You might be money ahead starting with a Savage action.

By the time you buy one, sell the take off parts, and buy a prefit, chambered barrel - especially if you're going to be playing with several different cartridges on your project. Plus, they'll likely feed with the new centerfeed magazine setup.

Since you're bouncing around somewhat on your chambering...have you considered the .510 SOCOM/BFG/EBG (different chamber specs, but all about the same thing)?

Straight walled 458 SOCOM, .510 projectiles.

Either neck them back up using the Hornady 500 EBG or BFG die set, or buy 458 SOCOM basic brass from Starline...or make your own from 50 Alaskan Starline brass.

I've been throwing 325g Barnes at 2300 fps with it, stil working my way up with lots of case capacity left.

The "heavy" projectile selection might be a little better(and cheaper) for you as you can launch the BMG's with it.

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1303

Only just yesterday I saw what might be a HOLE drilled into the chamber! Please tell me it is not!

Wunhunglo (from “Sunny S. Africaâ€) over at the GUNANDGAME forum said “The hole is the case/primer rupture safety holeâ€, which makes sense to a pedestrian like me. So far, I’ve not found such a hole shown or labeled on any Mauser drawings.

Gun & Game

i built three 45acp mausers when rhineland had the kits for sale. the barrel was good and easy to install with the barrel nut system. the ejector they provided sucked so i figured out how to make the original one work very well. the best part of the kit was the magazine block that came with it. it fitted in the original magazine box and allowed the use of 1911 magazines. i don't think they still make the kits.

quote:

Originally posted by max(hm2):
i don't think they still make the kits.

I've bought a couple of the 45 Win Mag blocks from him recently. I do think he's out of the ACP ones though.

You might be money ahead starting with a Savage action.

Thanks, Fireball. I’ve read your comment, and in my heart I’m sure you are right. And I think I recall you had feeding problems with your own Mauser/SOCOM conversion. But for now, and PLEASE don’t be offended, but I want to stick with this Mauser if I can.

Would you rather see me stick with 45ACP barreling in this one?

Once I fire this rifle with the new barrel I’ll NEVER change the barrel on it again. My plan is to have a 22LR, a “30 something caliberâ€, and a 44 cal-45 cal: three different rifles. These rifles will all be loaded/fired subsonic at around 850 fps, and kept around the shop as our “standards†for testing the shooting boxes.

And feeding is a secondary consideration. Accuracy is too, except for bragging rights.

If this one gets chambered in 45ACP, I’ll likely need your barrel you offered me earlier..

On Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:52 pm I posted this on the SilencerResearch Forum

"I sent an email this morning to Rhineland Arms. I said “Re: 45 ACP conversion kits: Are you still selling the conversion kits to convert bolt guns to 45 ACP?

Do you offer assembled kits, with and without sporter stocks? I need
prices...

Sincerely,
Henryâ€

I got back, from info@troupsystems.com “Hello

At this time those are not being offered, due to increased demand they
might be back in production later this year. I do not have a time frame
for that though.

Prices will probably be around the $160-$175 range for kits.

Thanksâ€

I have been trying for a while to get my 458 socom ar-15 to function properly with subsonic loads, it does fine with supersonic.

My last attempt at using 535 grain cast bullets resulted in 90 degree keyholes at 100 yards and and a 16 inch group. Should I expect better results with 500 grain jacketed? I have a 1-14 twist.

Robgunbuilder shoots 800 gr 45 cal rounds out of a 26 inch barrel with 1/15 twist. He says its pretty quiet without a silencer, but he only shoot at about 500 fps. Fireball168 reports pretty quiet shooting with 420 gr 675fps.

If I buy commercial 45ACP rounds from The Armory they look pretty cheap, up to 230 gr. I guess I’ll have to go to reloads to get up to 600 gr. Is that possible in 45ACP? Probably not.

My plan for now is to have the 7mm Spanish Mauser rebarreled with a 26 inch long 1/16 twist 45ACP. If it shoots supersonic with 230 gr bullets I’ll just have try some reduced powder (subsonic pistol rounds) or reloads. That will get me my 45 cal subsonic rifle for testing my shooting boxes. I’ll probably buy a Russian Nagent 7.62x57R ribbed Russian for about $120 and shoot it unmodified with reduced powder: that will cover my 30 cal.

But I’ll probably “trick out†the 45ACP with a cheap thumbhole stock so I can break my thumb.

So I gotta find some unsuspecting gunsmith with deep pockets who will GURANTEE he can turn my POS Mauser into a real shooter(JUST KIDDING!!).

Think it would work well with a pistol?

quote:

Think it would work well with a pistol?

So far, no. The current box is about 2 feet by 2 feet by one foot high. The barrel of the rifle must be inserted into this box “catty corner†so that the muzzle is at the center of the box.

We are working on a pistol version…

I’ve bought a Spanish Mauser in 7mm Mauser, sight unseen on Gunbroker. I’m waiting to see if this is the more recent small-ring Mauser with three bolt-lugs rather than two.

The third bolt lug was added later to prevent the bolt from escaping from the action and hitting the shooter in the face in case of failure of the two primary bolt lugs. It is located near the back of the bolt, near the bolt handle.

This third lug does not “bear†on the action during normal shooting. Only the front two bolt lugs do that.. The only time the rear bolt lug engages the action is in case of catastrophic failure of the two front lugs.

I intend to convert this Spanish Mauser to 45ACP. The original specifications on the early small-ring Mausers allowed for chamber pressures (CUP) up to 46,000psi. Because the 45ACP is limited to 21,000 psi (CUP), this rechambering should allow my old Spanish to “loaf along†during shooting, at greatly reduced pressure.

This is NOT TRUE if one rechambers in, for instance, 458SOCOM, as this round can be loaded to much higher CUP than is the 45ACP.

I think the big difference between the original 7mm 46,000 CUP and the 45ACP 21,000 CUP will be the LENGTH OF TIME that the bolt-face is exposed to the pressures. The 7mm bullets travel much faster than the 45ACP bullets, thus exit the barrel more quickly. This exposes the bolt face to lower pressure, but for a longer time per shot..

Your going to have to pay lots of attention to the extractor on that 7mm spanish mauser to get it to work with a .45 ACP. I would not worry for a moment about it being able to handle the pressures. Finally, If there is enough interest,I can provide .452 bullets in ANY weight shape or form( brass or copper0 or possibly custom bullet molds) if you guys want them. However, I will only do runs of 100 bullets or more. PM me if interested and for pricing.-Rob

Rob, do you do rebarreling? I know feeding will be a problem, but I’ll worry about that later with a local gunsmith.

I’m not worried about a piece of “rifle art†here either. Just a working “experimental device†to launch 45ACP rounds at about 850fps.

As for the reloads, I expect to have you make some for us.

Feeding from a mag will be an interesting project. Personally, I'd weld onto the Mauser triggher guard a custom mag well that would take a single stack mag designed specifically for the long bullets you want to shoot. Yup, I can make whatever you guys want but I dont do custom gunsmithing for a number of reasons. -Rob

Rob, how did you know I’ve been thinking of long bullets?

That’s one reason I like the Spanish Mausers for this project: they can handle longer bullets (length overall) than can, say the Spanish Destroyer (9mm Largo)

Of course, the rifle should accept commercial 45ACP rounds at first, fed single-shot. But once it is working, I’d really like it to be able to feed whatever longer, heavier rounds we find give us about 850 fps and good accuracy at maybe 100 yards. THEN we could try a detachable magazine.

Maybe a Whisper-like bullet…

quote:

I have been trying for a while to get my 458 socom ar-15 to function properly with subsonic loads, it does fine with supersonic.

My last attempt at using 535 grain cast bullets resulted in 90 degree keyholes at 100 yards and and a 16 inch group. Should I expect better results with 500 grain jacketed? I have a 1-14 twist.

Ranb40, your 458 SOCOM AR-15 has a 16.5 inch barrel, right? Did you chrono the velocity? Is it silenced?

Here are some pics of the .452, 800gr borerider flanked by brass and copper .620, 900gr cup point bore riders. The .452 Borerider is loaded into a .45ACP case. The entire front portion of the bullet sits on top of the lands with only the lower .4 inches engaging the lands at .452. This results in minimum pressures and lets you load about 12 gr of powder with very little air space in the case.-Rob

Here is a pic of a loaded case. BTW I think a 1:7 twist is near optimum for this beast.-Rob

WOW, Rob: that’s a LAWN-DART! So there are actually two bearing surfaces as the bullet travels down the barrel. There is one surface forward on the bullet, and one aft. This explains how the bullet is stabilized while in the barrel. It also explains the higher barrel friction which kept the velocity so low.

What is the overall length of this round?

What about accuracy at 50 yards and 100 yards? I only ask because I know someone else will...

Here is another picture. No, The theory of a Borerider is that the foreward section just rides on the lands and is not engraved by the rifling. The dimensions of the Foreward section cause it to center on the lands but will not engage them. Just the rear .4 inch section engages the rifling. This results in very low friction in the barrel vs a full bearing surface bullet of the same length obviously.. This also results in lower pressures vs a full engagement bullet. Thus,you can load to the same pressures as conventional bullets with and often obtain higher velocities. The bullet is 2.9 inches long and is
dart stabilized. Finally, without this little trick, there would literally be no way to load a bullet this long without major surgery to the throat of the barrel. -Rob

I'd take a couple of those just to blow people's minds.

Is the bullet solid, or is there a cavity near the back end? If so, this would make it more aerodynamically stable.

It must not be solid lead: I think it would be heavier if made of solid lead.

The 7mm Mauser is just a tad longer overall: 3.021 inches. This means your Borerider will, theoretically, feed and chamber in my Spanish Mauser..

I’ve got some progress to report on the Spanish Mauser. First, it is a two-lug Mauser, not an endearing feature to many. Second, I’m in correspondence with Clearwater Boring, to get the Mauser rebored and rechambered in 45ACP. So far, they have said that it would require 0.400 inches to be removed from the back end of the barrel, in order to move the new chamber forward far enough. Here is a drawing of what was done at that time (this is from “http://www.geocities.com/fritz125541/Unmarked1916 )†:

“http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/986073/mauser1916shank.jpgâ€

The blue is a ring which was pressed on to the existing barrel to allow the barrel to be rechambered.

I asked, “Could you shorten the existing barrel by the 0.400†required, then continue the threading, and acquire or manufacture a barrel nut (like Savage uses)? The barrel nut would replace the blue part in the rechambered barrel. This would require remachining the end of the barrel after parting-off the excess length, but this would be accomplished by the 45ACP reamer.â€

OOPS! Left out something:

I’ve got some progress to report on the Spanish Mauser. First, it is a two-lug Mauser, not an endearing feature to many. Second, I’m in correspondence with Clearwater Boring, to get the Mauser rebored and rechambered in 45ACP. So far, they have said that it would require 0.400 inches to be removed from the back end of the barrel, in order to move the new chamber forward far enough.

Some Early 7mm Mausers were factory-rebored in .308 Win. Here is a drawing of what was done at that time (this is from “http://www.geocities.com/fritz125541/Unmarked1916 )†:

“http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/986073/mauser1916shank.jpgâ€

The blue is a ring which was pressed on to the existing barrel to allow the barrel to be rechambered.

I asked, “Could you shorten the existing barrel by the 0.400†required, then continue the threading, and acquire or manufacture a barrel nut (like Savage uses)? The barrel nut would replace the blue part in the rechambered barrel. This would require remachining the end of the barrel after parting-off the excess length, but this would be accomplished by the 45ACP reamer.â€

Usually when you shorten the barrel and rechamber, the barrel will leave a big gap in the stock that you'll have to fix with glass bedding. What are they going to charge you for the rechamber and boring? Are you sure that just buying a new barrel and having it chambered, threaded and crowned for the Mauser action isn't cheaper and easier inthe long run? BTW. You can always lengthen the front of a Mauser mag to get the cartridge to feed. You may have to open up the bottom of the feed ramp but that should be easy. My guess is these will feed pretty well.
These bullets are solid CNC Turned brass. Putting a cavity in the rear would only result in lost weight that means for 800 grs it would be even longer. The center of gravity is foreward as it is. thats why it dart stabilizes.-Rob

Henry22LR
Why don't you look into the "MEC TEC CCU" it is made in several varaitions to fit several semi-autos. It replaces the upper or slide of your auto and shoots 45 ACP ammo,You can scope it, sight it, or put a lazer on it, its a blast. Check GUNBROKER and see what you think, it wirth looking at.!!!!!!
jebb45

I’m probably just being old fashioned, Rob. I usually try to spend most of my money at one place, rather than spread it around to several places. That way, I become a more significant customer, and more able to become friends.

But I really never expected a reboring to work out, and it still has not. I’ll probably find out in a day or so.

Looks like we are on the same page as to bullet stabilization during flight. You are right: a cavity behind the CG moves the CG forward, while not affecting the center of area. And either way, with such a long bullet the centers of aerodynamic force have a pretty big “lever arm†to force rotation about the CG, to keep the bullet aerodynamically stable. I expect your bullets are still primarily spin-stabilized, but, with increasing length, there will come a point at which aerodynamics begins to compete with spin as the dominating force.

quote:

Usually when you shorten the barrel and rechamber, the barrel will leave a big gap in the stock that you'll have to fix with glass bedding.

This rifle has the old step-barrel. The “contour†consists of just two different barrel diameters, stuck together about mid-way. Smaller diameter towards the muzzle.

Yes- I know the Spanish Mauser and when you move the shoulder of the barrel foeward, it will leave a gap in the stock that you will have to bed unless you add a aftermarket stock and bed that. As for Mag dimensions these cartidges should feed fery well. I have an old VZ24 action around here and may deceide to set it up to feed these things, barrel it and see how it works. I'm currently working on a pgm to make these bullets in under 1 minute machine time.
Addendum- I was just doing some measurements and a .45 ACP case is nearly identical in case rim dimensions to a 30-06. A .45ACP is .471 and a 30-06 is .469. My 30-06 bolt holds a loaded round perfectly and get this, it will feed and extract from a .458 win mag Rem 700 safari grade. looks like thats the real ticket for this round which I'm gonna name the .45 OVERKILL! I'm going to order a .452 1-7 twist barrel from Pac-Nor and try it on my switch barrel Rem 700. Add a supressor and this thing will absolutely rock.-Rob
-Rob

quote:

I'm going to order a .452 1-7 twist barrel

Your .458 OVERKILL cartridges are certainly breaking virgin ground, I think. The 1/7 twist is too, but it certainly needs to be tried. What’s the minimum number of lands/grooves you think might work? Do you think fewer grooves will reduce barrel drag?

I talked with Pac-Nor yesterday and ordered a 1:7 .451bore, .443 groove barrel with 1:7 twist, 6 grooves. Yes a three groove would be even better but gets far more costly and probably isnt necessary.I've shot similar Boreriders from six groove barrels before. They are making a new button and if any of you guys also want one of these barrels give Penny at Pac-Nor a call. She knows me from other similar group buy projects.. The price is about $250/barrel. I'll of course do the chambering and threading myself. I might be talked into doing a few more at the same time and long chamber them for your gunsmith to fit. I think the Rem700 platform will be the easiest to get rolling and has the big advantage of the ejector built into the bolt so that fired cases will eject early into the bolt cycle.This will be fun and interesting.Twice the muzzel velocity at the same weight of a 800gr Arrow but with only slightly reduced energy way out there as well as being very very quiet when supressed. All in a unique looking pkg. At these velocities, I think light weight Delrin bullets or some other polymer may also be very interesting for sub 100yrd shooting. I can also provide linotype bullet molds if there is a big enough demand.-Rob

The OVERKILL bullet reminds me of these:

“wasp waist†or “coke bottle†aircraft

Rob, when I see one of your loaded rounds, may be interested in buying a dummy if you're willing to sell.

Why not get a Mechtec carbine? It is a blowback action that you fit a 1911, Glock, etc. reciever to the carbine so you do not even need an FFL if you already have the pistol receiver.

What is that thing?! :O

It’s a “wasp waist†design. It is more stable aerodynamically at transonic velocities. Also, the wasp waist moves the center of gravity of the bullet forward. If spin-stabilization is not enough, aerodynamic stabilization will help out..