"Experts"

21 November 2017, 23:54

DArcy_Echols_Co

"Experts"

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of faith one places on how to sky dive based on the facts driveled forth by an online authority that has never actually stepped outside the plane.

It's no secret that Phil and I have been friends for quite some time. There is also no doubt that if Phil told me I'd be just fine hunting bears with him if the only rifle I had to kill a Brown Bear was a 30-06. We would likely suggest a bullet to use and that it was up to me to arrive with that bullet and be damn sure as to where that bullet would be directed.

I have never seen a Brown Bear but I'm also not stupid and would pay damn good attention to any facts given as Phil is an expert, a real one, not a wanna-be sitting above a worn out key board.

The same things applies to the lowly 458 Win. There are more than a few guys that have filled a couple of long train car loads using the std 458.

You don't like or want to use a 458, no problem, don't. But to continue this ridicules rant that it's a sorry caliber is pretty senseless.

So you used in once in Zim and had to shoot your Ele or Buff 8 times. Until you've killed a hundred Buffalo or Ele's with it you're an amateur. You may have an opinion but your still very new on the street. Only a very few of us are ever going to be able to afford to due a lot of regimented testing for true data samples.

Will somebody please tell Saeed he's under gunned because I'm tired of getting all those great vids from Tanzania. Using that 375/404 is no doubt going to get him killed 4 or 5 lifetimes from now.

There is stuff I read on this site repeatedly that just makes me scratch my bald head and chuckle.

But that's just me.

22 November 2017, 00:07

AFRICAN LEADWOOD

Good point.
Now... Please pay no attention to D'Arcy guys! We would have little left to talk about if took heed...

22 November 2017, 00:19

jeffeosso

D'Arcy --
well said -- in fact, i wouldn't feel undergunned with an original 8x57, with handloads, of course, in any situation where "30-06" is also an answer ...

the 458 winmag has the external ballistics to do the job - and sure, it works fine -- and NO, it doesn't need a 31" barrel to be effective ..

22 November 2017, 05:51

carpetman1

Darcy--That same logic is all over this forum. Past several years Ive taken nephews, grandsons etc deer hunting and they drop deer with .222 and .223. Pretty fair amount of experience and to be very honest the results have very much exceeded what I would have thought before it was done. The key board experts with no experience MIGHT agree it can be done---but they add the caveat IF you use a heavy PREMIUM bullet.(That is almost always the first clue they have never done it). It doesn't take a premium bullet. A plain old cup and core in the right spot, ends the fun, work begins, sharp knife needed. Nobody can explain to me how a deer hit in the lungs, liver or heart or combination thereof is not going to die fairly close to where that happened. The next thing is that if the shot was a little bad, the MAGNUM will drop em on the spot anyways. Bigger kill zone if you use a magnum?

22 November 2017, 06:37

RIP

Worth repeating,
copied to the "458 winchester magnum" thread.
Thanks to DArcy_Echols_Co.

quote:
Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of faith one places on how to sky dive based on the facts driveled forth by an online authority that has never actually stepped outside the plane.

It's no secret that Phil and I have been friends for quite some time. There is also no doubt that if Phil told me I'd be just fine hunting bears with him if the only rifle I had to kill a Brown Bear was a 30-06. We would likely suggest a bullet to use and that it was up to me to arrive with that bullet and be damn sure as to where that bullet would be directed.

I have never seen a Brown Bear but I'm also not stupid and would pay damn good attention to any facts given as Phil is an expert, a real one, not a wanna-be sitting above a worn out key board.

The same things applies to the lowly 458 Win. There are more than a few guys that have filled a couple of long train car loads using the std 458.

You don't like or want to use a 458, no problem, don't. But to continue this ridicules rant that it's a sorry caliber is pretty senseless.

So you used in once in Zim and had to shoot your Ele or Buff 8 times. Until you've killed a hundred Buffalo or Ele's with it you're an amateur. You may have an opinion but your still very new on the street. Only a very few of us are ever going to be able to afford to due a lot of regimented testing for true data samples.

Will somebody please tell Saeed he's under gunned because I'm tired of getting all those great vids from Tanzania. Using that 375/404 is no doubt going to get him killed 4 or 5 lifetimes from now.

There is stuff I read on this site repeatedly that just makes me scratch my bald head and chuckle.

But that's just me.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

22 November 2017, 07:18

Ray B

I think the problem results from cartridge appearance - after all, the 458 win Mag is Soooo much smaller than the 416 Rigby and its belted copies, the Weatherby bunch. Anyone can just look at them and tell that they exceed by a large margin anything the Win Mag can do. The answer, of course is in the details of loading a powder compatible to producing the necessary pressure for desired length of time, regardless as to case volume.

22 November 2017, 10:49

Cougarz

DArcy,

All very true, but in today's world every body is an expert - all you have to do is ask them!

22 November 2017, 16:44

aephilli

But... but... but... ELMER said..............

22 November 2017, 19:19

nopride2

My take on experts is they who talk loudest and longest. We all know the 458 Win won't kill, the bullets bounce off the hide. I read it on the internet.

Dave

22 November 2017, 20:47

analog_peninsula

I'm not an expert, but I play one on TV ...

22 November 2017, 21:14

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by Ray B:
I think the problem results from cartridge appearance - after all, the 458 win Mag is Soooo much smaller than the 416 Rigby and its belted copies, the Weatherby bunch. Anyone can just look at them and tell that they exceed by a large margin anything the Win Mag can do. The answer, of course is in the details of loading a powder compatible to producing the necessary pressure for desired length of time, regardless as to case volume.

I certainly hate mentioning handguns, as there seems to be even more big bore "experts" in that field than with rifles but I have always contended that the 458 Win is much like the 45 acp. It does not appear as large and impressive as it's well earned reputation would suggest.

23 November 2017, 00:16

Atkinson

No argument here, and experts have flamed me for not being a .458 fan and tell me I said the 458 isn't suitable for DG, and that's BS and I never said such, not one time!..

I am not a .458 fan but I have said many times its a killer of DG and of that I have no doubt..I still prefer the Lott loaded down to 2200 FPS give or take 50 FPS, and like the option of 2400 FPS if I need it.

And yes, I would hunt any animal on the face of the earth with a 30-06 and not feel particularly undergunned, might wish I had a 500 from time to time. that's about it.

This post however could do away with AR as we might not have anything to discuss if every bodys papers are graded!!

23 November 2017, 05:32

RIP

Glad to see Atkinson is moderating his claims for the .458 Lott a bit.

Here is a fact, not opinion:

The standard, SAAMI .458 WinMag (3.340" COL) can do 2200 fps with 500 grainer,
at 2500 PSI LOWER PRESSURE than a standard, SAAMI .458 Lott (3.600" COL) does at 2250 fps with same bullet.

It is all in the throat, and the handloader can work wonders with that .458 WinMag throat.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
...

24 November 2017, 04:39

Robgunbuilder

In my Ruger No1 .458 win mag, I can load bullets out .25 inches and add more powder to easily match Lott velocities. I like the .458 win mags in M98 Mauser actions. Nice handy weapon but I like more power usually!

24 November 2017, 04:47

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Glad to see Atkinson is moderating his claims for the .458 Lott a bit.

Here is a fact, not opinion:

The standard SAAMI .458 WinMag can do 2200 fps with 500 grainer,
at 2500 PSI LOWER PRESSURE than a standard SAAMI .458 Lott does at 2250 fps with same bullet.

It is all in the throat, and the handloader can work wonders with that .458 WinMag throat.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip

So many possible jokes around this "Deep Throat" of the 458 Winmag.
Winmag-gate?

24 November 2017, 07:46

ozhunter

Quite true. Had a Lass kill two buffalo this season with a 7x57! However, don't get upset at me for carrying a 458 or 470

24 November 2017, 22:40

Atkinson

Rip, shame on you, I have not modified meself, ya just ain't listening!!

Oz,
I also shot a cape buffalo with a 7x57, I figured if Bell did it, and he put his pants on one leg at a time just like me, I could do it and I did..the bull rand 75 or a 100 yards and expired..

I witnessed a PH shoot and elephant in the heart with a 7x57 with a solid and it rand a hundred or so yards and expired..

Stunts can be entertaining sometimes..

24 November 2017, 23:02

boom stick

I read somewhere that he chose the 7x57 because of the reliability of the ammo. It seems he chose reliability over all else including diameter.

24 November 2017, 23:20

eagle27

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I read somewhere that he chose the 7x57 because of the reliability of the ammo. It seems he chose reliability over all else including diameter.

More importantly he had his natives dissect the head of an elephant so he could build a picture in his mind of exactly where the brain was for all angles of shot, likewise he crawled inside a gutted elephant and had his natives carefully push spears through into the chest cavity to work out all the shot angles to reach the heart and lungs. He did shoot a lot of elephant with the little 6.5x54MS cartridge but the ammo he had was not very reliable so stuck to the 7x57.

25 November 2017, 04:04

BenKK

We shot over twenty buffalo with the Rigby .275. It worked fine.

25 November 2017, 04:09

BenKK

But I sure am not an expert, as there’s always so much more to learn. Even this morning I was able to learn more about my favourite animal - the buffalo - and their habits and temperaments.

26 November 2017, 11:44

RyanB

Bell stood on a ladder to get a shorter path to the brain.

And you don’t need to be an internet expert to know the 458 at it’s published velocity will do the job. The ancients used 8-9 different loads featuring 480-500gr bullets at 2000-2150 FPS. Octupling down on failure was a modern invention, the ancients didn’t do it.

26 November 2017, 16:37

p dog shooter

Again bullet placement is king.

One only needs a bullet the well destroy the vitals of the animal you are shooting at.

If the bullet does that caliber doesn't matter.

A tougher, bigger bullet is nice to have when one needs to make a not so perfect shot.

26 November 2017, 17:07

Fury01

Bell stood on a ladder, Stood on termite mound, sat on trackers shoulders; all to see over the screen of plants. In the case of the ladder, elephant grass as I recall.

26 November 2017, 19:00

Saeed

A big problem is the simple fact that many arm chair writers wrote so much rubbish about a larger caliber making up for bad shooting.

Anyone who has hunted enough knows this not true.

26 November 2017, 19:55

jwp475

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
A big problem is the simple fact that many arm chair writers wrote so much rubbish about a larger caliber making up for bad shooting.

Anyone who has hunted enough knows this not true.

26 November 2017, 20:37

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
A big problem is the simple fact that many arm chair writers wrote so much rubbish about a larger caliber making up for bad shooting.

Anyone who has hunted enough knows this not true.

Which is basically what Mike LaGrange says in his book Ballistics in Perspective. After actually using many of the large bores, including the Lott, on thousands of elephants he says the standard 458 Win is his favorite because, in the end one still has to place his shots correctly.

26 November 2017, 22:28

congomike

Never been to Africa, probably never will, but have owned .458's since 1973. I was 16 when I bought my first one. Reading dozens of books/articles on African hunting, I remember one story very well..Harry Selby used a Winchester M70 in .458 for several years. I can't remember the reason, but he did not have is .416 Rigby. I would consider him a true expert in dangerous game hunting/rifles, and the .458 seemed fine for him.

26 November 2017, 23:01

458Win

Harry bought one AFTER he sold his 416.

26 November 2017, 23:12

AnotherAZWriter

quote:
Originally posted by Ray B:
I think the problem results from cartridge appearance - after all, the 458 win Mag is Soooo much smaller than the 416 Rigby and its belted copies, the Weatherby bunch. Anyone can just look at them and tell that they exceed by a large margin anything the Win Mag can do. The answer, of course is in the details of loading a powder compatible to producing the necessary pressure for desired length of time, regardless as to case volume.

The .308 Win suffers the same when compared with the .30-06, but I have killed a pile of deer with my .308 as well as five black bears and four red stags.

26 November 2017, 23:27

carpetman1

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
A big problem is the simple fact that many arm chair writers wrote so much rubbish about a larger caliber making up for bad shooting.

Anyone who has hunted enough knows this not true.

Are you telling me I can't hit a deer just anywhere with a .300 Mag? That can't be, Ive read it on this forum and heard it at many gun counters.

27 November 2017, 00:59

458Win

quote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
A big problem is the simple fact that many arm chair writers wrote so much rubbish about a larger caliber making up for bad shooting.

Anyone who has hunted enough knows this not true.

Are you telling me I can't hit a deer just anywhere with a .300 Mag? That can't be, Ive read it on this forum and heard it at many gun counters.

You can if it's over 1000 yards away and your scope cost more than your rifle !

27 November 2017, 04:22

carpetman1

.458, that's it, Saeed uses a lot of Leupold scopes.

27 November 2017, 05:42

p dog shooter

quote:
your scope cost more than your rifle !

I believe in good optics I have a lot of rifles where the scope new was worth more then the rifle.

27 November 2017, 09:11

congomike

Win458:
Thanks. I couldn't remember why he obtained the .458. I just remember a pic of him shooting it. Do you know the reason he sold his Rigby?

27 November 2017, 09:23

458Win

I think Harry realized he had limited time, his rifle had accrued quite a bit of value, and He had a good offer.

27 November 2017, 17:37

ALF

For many owners of rifles like the 416 Rigby the demise of Kynoch and "Harold Wilson Effect" meant that their only source of ammo was cut off and the rifles became obsolete !

We know this because rifles were popping up at common estate auctions and were being picked up a bargain prices as curiosa as they had no ammo to feed them. I personally bought rifles of in this manner. I clearly recall a time when a single box of 20 416 Rigby rounds cost more than the genuine Rigby that I picked up at a auction.

The 458 Win at the time was the only viable solution to those who still sought rifles of this genre.

28 November 2017, 09:33

Nakihunter

If IIRC Selby's Rigby was sent for rebarrelling (did someone drive a truck over it?)

He got the 458 in the interim and liked it so much that he stuck to it.

28 November 2017, 10:09

Cougarz

quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If IIRC Selby's Rigby was sent for rebarrelling (did someone drive a truck over it?)

He got the 458 in the interim and liked it so much that he stuck to it.

No, he first bought a double rifle which was run over by a truck. He then bought basically the only suitable rifle available at the time which was the .416 Rigby. The .458 came later.

Selby posted the story on this forum a few years back.