Warrior,

Thanks.
No, not cynical, just asking - and in relation to the costings,
I hear people complain about the cost of brass but they never
seem to factor in that you use it 10 - 20 times, hence my question.


One last question. Isn't this a bit contradictory ? The lodges are "cost conscious" but buy "factory ammo at a higher cost"

"Stefan Winterboer provides a service to 288 Lodges, and he confirmed to me how cost conscious these lodges are. Most of these lodges still buy PMP factory ammo at a higher cost."


Good luck with your or his endeavours.

.

Wow, I can absolutely say that I am surprised to be counted among the "personally abusive" critics on the forum.

Maybe I was too fast in making a reply, I read, then looked at the pics, decided I still like the way the 450 rigby looks, and made a post simply making a statement. Had I wanted to be abusive I'm sure I could have, however I too think if a person wants to make a wildcat for whatever reason, limelight, fit a niche, fit components available to them, excuse for another rifle, that it is just fine. It's what drives our sport and without that things would tend to be stale. It is a cool looking cartridge, for me personally if I ever get a 45 it will be an off the shelf affair and cz chambers the 450 rigby.

I wonder if I'm on anybodies ignore list yet?

Red

500N,

Ok, let me clarify:

a) Some lodges stay with the 458 Win to buy locally made factory ammo to avoid buying expensive imported 458 Lott ammo, or any of the other more expensive big-bores. Some also shoot 458 Win ammo in the 458 Lott to save as they have no reloading equipment.

b) Some lodges prefer to pay the higher price for .458 Win factory ammo (ie R37-50/round), rather than to invest in reloading equipment, avoid the labour part of reloading, or to convert a 458 Lott and start saving on reloaded ammo, and then effect savings in the worst place by letting their guides shoot less in practising rounds - a false economy.

It is about a mindshift that some lodges still have to make to reload and affect savings that way, rather than to argue that 458 local factory ammo is cheaper than imported ammo of bigger calibers that PMP does not offer in SA. This way they think they save, but they do not fully explore all alternatives.

Hope I have put it a bit clearer this time.

Warrior

Warrior

Yes, fine, thanks. A Mental shift - hard to do !!!


It would be interesting to know if after continuous firing of
the 458WM ammo in the 458 Lott chamber if the ends of the
chamber become "pitted", a bit like some 500 x 3 1/4" chambers
in BP guns where 3" ammo was used, the result being that if you
then went back to 3 1/4" ammo, on firing the case mouth expanded
into the greater size of the chamber and caused extraction problems.

Since they fire quite a few rounds, they are the one's who may know.

.

Another reality .... the vast majority of South Africans cannot afford to shoot buffalo and elephant. They are priced in US Dollars, and our currency is just too weak for such opulence. So, the DG are essentially destined for foreigners that come here with their stronger currency to hunt them.

Basically only the affluent run big-bores in SA, and then of course the guides and the PH's that must earn their bread and butter with a big-bore back-up rifle.

Only a very small percentage of hunters in SA own bigger than a .375 and some of these are being put against buffalo, and that might also be a singular event for many.

The foreigners are truely privillaged as far as this is concerned, and so when foreigners come here with their Dakotas and Rigbys then we are just eyes to check it out and say wow. The 460 Bauer is also a wow cartridge for us with its huge case capacity.

Warrior

quote:

500N,

Ok, let me clarify:

a) Some lodges......

Hope I have put is a bit cleared this time.

quote:

Hope I have put is a bit clearer this time.

2nd Attempt. Keep trying, you may get it right.

This piece goes some way towards explaining speed writing and the reading thereof - only if you have half a brain and can separate what is important from what is not:-

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy. it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!

Warrior

The point is NOT whether there are already some shooter that will do the same thing...the point is the man did his own thing...he made his own creation for a specific reason and use...he went about doing HIS own thing...for HIS own pleasure...not to please anyone else, and for this he got pissed on from all directions.

Even the Pro-Bono's were off in La La land with their visions and dreams of what HIS reality actually was.

If it wasn't for innovation or doing something new or we would still be throwing rocks...correction...we're STILL throwing rocks...mindlessly.

ANYONE out there can do his own named cartridge if their not stuck in the muck or their mind isn't atrophied.

As usual a perfectly good beginning to an interesting post turned into a pissing contest.

Luck

FOOBAR,

Thanks for stepping in here and your positive comments about Gary's project.

Also that you identified the rock thrower here ... that is all he does, all the time ... no contribution ever from him in all his posts. No contribution to this thread either, but to point out an inadvertent spelling mistake. He is so brilliant, and yet we cannot learn a thing from him.

Warrior

quote:

Hope I have put it a bit clearer this time.

metric, Express_Rifles, Kwan, jeffeosso, mauser93, Macifej, umshiniwam, Dago Red and me. All a bunch of rock throwers and all have been chastised: Do not throw rocks at Warrior! He can throw rocks, be stupid, make mistakes and be wrong as much as he wants but please do not point this out. You will be labeled a rock thrower.



Anyone seen this bit of junk science? It is rather amusing. (C. Bekker is Warrior, by the way.)
http://www.reloadersnest.com/a...er_angle_oct2603.asp

AR readers,

There is only one rock thrower here and his name is VVarrior, all the other people engage, ask questions, make comments, have the right to disagree, put alternatives forward, post something of interest or value, or whatever ..... but you post nothing .... nothing ..... nothing - nothing ever that we can learn from !!!!

How pitiful, deplorable, pathetic and disgraceful to sit and just point out spelling mistakes, rather than to contribute some ideas of value, but you find the time to poke your finger in my eye, as if this is your only mission here on AR. If you have something against me, why not meet with me instead of starting a pissing match here.

Warrior

I may of come off as a nay sayer at first but all I can say is good on this guy it would be pretty cool to whack any sort of game with a cartridge you made from start to finish

quote:

Originally posted by VVarrior:

quote:

Hope I have put it a bit clearer this time.

metric, Express_Rifles, Kwan, jeffeosso, mauser93, Macifej, umshiniwam, Dago Red and me. All a bunch of rock throwers and all have been chastised: Do not throw rocks at Warrior! He can throw rocks, be stupid, make mistakes and be wrong as much as he wants but please do not point this out. You will be labeled a rock thrower.



Anyone seen this bit of junk science? It is rather amusing. (C. Bekker is Warrior, by the way.)
http://www.reloadersnest.com/a...er_angle_oct2603.asp

I got no beef with Warrior nor he me. Besides, I throw bricks not rocks.

Awww Warrior, don't get your knickers in a twist. Look at the positive side of this: You don't have to dodge rocks from Express_Rifles and Macifej will only lob bricks. Besides, someone has to keep you on your toes and ensure that your google-fu does not get out of hand.

quote:

There is a venturi effect, if one reduces the diameter of a pipe or nozzle and likewise when one necks down a cartridge case.

You are more fun than a barrel of monkeys with some of the statements you make.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
AR readers,

There is only one rock thrower here and his name is VVarrior, all the other people engage, ask questions, make comments, have the right to disagree, put alternatives forward, post something of interest or value, or whatever ..... but you post nothing .... nothing ..... nothing - nothing ever that we can learn from !!!!

How pitiful, deplorable, pathetic and disgraceful to sit and just point out spelling mistakes, rather than to contribute some ideas of value, but you find the time to poke your finger in my eye, as if this is your only mission here on AR. If you have something against me, why not meet with me instead of starting a pissing match here.

Warrior

Warrior, it does not continue the game of this personage. You continue with the thread, if we all ignore this personage he will get bored. Do not get angry, it is not worth it.

Oscar.

Thanks for the URL. I enjoy what Warrior has to say. Not saying I agree with him 100%, but at least he has done his homework first.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

There is a venturi effect, if one reduces the diameter of a pipe or nozzle and likewise when one necks down a cartridge case.

Rich,

OK, let me explain what that other simpleton could not see.

I actually disproved the postulate that was proposed at the time ..... BY SOMEONE ELSE, not by me, as I am not an engineer that studied venturi effects - perhaps it is not even the correct word.

However, that is the essence of my article when I concluded that the so called 'venturi effect' does not hold water across a range of calibers, and as such, it is not a universal principle. Anybody that can read knows not to take one sentence out of context but should follow all the arguments and see what the closing paragraph has to say as a CONCLUSION of the debate - I guess that is pretty simple. Only simpletons cannot see that, or as I suspect, just the desire to ridicule by one who has a vindictive agenda. And this vindictive asshole's name is VVarrior.

The sentence in question should have more precisely stated .... "There is an apparent venturi effect proposed by some, if one reduces the diameter of a pipe or nozzle and likewise when one necks down a cartridge case". This is the very statement that I then explored by making some calculations , and then tested them to reality, as observed by the most popular target shooting cartridges out there.

Yes, this was my task to have a bit of fun and to see how it stacks up to reality.
Now can anyone come to a different conclusion that I have come to?
If so, I would dearly love to read a disertation laying this matter out.

Warrior

Rich, and here is the concluding pargraph that VVarrior either missed, could not understand, or elected to willfully ignore in terms of his vindictive agenda that he runs against me .... and I quote:

"So, it is not quite so simple to explain, as cartridges do have different lengths, different capacities and they all yield different pressure levels, which contributes to the efficiency of the burning, whereas the shoulder angle has to do with convergence and the neck length to absorb the collision of hundreds of particles. Furthermore, the above need to be brought in line with different throat dimensions that will affect the chamber pressure as well, as it too forms part of the overall combustion volume. Each cartridge uses its own propellant to work optimally and there is no magic formula for that. As burning rates differ, we know that some propellants work better than others in a given cartridge, and in some cases Somchem do not have the equivalent propellant of overseas manufacturers. In Rifle Accuracy Facts by Harold Vaughn, he stated the effects of bullet "cant" and verified that ‘how the bullet enters the rifling’ has a very dramatic and predictable effect on accuracy. He also discusses throat diameter and alignment with the bore and states that nearly every factory chamber he has studied was deficient in this regard.

So, many factors seem to be at work and it seems the jury is still out on explaining exactly the accuracy phenomenon of the 6 mm PPC, rather than solely case design and dimensions. We need a universal truth across a range of cartridges, before we can say the theory works."

Warrior

there is something to what Warrior says, else the 6PPC (with the same capacity)would not have so rapidly replaced the 6x47 in Bench Rest. Less than a year...

Rich

From 24 Hour Campfire:

"I regularly shoot benchrest matches at 300 yds. We have over the years had a few 6 BR's that did well in our matches. But, as a general rule, the 6ppc still rules the roost at 300 yds. Beyond that the BR starts coming into it's own." ..... Pooch

Warrior

Warrior, Thank you for starting an interesting thread. I learned a bit about Somchem, shooting and hunting in Africa. I am sure this is a lot different experience than flying over for a week.

Is it safe to assume the hunters in SA can more effectively load the old classic cordite rounds than the latest improved so-called hi efficiency designs? If I could only go one way, I rather have powder for the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs than the new and improved. Fortunatley, here in the USA we don't have to make that choice.

quote:

We need a universal truth across a range of cartridges, before we can say the theory works.

The accuracy of the 6 mm PPC is unsurpassed out to 300 yards – not even the 6.5-284 Norma can compare with it. The 6 mm PPC has a short case length of 1.503”, a 30 degree shoulder angle, a neck length of .301” and a point of convergence at 69.9% of its neck length.

However at 1,000 yards, the 6.5-284 Norma has been winning most of the competitions recently. Its measurements are, case length of 2.155”, a sharper shoulder angle of 35 degrees, but with a shorter neck of .270 and it culminates that it has a similar point of convergence of 69.6%. When this same logic, that seems to support this theory, is applied to other cartridges like the 308 Winchester, it does not make sense.

Warrior

My name is John, and I am a 460Baueraholic

I am in the process of having my 460 Bauer rifle built by Alan Henry of Natal Gun Company.
It is based on a Brno 602. the metalwork is basically completed and I just have to rustle up the balance of the funds to have the new stock made.
Since the 602 started out life as a 458 with the monte carlo stock, I have 2 observations.
The barrel profile of the brno in 375 and 458 are damn near identical so the gun is a tad lighter than it could be, and we cut the barrel back to around 20" and put the sling band on the barrel rather than the stock where it can bite you. All this is fine since I hope to spend most time carrying it and watching my clients have all the fun.
Recoil is not something that bothers me over much, my personal DG rifle is a 500ne single shot which weighs in at 7lbs 9 oz.
The second observation is the nasty monte carlo has to go, and a new custom stock has been commissioned accordingly for use with express sights

Now all I have to do is sell some more hunts so I can afford both my sons varsity fees and get my rifle from Alan

quote:

The powder granules will collide and converge at some point, which can still be inside the neck or just outside depending on the shoulder angle of the case.

Fourbore,

The 416 cartridge case was intentionally designed to be large for use in a bolt action rifle for use in the hot climates with the express idea to keep pressures at bay. At the time, 1911, the cartridge was originally loaded with cordite, a powder that resembles long spaghetti strands that burns very hot and is sensitive to changes in ambient temperature. Like many cartridges designed by the British in this era, most of its intended use would have been in the hot climates of Africa and India. Large increases in chamber pressure often resulted under such conditions, sometimes making it difficult to extract fired cartridges, something that would be virtually impossible with the .416 Rigby.

With modern powders today we have gained about 100 fps in this cartridge using H4831. From "Any Shot you want" by Art Alphin the following load is given:

97.0 grains of H4831 400 grain A-Square bullets yields a MV of 2,328 fps, and at
101.0 grains we can get 2,448 fps.
The latter load had a maximum average pressure of 47,000 psi.
These loads used A-Square brass and CCI-250 primers, and were developed in a 26" test barrel.

The internal ballistics with such low pressure is one of the lowest of DG bolt action cartridges.
This was the major selling point of the cartridge in a bolt action rifle.
Tony Sanchez Arino was perhaps the man that have elevated this cartridge to its cult status.
Its use on elephant is legendary - Harry Selby and Tony Sanchez shot literally thousands of elephant.
According to Tony the 416/400gr combo at 2,400 fps will out penetrate just about all the NE calibers.

The 416 Rigby is certainly one of the best ever, but its cases have become scarce in Africa.
If not for that I suspect it would still have been the number one choice today.

Here is a great read in American Rifleman by Harry Selby:

http://www.americanrifleman.or...42-kwaherisafari.pdf

Warrior

Rich,

Perhaps it is pertinent to mention the famous P.O. Ackley here in this thread as well with regard to this whole question of shoulder angle versus neck length and powder behaviour that also spawned Wnichester's short-cased magnums.

Just for background ..... Parker Otto Ackley was born May 25th, 1903 in Granville, New York. A graduate of Syracuse University in 1927, P.O. Ackley began his career as a skilled gunsmith in 1936. He became famous for his barrel making and gunsmithing skills in the early 1950's, worked from his shop in Ogden Utah and began writing columns for the several shooting publications. His two books for shooters and reloaders were published in 1962 and 1966 and are both available from MidwayUSA.

Mr. Ackley was one of the pioneers in the world of cartridge design and refinement. He was also known for designing the blown-out "Ackley Improved" case with a 40 degree shoulder, parallel sides which increased case capacity for more velocity, but also with less bolt thrust. It is interesting to observe the sharp shoulder angle, as he also advanced the theory of less throat erosion as a result .... if one extends the line of the shoulder from both sides of the cartridge and if the lines meet beyond the mouth of the cartridge, then throat erosion becomes worse, as he believed that a lot of the erosion is caused by the "bead blasting" effect of unburned powder as it strikes the bore, as not all powder is burnt inside the cartridge case.

Let me quote ..... "Exponents of the sharp shoulder ideas feel that the sharp shoulder creates greater resistance to the burning powder thus holding more of it in the case during the burning process, which prevents such a high percentage of unburned powder being blown out into the throat of the barrel to create a sand blasting effect at which point erosion quickly destroys accuracy." - Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol. I, Parker O. Ackley, page 158 (1962).

The above suggests that P.O.Ackley also believed that there was a varying dispersion angle of unburned powder based on the shoulder angle and the length of the neck, as being discussed in the article that I wrote.

Here is a link .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.O._Ackley to view a .243 Winchester round beside the Ackley Improved version; note the reduced case taper and sharper shoulder angle typical of the Ackley Improved cartridges.

Pity we can't see exactly what is happening inside the case at the time of firing the shot, and hence the different postulates.

Warrior

quote:

The above suggests that P.O.Ackley also believed that there was a varying dispersion angle of unburned powder based on the shoulder angle and the length of the neck, as being discussed in the article that I wrote.

I would like to thank one and all for wishing Gary good luck and to enjoy his new rifle. Also, that Prof Koos planted the idea with Gary and to motivate him to carry through with his project. Two great guys.

Warrior

500 Nitro,

maybe you talking here a bit about your PH company would generate a little business to cover school costs and that rifle, eh?

Rich

VVarrior,

have you ever considered contributing anything to this thread? Just curious what you have to ADD to the discussion.

A PH friend of mine is currently busy getting a 416 Taylor made for himself for use on large game such eland. He is not a DG hunter, but he stated that he wanted something bigger than a 375 H&H, but not as big a 458 Win as he does not need to shoot 500 grain bullets. He figured that the 416 Taylor would be more versatile than the 458 Win, and so he wants to shoot 350/400 grain bullets targeting them at:

350 grainers @ 2,350 fps, and
400 grainers @ 2,250 fps.

I looked at these loads, and he may just get there with our powders .... http://www.accuratereloading.com/416t.html

If we could only have RL15 powder available in our country - it seems so ideal for pushing a 400 grainer from 2,276 fps up to 2,438 fps.
And 2,357 fps is smack in the middle with RL 15.

So getting 2,350 fps with a 350 gr bullet with SA powders should be achievable.

I know in America the 416 Taylor got side-lined by the advent of the better 416 Remington(about 50 fps more), but here in SA cases can be formed from 458 Win brass that is freely available and cheap as it is made by our local ammo producer PMP. His motivation is that he does not need the recoil of the 458 Win and he can kill adequately with a 350 gr Barnes-X or TSX bullet giving better velocity and a flatter trajectory as the 350 TSX has a better BC than the typical round noses that PMP loads in their 458 Win ammo. I just noticed that Weatherby loads their .416 ammo also with TSX bullets (350 gr @ 2,880 fps). Now that Swift A-Frame bullets are availble in SA in component form, it would be another nice option.

I heard that CZ is going to chamber for the 416 Taylor. Does anyone know whether they have done it or not?
Also, has the 416 Taylor been CIP certfied and does Norma offer factory ammo.?

Warrior

Rich,
My contribution is to make readers aware of the fact that Warrior is a straw man. He "writes" about things he knows nothing about, as if he were the expert on the subject. I know little about ballistics and rifles, that is why I follow the threads here. I do know more than average about other subjects because I work in those areas. Every time Warrior touches on a subject I know, it becomes apparent he is talking nonsense. Therefore, when he mouths off about subjects about which I need to improve my understanding and I run what he says past other people I consider in the know, it turns out he is talking nonsense.

I can only conclude that he knows little about even less and is fooling many readers into his bogus science points of view. We should be advancing our understanding of matters and he is not helping.

The point under discussion in that "article" about shoulder angle and neck length is a good example. I have no beef about why some cases give more consistent accuracy than others but the stupid idea that the powder granules converge at a point that is calculated is so ridiculous I cannot believe that anyone could take him seriously.

His further effort to show that Ackley believed as he does is laughable. Notice that I do not venture opinion other than that which I know of. In this case it is gas borne particle flow within a tube. The danger I see here is that he may be believed.

Note also his reversion to type. I question his view and ridicule it. He attacks the persona with insults and crassness.

Rich,

Despite my previous posting that the postulate of the convergence point is not my own, VVarrior comes back and says it is mine. That is the deceit.

I stated that I tested the postulate, and found that it did not hold water across a range of calibers.

All I could do was to compare it with benchrest calibers to see if there were a definite trend, but to no avail. I stated that clearly in no uncertain terms.

I also did not state anywhere that it is a piece of scientific work.

I did not conduct tests, I only did calculations to relate it to reality by observation.

That is very far from a scientific dissertation, and not submitted as such, as VVarrior alluded to.

Sadly, some just criticize, or drink beer, or sit on the sofa and to stare at the horizon.

And that is all.

Interesting that VVarrior must track that article down, bring it to this thread that has nothing to do with the subject matter of the 460 Bauer, and make an issue about it - this shows clearly his vindictiveness. And at the same time does not give us a proper treatise here, that qualifies as a scientific dissertation, for the common good of mankind.

So there we have it in his own words .... his sole purpose here on AR is to follow me around and poke his finger in my eye. And if there is nothing to attack on, he finds inadvertent spelling mistakes as if this forum is about submitting essays for an English Literature exam. That is the nature of the beast - 125 posts and 99% of them an attack on me ... that is what the record says .... get a life.

No original posting either of any sort ever from him on all those subjects that he knows better on any subject matter on AR, and there is a host of them. That means AR is not meant for him - he has no life here.

Warrior

quote:

So there we have it in his own words .... his sole purpose here on AR is to follow me around and poke his finger in my eye.

I agree, and this is painfully obvious. V V arrior should be banned from the site. His motives are clear and toxic.

What does it take to get banned if not self professed mission of personal attack? The name and location says it all "V V arrior" It is a 100% personal attack, nothing more.

Please, GeorgeS - put this to an end. Block the name and the IP address.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

So there we have it in his own words .... his sole purpose here on AR is to follow me around and poke his finger in my eye.

I agree, and this is painfully obvious. V V arrior should be banned from the site. His motives are clear and toxic.

What does it take to get banned if not self professed mission of personal attack? The name and location says it all "V V arrior" It is a 100% personal attack, nothing more.

Please, GeorgeS - put this to an end. Block the name and the IP address.

I agree with you. The member of the forum V Varrior V Varrior has to be excluded from the forum, for the free attacks to Mister Warrior.

Oscar.

Warrior,
Are you saying, with a straight face, that you do not believe the shoulder angle of a case determines where the powder granules will strike the inner wall of the tube, downstream from the reduction in diameter?

Fourbore and Ovny,
Would you prefer that Warrior continues the deceit and his attacks on those members he disagrees with? What about Warrior following members around with the sole purpose of discrediting them? Is that OK?

VVarrior,

you have not been given a moderator's position or warrant here. Nobody has except the moderators.

Stalking another poster is not your job. It does not make you looked at in a positive light. These outbursts simply make you seem like some petty and vindictive child.

You have people here calling for you to be banned from the website. That should enlighten you as to the tone and value of your posts.

regards,

Rich

Rich,
Is it called stalking when a member disagrees with another?

I repeat the question. Let us use your term "stalk". Is it in order for one member to "stalk" another but not for anyone else to do so?

Warrior whines about being challenged on a technical level and replies with personal attacks and name calling and that is not a problem to you? Every time he is challenged, he resorts to insult, regardless of who disagrees with him. The man is scamming you and you seem not to care.

quote:

Originally posted by VVarrior:
Warrior,
Are you saying, with a straight face, that you do not believe the shoulder angle of a case determines where the powder granules will strike the inner wall of the tube, downstream from the reduction in diameter?

Fourbore and Ovny,
Would you prefer that Warrior continues the deceit and his attacks on those members he disagrees with? What about Warrior following members around with the sole purpose of discrediting them? Is that OK?

Hello V Varrior, what I do not want is clashes, and I have seen that whenever Warrior writes something you provoke. That's why I it was you who have asked for expulsion, but I am not who to judge anybody and if you behave as it stems I rectify my position with regard to you.

Oscar.

V Varrior, I understand his position, but you do your defense without falling down in what perhaps he wants that you fall down. I withdraw my request of his expulsion, perhaps my short understanding of English has led me to without understanding the tone of the discussion. I believe that the participation of all the members of the forum has to be free inside the respect to the others. In the written language sometimes the tones do not go so far as to receive. I do not wish tricks in the forum, only I want the truth, and respectful debates. The insult has to be an exile of a way in the one that is easy to insult the others for the impunity that to hide after a nick grants.

My excuses V Varrior,

Oscar.


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