled. He no longer uses a PF rifle! The same scenario, with a CRF, the first round would have been ejected, before another round was stripped free, of the magazine, and the second chambered as if the short stroke had never happened!

quote:

Now many a brave soul here would claim this cannot happen to him or her, only to fools but when shooting against the clock in a "charging buffalo shooting competition" I have seen this happen to many.

Many things can happen, that seem unreasonable, while sitting in front of a computer, things that can, and will happen in the face of a close encounter with something that wants to kill you!

If anyone here thinks this can't happen to anyone, who knows his rifle, they are wrong! The afore mentioned Guide in Alaska,knew his rifle very well, but it happened to him, and to top that off it doesn't have to be in a life & death situation! Simple buck fever can do it! I personally witnessed such a happening, and with a lever actioned mod 94 Winchester 30-30! It wasn't a jam, but it was one thing happening, and the shooter, who had used his rifle for years, thinking he had done something entirely different, than what he did!

I took this 19 yr old kid Mule deer hunting on a ranch in far West Texas, he was using well used mod 94 30-30, that he had killed a dozen whitail deer with in the East Texas woods on his father's farm, but had never hunted open country, or seen a full grown Mule deer.

We were walking a cap rock formation, and jumped a very large ten, or twelve point Muley, at about 30 yds from under the cap rock below us. This kid racked that lever as fast as he could. The deer went out of sight around the curve in the canyon bottom, and the kid turned to me and asked, "DID I HIT HIM?"! my answer was "NO", you never fired at him! He said "sure I did!" Then I showed him the five rounds on the ground, still loaded! He got so excited that he levered five shells out of the rifle without pulling the trigger once, and he would have sworn he had fired every one of them! What do you think would have happened if this kid had been faced with a Cape buffalo, or Lion? SOoooooooooo what I'm saying is people do some strange things when under pressure!

The moral of this is, eliminate everything you can that has a potential for mishap, because practice is a wonderful thing, and helps, but it can't over-ride Mr. Murphy!

The folks here may use what ever suits them, but smart remarks will not change anything, when Mr. Murphy comes to call!

quote:

A lot of guff from MacD37!!

See what I mean? I love ya Mac! You are right again.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


This is the problem:

The rifle is fired, and the bolt is slammed back which ejects the empty! Now, the bolt picks a round off the top of the magazine, and starts forward, but the shooter is such a hurry to fire, and get another round into the chamber, that he doesn't go home with the cartridge, but withdraws the bolt again, then goes forward with it a second time. With a PF rifle, the first cartridge will not be ejected, because the bolt doesn't have CONTROL of the first round, and when he goes forward again, he strips a second off the top of the magazine, he now has two loaded rounds in the loading tray, vying for the same chamber, not a good thing!

This is what happened to that old time Grizzly guide last year in Alaska, with his well-used SAKO, and it got him mauled. He no longer uses a PF rifle! The same scenario, with a CRF, the first round would have been ejected, before another round was stripped free, of the magazine, and the second chambered as if the short stroke had never happened!

Yeah, I hear you, and it is not good, but what if this guide used a CRF, shortstroked it so that the case losened from the boltface, but not with enough force to be ejected? I have seen this happen, and it leaves the empty case in a place were it will jam big time!
So you think he would bring a CRF the next time?

My point is, I am a bit tired of people who thinks a certain action can save their lives, and who also blame their gun for their own abuse.

Like you said, don't screw around with Murphy!

I have to agree with Mac. BUT, I have never had a jam with a push feed Sako 375 either, 6 safaris, and several thousand rounds. BUT heres my observation: there are CRFs and there are CRf's. In my BRNO 7x57, after I top off the magazine, I cannot chamber another round; the extractor wont slip over the rim; not a problem for a 7mm, but certainly reduces cartridge capacity in a DGR. Funily enough, I dont see this in my CX 505 gibbs, or my custom 404 & 416 (both on Mauser actions). Now my Wells 505 DOES have this problem,sort of, (it takes a great deal of force, and I am reluctant to try it) but it has 4 in the magazine, so not a big deal,I think. Whats the difference in all these Mauser type actions? The Wells 505 is based on a P14 action, by the way.
To my thinking, it's great to have CRF, but possibly not if it costs you an extra round.

Mac!

Psss, what you describe is failure to close the action. I can honestly say that I have seen a few short stroke situations when people move to a 375 lengrh action. But no one ever had a jam from that. Failure to close the bolt is less rare. Having trained with most types of firearms, I can say that when the crap hits the fan, only training will save you, not some mythical safety feature. Its probably the biggest reason why the military likes semi autos.

John

Mac,

What you say is of course correct.

However, a staggered feed CRF will never equal an in line feed PF for reliability of feeding and doubly so with calibres like 458 when blunt bullets are used. You could end short stroking the staggered feed CRF simply because the round will jam and not let you close the bolt

Mike