460 Bauer - a new big bore cartridge

Gary Bauer developed his own cartridge from a 404 Jeff case, lengthened to 3 inches and then necked down to accept a .458" bullet. The idea was to use a case big enough to avoid powder compression and the use of Somchem's S365 extruded powder to achieve much lower pressures than what is possible with the 458 Lott with its smaller case using S321 being a ball powder, and achieve a velocity of 2,300 fps with a 500 grain bullet.

Part of the problem with the 458 Lott has always been the possibility of caking with ball powders when its is loaded as a compressed load, and ammo is kept over till next season, its sensitivity for hot temperatures when exposed for a long duration, and the fact that mono-metals solids are rather long for the 458 Lott's case. The net result is thus that most PH's then download to 2,150 to 2,200 fps and generally select a shorter bullet such as Hornady's 500 gr FMJ or dropping down to a 480 gr bullet.

The feasibility of the new caliber came by way of a bigger case capacity :-

the 460 Bauer case has a water capacity of 134 grains, and
the 458 Lott case has a water capacity of 103 grains.

Here is a table of Gary's loads:



Comparison with other 458 cartridges - as can be seen here, the .458 caliber was subjected to a fair amount of experimentation to derive at the ideal cartridge, and yet the last word may not have been spoken on the subject, but the 460 Bauer is certainly a noteworthy offering, albeit a wildcat:



Soon after completion of the new cartridge and the load development, it had to be tested of buffalo, and here is the result with 550 gr Rhino Solid Shank bullets:



Gary's objective has been achieved with ease and at the same time a good test for Rhino's 550 grainer - good performance as can be seen. The 550 grain bonded bullet was loaded to 2,205 fps and the 500 grain brass solid was loaded to 2,330 fps. These velocities were achieved with ease without any sign of pressure - I spoke to Prof Koos Badenhorst (who co-authored the article with Gary) and the whole purpose was to reduce pressure and not about velocity maximization.

Congratulations Gary on a project that achieved all your objectives.

Warrior

It sounds interesting, jeje, but do not tie up to me that in the end I meet selling 458 Lott thinking that it is a bad cartridge .

Oscar.

Always interesting with new cartridges, but I don't quite see the need here..

A 460 G&A, with a full lenght 404-case, will produse 2350-2400 f/s with any of the 500-510gr bullets.
My own 460 makes 2376 f/s on average 5 shots with the 500 Hornady RN and 95 grains of N150. RWS cases and Fed 215 primers. The rifle is a rechambered 458 Brno 602(24 inch barrel).
The Norma 202 and 203B powder will make simular results.

m

Great another attempt to reinvent the wheel

Or perhaps this is a propellant specific design, since South Africans don't have easy access to powders from other countries.

Wink,

Quite so, as it was developed on SA soil, with SA powders. That means the velocity potential is far greater with foreign powders. But any velocity above the 2,300 fps with a 500 grain bullet becomes a moot exercise. As mentioned, the idea was to move away from a ball powder and to use an extruded powder without having a compressed load. That is considered a great plus for the design according to the authors of the article.

Warrior

Two friends sitting by their elephant - the excitement is over and they can relax. This time it was the turn of the 458 Express.



Warrior

All a lot of crap

Nothing a 450 Rigby does not do and has been doing for 15 years,

Reinventing the wheel - no I think the justificaton is having a round designed by oneself and cliaming it to be better than already exhisting calibres with factory ammo available as well

well done -- i understand the powders in RSA are not as flexible as those we have in the US .. though i am stunned that custom longer brass is easier to get.

the 458 ultracat, fred zeglin, is the same thing, but on a full length 300wum case .. and of course, my own 458 Accurate Reloading is on a shortened rum case ...

keep the vels under 2400, and the bullets will hold together better.

there's no 450 rigby/460weatherby comparison here, gents.. those cases are much larger .. though, frankly, one could acheive the same or better results with those cases, as the volume is larger

Walter,

The 450 Rigby is indeed a good one, but follow this:

Proliferation is a common thing with cartridges in various calibers and the big-bores are not exempt from it. Jack Lott did the same with the 450 Watts by making marginal changes to essentially the same case. Some others though picked a different case and turned it into different dimensions. At the end of the day it is all about capacity and pressure issues at a desired/targeted velocity. Which .458 cartridge shooting a 500 grainer is the best ? ..... and I am sure we will get many different opinions and it will revolve on issues like:

Availability of cases as the .458 bullets are freely available in Africa
Ease of forming the case, and here the 460 Bauer case is one of the easiest
Availability of factory ammo - here the 458 Win and 458 Lott ranks tops
The 458 Win round can be fired in a 458 Lott if need be - another plus for the Lott
The 450 Rigby has a relative low pressure vis-a-vis some of the others and that is a great plus

I'm not so sure if the 450 Rigby is truly a practical alternative for Africa. The 458 Lott is a far more practical choice than the 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota, 460 Weatherby Mag. But is the 458 Lott better in terms of its design? No, I do not think so for reasons already mentioned, and that is why some people still experiment with other designs. All these calibers can shoot the same bullet and all will kill equally well .... as the bullet is doing the killing.

It looks like Ruger has dropped the 458 Lott in its latest catalogue. CZ has commercialized the Lott recently, and on the CZ platform it can hold 5 rounds in the magazine, whereas the 460 Wby Mag can only hold 3 rounds. The American .458's seam to take a backseat against the CZ platform here in Africa. It is all about cost and availability.

Another thing, the 458 Lott is so entrenched at the various Park Boards and Lodges that I cannot see how one can change that trend, and for another .... one of my friends just load the 458 Lott to 2,150 fps and it is good for whatever comes his way - just stick a good bullet in and we have an array of good bullets today. Seen this way, where we do not have to reach the 'magic' 2,300 fps, there is no problem whatsoever. But here is the debacle; some are just not happy with this velocity of 2,150 fps that killed elephants for the last 100 years. But I suppose it is like all things, the quest to improve or to adapt something for practical reasons.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Ease of forming the case, and here the 460 Bauer case is one of the easiest

no sir -- bespoke brass to get it to 3" .. in fact, impossible to make from any other brass

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

It looks like Ruger has dropped the 458 Lott in its latest catalogue.

no sir -- i called and spoke with ruger -- the RSM in 458 lott is the best selling caliber in that rifle, and its their marque rifle .. one merely must look in the correct area, both on their website and catalog.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Warrior

http://www.ruger.com/products/...IIMagnum/models.html

or page 33 of their catalog
this is a slow to load link
http://www.ruger.com/footer/catalogViewer.html

Jeffe,

Thanks for references.

Warrior

Jeffe,

You make valid points. But they are based on US limitations.
This is SA. If they have a company that will make the basic case, then ease of forming is assured. Every cartridge in the world is dependent on that criteria.

This appears to be an excellent solution to the design parameters they were saddled with. All SA components, and a desire to replicate 458 Lott MV levels with less pressure.

If I moved to SA I would probably have to own one.

Rich

Rich
I seldom make unfounded statements. The article say custom Bertram brass. That's oz, not rsa

Warrior, I think that you are absolutely correct about velocities >2300 using these very large, heavy bullets.

A question. How is this new calibre superior to the .450 Dakota? Is that a matter of SA manufacture, or Idaho's comment about component availability, or something else?

Thanks for the interesting thread

How is this different then the 460 g&a or the 450 Vincent Long both are 404 cares 458 caliber 2300 + fps

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
How is this different then the 460 g&a or the 450 Vincent Long both are 404 cares 458 caliber 2300 + fps

3" case length. Its all in the thread starting post

I see But I do believe there was a 460 g&a long with a 3 inch case

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
I see But I do believe there was a 460 g&a long with a 3 inch case

thats okay to believe, except is 2.86" long case ... and when one add .800 to it, one finds a 3.66 oal, which is .01 longer than a 375hh .. which is the action it is designed to fit in.

the case is a fireformed jeffery .. 2.86

http://forums.gunsandammo.com/...rmation/460-gunsammo

Then awsener this jeff why does huntingtons from my memory show special order dies from RCBS for the 460 g&A long 3.00

i appologize.. you are talking about the mythical GA long, which was never shot, and I am talking about the 460GA, formed from 404 jeffery cases .. my mistake, i was wrong

quote:

the mythical GA long

No I was wrong you have much more of a knowledge of the wildcat culture and I was under the impression if dies are sold it had to of been made

It's still a fine cartridge if you live where brass is available. I think that is the point, isn't it?

Rich

quote:

It's still a fine cartridge if you live where brass is available. I think that is the point, isn't it?

Rich

When its put like that yes very correct

due to the high cost of punch dies, the only way one could make this brass was lathe turning stock ... and basically bertram was the only person making the 404 brass for about 20 years ... so, you could either lathe turn it, or solder on a seem ..

but here's the rub.. 3" case+ .800 nose to crimp means overlong bullets .. unless its a rigby action .. which is easier to do a 450 rigby on ...

which is the part of the logic as to why i built the AccRels "inside" the 375 rum cases ... fireform and trim them .. not try to get special/unobtanium brass

No opinion on this or any other .458' cartridge but seems like the market could use innovation in action design more than a couple thousand more chamberings. What's new since Mauser, Mannlicher, and Browning invented all the gear we're using now ..??

I know of at least 15 450 Rigby's being used by PH'S,

And we all think one way - AVAILABILITY AVAILIBILTY AVAILABILITY

I had chap phone me this year client arrived with 375 RUM, rifle arrived no ammo

Guess what happened too this guys dream hunt with his Custom rifle - yes he hunted his buff wth a borrowed H&H, No ammo could be found at that stage,

But I could lay my hands on 458Lott, 450 Rigby, and 458WM factory ammo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even 500NE, and 470NE at great cost but they were available

This gentleman happens to live in Africa. He does not have to deal with the import hassles. Evidently all the components were in hand before the rifle was built, and are still available.

He doesn't want to take anybody else's. He just wants to hunt DG with his own creation.

The Buffalo in the pictures looks pretty dead to me. That is the punchline...

regards,

Rich

I'm not convinced of the need here either, but...

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Great another attempt to reinvent the wheel

when has that ever stopped someone from developing a new wildcat?

Nor should it, if it is done at the cost of the individual who conceived of the idea.

1. The author does not claim superiority over the 450 Rigby, it was all about meeting his own objectives for our local conditions.

2. The platform used for the 460 Bauer was the ZKK 602 action as it is longer than the K98 action, and as mentioned 5 rounds in the magazine can be had instead of 3 as with most other actions. Most custom builders here prefer to us the ZZK/CZ actions as they are cheaper and more readily available than expensive magnum-length actions such as Wells and the like.

3. Gary ordered a 1,000 cases from Bertram's and they made it longer for him; 3.125" long and then after giving it a neck one just trims down to 3" - a very simple process. Our local Ammo producer is already making the 458 Lott case longer to suit the extra length of 3 mm required for the 458 Express (3"). PMP has now been approached to make the cases for the Bauer as well. This will drop the cost of the case even further. Big bore cases have become very expensive over the last decade. With local availability of the 404 case (made longer) it will also serve a dual purpose for 2 calibers.

4. The practicality of the 460 Bauer is that it can be made relatively cheap on the ZZK/CZ platform, with much cheaper cases for us, as it would be made locally as our currency is weak against foreign currencies. Handloading is required, which again makes it cheaper than buying expensive factory ammo from the USA. More on this later.

The idea was to get a bigger case capacity (134.41 grains water capacity), and it is based on the premise that one can only get so much energy from 1 grain of powder.

Warrior

With the greatest deference, I'm still wondering about my .450 Dakota question.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mauser 93,

Read point one above .... it goes for any American .458 caliber, including your 450 Dakota. Then read my very last sentence in my post above .... its all about case capacity, and how much powder we can stuff in there if max velocity is the issue. More pertinently then, the water case capacity of the 450 Dakota is 137 grains against 134 grains of the 460 Bauer.

As mentioned, the design objective or issue here was about practicality for the South African situation. Now apart from PRACTICALITY, there is also an AFFORDABILITY issue. Just as a comparative, I happen to have been given some figures with regard to the 458 Lott versus the local 458 Express, and we are going to see the very same position for the 460 Bauer when loaded with SA components. Here we go:

Norma PH ammo - 458 Lott (imported from Sweden) R23,000 for 100 rounds = R230/round
Handloading - 458 Express (with SA components):

Case ------ R10.50 (PMP case)
Bullet ----- R14.28 (Rhino Solid bullet)
Powder --- R 2.65 (SA powder)
Primer ---- R 0.65 (PMP primer)
Total Cost R28.08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------> R28.08/round

Please note - for practice the Claw bonded bullet can be used @ R7.50 to keep PH's and game wardens in good shape, which puts the revised cost at R 21.30. Say just 10 shots per month for practice - this translates to R27,600 vs R2,556 on a per annum basis = a differential of R 25,044 pa, and over just 10 years it is equal to R250,440. And so affordability then also becomes part of practicality. By now you can see where we are going if we project this situation over the working live of a PH over say 40 years - roughly a million bucks !!! And this is after tax money to boot.

Warrior

I do have a CZ in 450 Dakota, so it is not like I need one of these. That said, it is a good feeling to design and develop your own practical rifle cartridge and see it to fruition.

That is what this man has done, in SA; and I think he is to be congratulated. Nobody said you had to go buy one, just acknowledge the results and say "Nice."

Rich
DRSS

If I ever do a 45 in the lineup I want the 450 rigby.

Red

And if I ever created a wildcat I'd like it kept secret from some of the more personally abusive critics on this forum

As for the subject at hand, I had the pleasure of shooting two shots off with Gary's rifle at our recent AGM shoot in Pretoria. I also recently shot another friend's 450 Rigby which is throwing the 500 grainer at about 100 fps less.

It's no scientific test, and both rifles are a bit long for me, but I felt the Bauer was a bit more of a "pusher" than a "whacker" in terms of felt recoil. It stands to reason that if velocity can be reached with slower powder then "felt" recoil is, for want of a better term, more pleasant?

I happily aspire to own either calibre (or both!) and would really like to get my hands on one that fits me well. I see Gary has joined the forum so I'm sure we'll get some comment from him soon and another regular AR poster is just finishing his 460 Bauer so I believe that we'll be hearing a lot about this calibre in future.

And yes! It is great to have an appropriate calibre developed on the continent that has the appropriate beasts for it.
Ex Africa semper aliquid novi

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

Case ------ R10.50 (PMP case)
Bullet ----- R14.28 (Rhino Solid bullet)
Powder --- R 2.65 (SA powder)
Primer ---- R 0.65 (PMP primer)
Total Cost R28.08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------> R28.08/round

Please note - for practice the Claw bonded bullet can be used @ R7.50 to keep PH's and game wardens in good shape, which puts the revised cost at R 21.30. Say just 10 shots per month for practice - this translates to R27,600 vs R2,556 on a per annum basis = a differential of R 25,044 pa, and over just 10 years it is equal to R250,440. And so affordability then also becomes part of practicality. By now you can see where we are going if we project this situation over the working live of a PH over say 40 years - roughly a million bucks !!! And this is after tax money to boot.

Warrior

Warrior

Regarding this cost Case ------ R10.50 (PMP case)


Is that the total cost of the case or is it the cost of the case divided by the number of times reloaded ?


Also "10 shots per month for practice"

Once the gun is shot in, plus the shooting the PH would do in the field, why the need to shoot 10 shots per month for practice ?

.

The man had an idea and a dream and has followed it through to completion and harvested with his idea and dream. Good on him. It's an article of interest. There has to be some satisfaction in doing a project from "Start to Finish"
Take care
Dave

500N,

You seem to be quite cynical about what I have posted so far about Gary’s accomplishments for our local conditions. We cannot discount the cost factor of operating a big-bore cartridge nor the benefit of regular excercise.

Currently lodges go for the cheapest ammo for their Field Guides as they have to balance the cost with reality. Last year many overseas hunters deferred their hunting trips to the following year with serious consequences of our local industry, and needles to say cost cutting then becomes a reality. Currently there is no law that stipulates what the minimum shots fired should be over a period of time for Field Guides, but some of the better Lodges do in fact let their guides practice on a regular basis, and here is the kicker ….. many lodges skimp on shooting exercise due to prohibitively expensive costs, and they cannot be blamed for it, but with another proposition on the table to cut costs drastically, the mindset will change for the better for all concerned – the lodge, the guide and the client who can have more confidence in the proficiency of the guide that must look after him.

Regular exercise is always a good thing, and for another for a bit of fun to enjoy the big-bore cartridge of your choice. What fun would it be to just shoot 1 shot per month instead of 10 shots? Put another way, if we only pull 10 shots off every 3 months instead of every month, then at least we can cut the cost by shooting 40 rounds per annum instead of 120 rounds – that is a reduction of 2/3’s. So then instead of spending the R1,000,000 over 40 years, we now only spend R333,000. Would you be willing to donate a R333,333 … for nothing in return? PH’s and Field Guides at lodges are not exactly as highly paid as their clients and can do with this welcome windfall ‘profit’ if you like. I am sure that you know that PH’s always welcome a good tip as they go out to please their clients. Young and fledgeling PH’s must make it in the industry and they all start off from humble beginnings. Thus an economical big-bore cartridge, without sacrificing performance, would be a great benefit to the PH.

The cost of the PMP case is indeed that much lower than imported cases, and with handloading the cost drops on the second time that the case is being used in relation to buying factory ammo every time. Koos Badenhorst has now 20 reloads out of his original 458 Express cases. A cost saving that I have not even built into my cost comparison above, as it was just a ‘quick and dirty’ calculation to make the point of the extent of the savings that can be had. Imagine the additional cost saving when a case is being used 20 times. I am sure the saving stare us in the face.

Stefan Winterboer provides a service to 288 Lodges, and he confirmed to me how cost conscious these lodges are. Most of these lodges still buy PMP factory ammo at a higher cost. PMP does not load for any big-bore caliber bigger than 458 Win, and that runs at R37.50 per round i.r.o. 458 Win Mag ammo (475 gr PMP Solid). As for the reloading, most Lodges use 500 gr Dzombo FN Solids in their 458 Lotts. Many lodges shoot 458 Win ammo in their Lott’s due to cost considerations, but it is not ideal over the long run for the rifle. Some lodges though still only use the 458 Win to keep running costs lower and buy factory ammo, but even this route is far more expensive than loading for the Express and Bauer.

I trust the above gives a better insight into the feasibility and practicality of reloading for the 458 Express and 460 Bauer, being the 2 most economical big-bores to run currently here in Africa. A 150 plus 458 Lott’s have been converted so far to the 458 Express according to Prof Koos Badenhorst. The pressure of the Lott is too high with our local powder S335 with compressed loads that are the norm of day with this cartridge, running up to 67,000 psi, whereas the Express can be run at 62,000 psi with the same powder. Gary's cartridge, the 460 Bauer with its larger case capacity, can use S365 and drop the pressure even further ... lab tests still have to be carried out once a proof barrel has been made. No doubt that it will confirm a further substantial drop in pressure.

Just for some comparisons on other big-bore calibers - this is what we have to pay here in SA (prices from Rosenthal the new agent) Norma PH range with Woodleigh bullets per hundred:

416 Rigby .... R16,745
450 Rigby .... R17,330

458 Win ...... R 6,660 (with Swift A-Frame)
458 Lott ..... R17,635
500 Jeff ...... R19,090
505 Gibbs ... R20,560

470 NE ...... R17,635
500 NE ...... R19,990

Now compare this with a round that can be loaded for less than R30/round and with reloading where the cost of the case is free with the second shot when it is less than R20/round using a Rhino bullet or equivalent such as the Dzombo.

Warrior

Kalahari Arms, our local importer of Weatherby rifles and ammo, sells 460 Wby Mag ammo for R2,1440/20, thus R107.20 per round. The Wby ammo is loaded with Hdy FMJ's and Softs - same price for either one.

It is a lot cheaper than the Norma PH range, but still way off if we can load here between R30 (first time) to R20 (recurring) per round.

I could not locate 450 Rigby ammo anywhere, I also phoned VLT one of the main shops in Pretoria.

Handloading provides the reloader with the best of both worlds - he can pick his bullet of choice and do it cheaper - a lot cheaper.

As for practise shooting, the handloader is in the the best position, as he can use The Claw Soft Bullet at R7.50 each as opposed to the more expensive Rhino Solid at R14.28 - almost half the cost. In fact this is what Sabi Sands do with their guides. They practice instinctive shooting as is the case with members of the Big Bore Ass. of SA at their regular meetings. How many times have we seen PH's getting jams in quick successive shooting during practise runs on moving targets, and so it just goes to underscore the importance of regular shooting and how they improve. I am sure Stepen Palos can comment on this aspect in much greater detail.

http://www.bigbore.org/index.p...ticle&id=48&Itemid=8

Warrior