Subsonic 45ACP rifle shooters?

I want to start shooting subsonic 45ACP from a bolt-action rifle. From time to time I see interest in this subject scattered around the Internet, but nothing very consistent. For a while there was an Enfield conversion kit available. Now I’m looking for something more modern, maybe a CZ527 carbine conversion.

Is this the best Forum for this subject?

I would be interested in such a rifle too. There was a mauser 98 conversion kit, but I thought the resulting rifle would be too large.

i have a buddy that is really into the subsonic thing. he visits a board called silencertest.com or silencertests.com or something like that. i bet those guys could put you in touch with a person that could fill your need.

from what he tells me, folks really like to put mufflers on those ruger lever action rifles chambered in 44 mag and shoot really heavy stuff at low velocities.

It's not a bolt action, but I have a TC Contender rifle set up with a 28" long 45 Colt barrel for similar purposes.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry22LR:
Subsonic 45ACP rifle shooters?

I want to start shooting subsonic 45ACP from a bolt-action rifle. From time to time I see interest in this subject scattered around the Internet, but nothing very consistent. For a while there was an Enfield conversion kit available. Now I’m looking for something more modern, maybe a CZ527 carbine conversion.

Is this the best Forum for this subject?

My standard home defense load for H&K Mk23 pistol is subsonic 230gr Remi JHP load.
For a rifle I would go with something like .300 Whisper.

I’ve been looking for a compact bolt rifle to launch 45 cal subsonic rounds. Before I had settled on the 45 ACP cartridge, and was looking for a “short†action which I could buy as a complete used rifle on Gunbroker. The plan was to re-barrel to 45 ACP as cheaply as possible, with no work on the bolt face or extractor. [OK, make that “only a little†extractor work. I am a realist.]

Stevens are pretty good rifles: my first rifle was a Stevens 22 single-shot bolt action which I had to manually cock before each shot. No magazine. I got it for Christmas when I was six, in 1950. I notice that Stevens are still around, and are pretty cheap on Gunbroker. Actually, the Enfields and Mausers are now about as expensive as Stevens. Imagine that!

So I stumbled around and found that rifles in the following fairly common cartridges can be re-barreled for 45 ACP with no bolt face changes:

.22-250 (2.35 in long)
.300 Savage (2.60 inch long)
.243 Winchester (2.71 inch long)
.308 Winchester (2.80 inch long)
.25-06 Remington (3.25 inch long)
.270 Winchester (3.34 inch long)
.30-06 (3.34 inch long)

The top four of these at least have the POSSIBILITY of a “short actionâ€.

Trouble is, barrels are expensive. MidwayUSA is having a sale on barrel blanks, but nothing for 45 ACP. About the best deal is a .458 barrel blank by Adams & Bennet with a 1 in 14 inch twist rate for $70.00. Then I discovered the “.458 SOCOM†round: see

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM"

Turns out, this cartridge is 1.58 inches long and fits the bolt face, but can be loaded with a 600 grain bullet to fire subsonic at about 1,000 fps. Apparently there are quite a variety of bullets which can be used, and accuracy can be excellent out to maybe 100-150 yards. And the 1 in 14 twist is recommended. The kick is not too bad, or so they say.

So now I gotta get the rifle, get the barrel blank, and find a Smith willing to fool around with chambering for that Godawful-looking SOCOM round, then mating the barrel to the rifle.

My palms are starting to sweat, and THAT’S a GOOD THING…

Why not just buy a 458 SOCOM rifle from Rock River Arms? Then if you did not like it, at least it would have decent resale value.

I got a real kick out of your picture of the Tribesman carrying the AK-47, 500grains. I guess they don't much carry spears anymore...

Rock River doesn't have bolt action .458 SOCKUM rifles, at least none I could find.

You might look into these:

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/

The kit would probably be cheaper than trying to find a barrel. You may not like the "Savage" barrel nut, though.

James

Thanks, Stryker60.

I’ve had no experience with re-barreling, but the Savage barrel-swap really SOUNDS nice, to the uninitiated pedestrian like me. But NO WAY would I try it without a gunsmith setting the headspace for me.

I really prefer to stick with 45 ACP, and the presumed lower chamber pressures than, say, the 458 SOCOM. And the chamber reamers for 45 ACP are everywhere, while the 458 SOCOM reamers are harder to get at present.

I sure wish MidwayUSA.com would offer their $70.00 barrel blanks in 0.452 inch bores.

Another option to consider (although I doubt anything is available off the shelf) would be to chamber for .45 Winchester Magnum. Essentially a .45acp lengthened to .44mag specs...

I've shot my .45 Grizzly with 300 gr. stuff and it's quite a pussycat.

You might consider a Ruger 77/44, bolt action chambered in 44mag. You can shoot 44 special, which is subsonic, but will get much better accuracy by loading longer 44 mag cases to 44 special velocities. I have one of these rifles with an integrally suppressed barrel, and it is quiet. I think Ruger has discontinued the rifle, but there are some around.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry22LR:


Rock River doesn't have bolt action .458 SOCKUM rifles, at least none I could find.

They don't. I was thinking of the semi auto, for which there is a decent resale market.

I played with a contender with a special .45 ACP barrel that I throated for .452, 800 gr bore riders and turned down military pulls. Had a huge BC but only made about 500fps. Quiet as could be and surprisingly accurate. -Rob

I have some experiance with subsonic and silenced rounds.

Are you just looking to shoot subsonic ACP or are you looking to suppress the round?

Ask tiggertate about his 458 socom entronx
jeffe

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered a $120 7mm Mauser on Gubroker a couple of hours ago. I want to re-barrel it in 45 ACP. I hope its not just junk. The Seller has excellent feedback, and has a no-fault return policy, so my fingers are crossed. See it here:

“http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103649207â€

No, I don’t plan to silence it. Actually, I need it for testing my “Shooting Box†prototype, which is a suitcase-size forward barrel rest with built-in suppression. If these work, I’ll be selling them and they WON’T REQUIRE ATF APPROVAL. So shooters will be able to try silenced shooting without buying a silencer and without paying the ATF $200.00.

Rob, that is very interesting. Why do you think it only reached 500 fps? I was expecting more like 850 fps, but I was also thinking up to 500 grain bullets, not 800. What twist and barrel length did you use?

Thanks, Henry.

Based on what you are trying to do I would have reccommended a lever action rifle in 45LC or Ruger in 44mag.

A sound reduction box shouldn't be very hard to construct.
How are you going to make it for use on a shooting bench or ....?
Will it work with the big boomers like 458WM and 50BMG?

un do

I used a 1:15 twist and a 26 inch barrel. Thats still alot of bearing resistance and I never tried to push it. The goal was very low pressure with a high BC bullet that would be inherently quiet. It has quite a wallop way out there and is very quiet. With a silencer it would be a much quieter than a silenced airgun. Accuracy is very good and the hughe BC helps enourmously with the wind. Rounds look wierd but so what!-rob

Do you have a picture of one of those loaded rounds? Sounds neat!

quote:

Will it work with the big boomers like 458WM and 50BMG?

I expect it will suppress the muzzle blast, but to what advantage? The local sound of the supersonic CRACK will still be there, and still require ear protection.

That is why I want to test with subsonic rounds, but with BIG BULLETS. I chose 45 ACP because I suspect that they are the least expensive of the large caliber rounds.

I’ve gotta find a 22-26 inch barrel with a 0.452 bore (preferably with a 1/14 twist) which I can rethread for the small-ring Mauser and rechamber to 45 ACP. Anybody got a cheap one? Neither Midway nor Brownels list this bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry22LR:

quote:

Will it work with the big boomers like 458WM and 50BMG?

I expect it will suppress the muzzle blast, but to what advantage? The local sound of the supersonic CRACK will still be there, and still require ear protection.

That is why I want to test with subsonic rounds, but with BIG BULLETS. I chose 45 ACP because I suspect that they are the least expensive of the large caliber rounds.

Are you new to suppressors?

First the 458WM and 50BMG can be loaded subsonic.

Second, I have a couple suppressors.

There is a big difference in noise betwen a 308 and a 300WM when unsuppressed. But when suppressed, there is very little difference in the noise.

Additionally, I find that shooting supersonic rounds through a suppressor knocks off a good big of the noise. In some locations, I could shoot with a suppressed supersonic, but not unsuppressed.

Well 45-70 with cast bullets is very cheap. Have you considered a 45-70 with Ranger Rick 720 grain cast bullets? Put a suppressor on that and it would essentially be quiet but with almost 2 ounces of lead coming out the end of the barrel. Just checked a ballistics chart, and you'd have 1000 ft lbs out to 700 yards, and almost 900 at 1000 yards. Pretty impressive! Of course you're gonna need a scope with a ton of adjustment to shoot much further than 200 yards. Or maybe a ballistic type reticle?

quote:

Second, I have a couple suppressors.

Why, THANK YOU Ddunn! I’ll PM my address to you. Thanks for letting me borrow one!
(JUST KIDDING!!!)

*****

I’m now stuck with the 7mm Mauser bolt-face, Tyler. And I’m told the 45-70 requires a different bolt-face. There aren’t that many 44 cal - 50 cal rounds that will work in the small-ring Mauser.

But you are SO RIGHT. Even shooting subsonic big bullets have WHALLOP within 150 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Well 45-70 with cast bullets is very cheap. Have you considered a 45-70 with Ranger Rick 720 grain cast bullets? Put a suppressor on that and it would essentially be quiet but with almost 2 ounces of lead coming out the end of the barrel. Just checked a ballistics chart, and you'd have 1000 ft lbs out to 700 yards, and almost 900 at 1000 yards. Pretty impressive! Of course you're gonna need a scope with a ton of adjustment to shoot much further than 200 yards. Or maybe a ballistic type reticle?

Right now I am part of a conversation on a suppressor board about the Scope/Iron sites issues.

I need a scope with 3 points of aim.
No suppressor
Suppressor
Sub-sonic suppressor

Of course you would need different points of aim for a load being <1000ish fps, and >1000ish fps, just differing loads having different points of impact.

And your suppressor is acting somewhat as a tuning device, do you notice any difference in group size with it on or off? How about recoil reduction? I've heard "a suppressor is the most effective muzzle brake out there." Ironic they do totally opposite things other than reduce recoil.

You know, I really like the 458 SOCOM round. It has a good pedigree: kind of a “mustang†round that started with filling a nicht the Special Forces had.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_SOCOM"

They have been shooting them both subsonic and really fast, too. There are some very LOOONG bullets available. No mention of “detonation†when shooting subsonic, either.

Like someone said, “really weird looking but who cares?â€

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Of course you would need different points of aim for a load being <1000ish fps, and >1000ish fps, just differing loads having different points of impact.

And your suppressor is acting somewhat as a tuning device, do you notice any difference in group size with it on or off? How about recoil reduction? I've heard "a suppressor is the most effective muzzle brake out there." Ironic they do totally opposite things other than reduce recoil.

On some rifles, it doesn't make a difference.
On some rifles, it helps.
On one of my setups, it makes the groups open up and I haven't found a tack driver load, YET.

With one setup, I don't think it changes recoil.
On another setup, I think it might help, but it may just be the added weight.
I think if a suppressor is designed for recoil reduction, it could be a great.

Henry22LR, as far as a loaner suppressor, I can't do that. But if you are local to me, we can probably arrange an outing. IF you are looking for something like this, PM me and/or hang out on a suppressor board. There are many owners/dealers who would be willing to give you some trigger time if you pay for the ammo.

I used a Rhineland Arms kit to re-barrel my Enfield No.1. I set head space with a dummy cartridge; very easy.

I have also re-barreled several savage rifles using Pac-Nor and other barrels. Using headspace gauges makes it easy to ensure the proper headspace even for the beginner.

I want to get a barrel in 458 Socom for a savage, but am unable to find a reamer.

Using a silencer on rifles shooting supersonic 223 and 308 really knocks down the noise a lot. I cam not able to properly test the noise level, but I feel that my homemade (on ATF form 1's) silencers are safe to shoot without hearing protection, as long as I am not shooting inside/under weather protection. The sound reflecting off of the weather protection makes them seem much noisier.

If you are interested in making or buying silencers at all, then visiting http://www.subguns.com and http://www.silencertests.com is a must

Ranb

quote:

No, I don’t plan to silence it. Actually, I need it for testing my “Shooting Box†prototype, which is a suitcase-size forward barrel rest with built-in suppression. If these work, I’ll be selling them and they WON’T REQUIRE ATF APPROVAL. So shooters will be able to try silenced shooting without buying a silencer and without paying the ATF $200.00

If you build a box and then rest the muzzle on a "forward Barrel rest" and the you say shoot through it to suppress the noise you by defenition have built a silencer. I hope you know what your talkin about .....

Interesting idea a briefcase sized box you shoot through with baffels like a speaker is what i am picturing. But then I have shot from inside a Suburban through a 3 inch crack in the back doors. I guess I was inside the suppressor on that one LOL of course the crack was heard on the outside of the truck but it was real quiet with a bell tone in the background inside of the truck.

quote:

I hope you know what your talkin about .....

Yep, I know what I'm talking about.

In fact, I am certain of it.

Well Boo Ya. With recent rulings from the Technology Branch NFA with a look at Mr. Olofson, who merely lent his semi-auto AR-15 to a friend, it malfunctioned resulting in a tri-burst and now he was found guilty of transferring a machinegun.

You heard about the carpenter that had a wood megaphone in the back of his truck buried in his scrap pile......well now he is a license plate maker. Guess he had a hard time explaining the powder residue.


Have at it!

For your reading pleasure:

FIREARM SILENCERS

While the statute calls these devices "silencers" or "mufflers",
the US NFA industry term is "sound suppressor", as the word
silencer has been given a negative connotation, and because it is
inaccurate, as these devices do not eliminate all sound from firing
a gun. However you can point the folks who get all high and mighty
about the use of the word "silencer" to this definition; it is the
legal term.

18 U.S.C. sec. 921(a)(24) "The term 'firearm silencer' or
'firearm muffler' means any device for silencing, muffling, or
diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any
combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for
use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm
muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or
fabrication."

As can be seen this covers improvised sound suppressors, and
component parts of a sound suppressor. There is no thresh hold
level of sound reduction for something to fall under this
definition. ATF used to require the device "appreciably" lower the
sound (see Revenue Ruling 57-38) In general recoil compensators and
flash hiders do not fall under this definition, but some designs
could fall into the category. As with any borderline device the
thing to do is to get a written opinion from the Technology Branch
of ATF.


Ref:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

I appreciate your cautions, .500Pro. But I am a Physicist, not a carpenter, and I already have my letter from the Technology Branch.

quote:

So now I gotta get the rifle, get the barrel blank, and find a Smith willing to fool around with chambering for that Godawful-looking SOCOM round, then mating the barrel to the rifle.

I built a SOCOM on a 98/22 a few years back.

Gave up on trying to make it feed, but haven't enlisted any professional help.

Bought an A&B barrel on sale for $65, got the reamer and gauges from Kiff.


The cartridge has substantial potential in a bolt rifle, as you don't have to worry about the lugs parting ways above 35k psi in a AR-15, and you aren't restricted to the 2.250" OAL.

300 Hornadys usually group in the 1-1.25" range at 2050 fps, lower velocities open the groups up substantially.

350 Hornady's grouped in the 1" range, 1620 fps is as fast as I pushed them before running out of bullets.

405 Remington's will routinely print sub .75" groups across the velocity range of 1300-1550 fps.

420g Beartooth's at 675 fps are pretty quiet, but that's the only subsonic load I've tried(barrel lapping loads).

Still case capacity left to push the 300-405's faster, just haven't got around to it yet.

Thanks, Fireball. I would really appreciate your guidance as I enter what, for me, is virgin territory.

First, what twist rate was your barrel? Sounds like you were shooting at full power, so likely used the faster twist than the 1/11 I plan to use.

Second, did you do the chambering/threading yourself?

Mine is a 14 twist.

Most folks are shooting the 600's subsonic without any stability issues with using a 14, many of the early barrels were 16 and 18. To my knowledge, there aren't any running around faster than 14.

I did the fitting and chambering myself.

You were right, Fireball, and I was wrong. The 1/14 twist is correct for subsonic shooting.

Here is my $120 Mauser. These pictures are from the Seller at Gunbroker. This is one of 5 views I posted over at “What’s with the 458 SOCOM†over on the RELOADING forum. Only just yesterday I saw what might be a HOLE drilled into the chamber! Please tell me it is not!

Henry