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Dave From what I understand, and have been told, 1:18 and 1:20 seems to be the twist rate in most of the 470 Nitros that I know of. I know that Mikes is 1:18.9 or something like that. I really don't think any current manufactured rifles in 470 are using faster twists, but I am not sure of that either. RIP mentioned that in the 470 Capsticks that Winchester did, I think it was RIP, that they had followed Art Alphin with a 1:10 twist rate in the Capsticks. But I think they have the wrong size bore so it does not matter any way. In the A-Square manual it lists a 1:10 twist for the Capsticks and 1:20.98 for the Nitro. Guys with Nitros can confirm the twists, but I bet 1:18 to 1:20 for most of them currently. Like I said, if I was building one today and starting from scratch I would like 1:12 at least, and would not have a problem with 1:10. But that is easy if building a bolt gun, already out there are many more with slower twists, then pick a proper solid meplat. I am quite sure the Barnes Banded would stabilize in slower twists too, but the North Fork with it's 70% meplat of caliber for sure does in all of Mikes test work with the bullet. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael: I recieved the .416 Hawk bullets as well as 13 400 grain .065 .458 bullets from Andy on Saturday. I will get them out to you this week. I have some 500 grain .470 Hawk bullets with a .035 jacket that I shoot in my .470. They are .475 diameter. Would you like me to throw a few in as well so you can try them in your .470 Capstick? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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michael458, If you have a close look at these two bullets, can you find any evidence that they may have impacted base first? The end that impacted the test medium will show some form of abrasion, however fine, that will be absent from the trailing end of the bullet.  | |||
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Dave Don't make sense does it? I can't see how they are, it's not just the barnes banded that shoot fine at 50 yds, it's all bullets I have tested doing load data and accuracy tests years ago. Had I not put the solids to the test box for penetration I still would not have known! I had so many problems in other areas with the guns I never made it to testing the bullets, then the B&Ms came along and I had no use for the 470s from that point on. So they got little attention until I tested in 2007 or so. They still don't get any attention! They are retired. Even if the barrels were jam up great, they would still be retired. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I just got a note back from Blaser USA. They told me the twist rate on the Blaser .470 is 1;21! I am trying the 500 grain banded solids in my gun. I will put them on paper and let you know if they seem to be stabilizing. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Gerard No, they hit nose first. There was no tumbling until 60 inches on the one, and the other did not tumble at all. No tumbling in the test medium along the way. I don't know? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Dave I am sure they are stable during flight no question about that. For some bullets that are short on meplat, that's when the faster twist comes into play, or when a very long mono for caliber is in use, the faster twist rate stabilizes the bullet for "terminal Penetration". In flight is normally not the issue. Great on the Hawks, I will be looking for them. Yeah, throw in a few of the 470s and let's see what happens. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I am in no way calling you a liar! The problem, as I have inferred above, is that there might be an alternative explanation as to what happened. You stated what you thought happened. I am questioning whether that is what really happened not that you are lying about what you thought happened. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I would just like to know what happened and why. That might be tough to find out. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will Hey, that's good enough for me. I just wanted to make sure you and I were on the same page, and that we did not stray from that, or possible misunderstanding on my part. Excellent, now as to knowing how or why? As for how these damn bullets, and it's all of them I have shot in these guns since 2004, Woodleighs, Swifts, FMJs/softs, old Barnes RN, Old Barnes RN blue bullets, everything, even out to 50 yds hits nose first, and not the first sign of engraving on most of them with the exception of Swift A's, and some old Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers! How is that even possible at 50 yds? Terminal penetration should not be stable at all, but the flat meplat of the new Barnes Banded is enough to stabilize itself, it is the only explanation I can come up with. Smaller meplats like the Hornady DGS doe not stabilize itself near to the extent of the Barnes, but is trying. NO RN is stable, Swift A's out penetrate the RN solids. The old Trophy Bonded are fairly stable to a point, but they are getting some light engraving? Still they struggle because of meplat size. So believe me when I tell you, I was as surprised as anyone about the longer stability of the Barnes. I am very sure the North Fork solids would be the same, simply because of the meplat size. If there are other explanations for this, I am willing to listen? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael458, It is way past time to slug that Capstick barrel. That is an important part of the equation. 465H&H | |||
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465HH Oh you are correct, these guns have turned into quite a controversy on their own, which is not the intent, and I never even thought about them becoming such. Didn't really care to boot. Next time Sam is down I am going to let him sort that slugging out, he's the pro at those things! Not that it really matters but there is a lot of questions about these guns and how they can possibly shoot and not be hitting sideways and upside down and inside out at any range. Well, I figured it out, it is magic, the guns still say "WINCHESTER" on them, and as far as I care, that solves the question for me! But, I know all of you might not believe it, so I pulled the files on the guns. Older files are before I had the barrels wacked to 22 and 21 inches, newer files are has less info in them because I have not shot them too much since then. Before that each gun has had more than 300+ rounds through each, maybe a good bit more than that. Never ever, have I seen one tumble or sideways at 50 yds. Never shot them any further than 50? Here are a few sample targets taken out of the files.             I know this is terrible to post such garbage, but there is a question about how these guns can shoot and not even have engraving on the bullets. Well hell, I don't know, I just the shooter, how this can be I can't even begin to tell you, but the files are full of these and not even one is turned sideways and most of the ones in the photos are 50 yds! Only a couple with the Aimpoints are at 25 yds! So I don't have an answer, just reporting what is here! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Brett Oh boy, I am so sorry, I am to blame for much of this, but your thread has been hi-jacked in the worst way! I had to go back to the beginning to even see exactly what it started as! I am not even sure now how I got involved??? That's the turn it took, you have my sincere apology! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well, I don't want to confuse two separate topics. Even I believe now that the flat point solids tend to veer less in media and I think that is why they penetrate so well. They have a one track mind and don't waste their energy going in curves! The other is the apparent flight stability of an apparently non-rotating cylinder, vis a vis, the non-engraved BBS. It makes no sense. So, no, I have no explanation. Maybe someone else can explain it. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Look at the bullet close up. It appears that there are slight land marks on the bullet. Barely discernable scratches if indeed that is what it is. If so also look and you will see that the scratches run straight down the bullet. That means that the bullets had to turn to make a straight scratch on the bullet. Either that or the there is zero twist in the barrel. More puzzle! 465H&H | |||
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465HH Take a look at the Hornady DGS and the Trophy Bonded, same rifle, same day.   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Oversized barrel or undersized bullet ...?? | |||
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Both I think! The Woodleighs I have are all .472 and .4725. I think all the Barnes old and new are .4725 and the DGS is .473 I think. The old trophy bonded are .474 and the Swifts are .474. They both get light engraving. The others you can't even scratch them with your fingernail and find anything, smooth as a babies ass! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Will For sure, we are on the same page with every single statement you made above! It makes no sense and I don't get it either, and I have no explanation either! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I'll probably wish I hadn't stuck my nose in here but you most definitely CAN have enough stability for good accuracy but not enough for stabel penetration. I've done it. I ran into the same problems with 474/475 stuff. The bullet and barrel need to "fit". Soft points have the luxury of being able to bump up to grab the rifling where monos don't. It seems that through fear (doubles), most rifle makers use 475+ barrels (btw, just try to find a 474 barrel, I couldn't) and from the same fear, bullet makers make them well under .474. You can get away such a condition with conventional bullet designs but it is far less likely with monos. I first asked Butch what size barrels he used and he told me .4750 to .4755. I made .4752 and they worked beautifully. Then I got chastized that I was making them the wrong size and they should be .474 because that is what all the others are. Well I did and screwed up a whole batch by doing so. They shot fine out of most barrels (a few wouldn't shoot them) but would tumble on penetration testing. Luckily none ever reached the fields. I went back to 475 and no problems after that. Every once in a while the so called "experts" need to be told to FO  .Anyway, yes you can be accurate and not be stable. | |||
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Nah ...  We make em .4750" +0/-.00005" ... if they work in your rifle great! If not don't use em! | |||
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 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Would not blow by do more damage to the barrels than any perfect match solid with even the most bearing surface?
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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If there was such a thing as a DG video game and we were using flat nose solids in a bolt gun,there would be a misfeed factor incorporated into the game and once in a while,you would get trampled or gored to death. | |||
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Are you including gored and trampled to death by terminal instability of round nose bullets?  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You mean that you could not do a reliablity package on the video rifle that enhanced the feeding of flat point bullets? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Has anyone had issue with feeding the Barnes Banded Solid with its hybrid nose profile? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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YES MOST DEFF. IT WOULD NOT FEED THROUGH MY RIFLE WITHOUT A MAJOR CHANGE THE RIFLE FED HORNADY LIKE GLASS BUT WOULD NOT FEED THE BARNES AT ALL ADJUSTED EVERYTHING AND NOW IT FEEDS BOTH FINE BUT I ONLY USE THE BARNES. THEY WORK GREAT ON BUFF AND HIPPO FROM MY LOTT. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Surely you are not referring to me! I thought you were so damn busy! There are so many issues at hand I can't keep them straight. Now you have introduced at least two more issues on top of the previous two, namely internal stability and external accuracy. Even with the oversize barrel and undersized .474 bullets the bullets were still getting engraved, were they not? Or were the bands just getting sheared off by the rifling? Hmmmm, says I. Was their diameter still .474 after they were shot? And if their accuracy was "good" what was the problem? The internal ballistics? They were veering off course? Does that mean they were not really stable in the first place? How could they be engraved and be any different than .475 bullets? Bouncing around as they went down the barrel? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Boom stick, I shoot them in my AHR 600 OK and have no problems feeding them. I have other issues with them as they are undersized they do not seat tight in my cases, I can spin them by hand when crimped in place which I find annoying, but still shoot them anyway as I have a bunch. Matthew | |||
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The way I see it all solids should be bore riders with multi crimp bands acting like gaskets to prevent blow by that promote bullet spin by the lightest engraving necessary. Seems if you want brass solids that do not get blow by macifej has the title. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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This is so excellent and correct it needs to be repeated again! None of the bullets I tested in my rifles were 100% stable, it's just that the barnes has the meplat to make it stabilize further, as would the North Fork bullet. In my barrels on the Capsticks we have been discussing, I would trust nothing in them in the field! I would not dare take them out for any sort of work! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Damn Will, you are busy I think! Still the same issues, nothing different than what has been discussed. No, not all the bullets get engraved, Woodleigh, Hornady, Barnes ZERO engraving--No, none were 100% stable during Terminal Penetration, Yes, all will shoot in 1 hole at 50 yds, none tumble in the air! Bullets mostly .472 and .4725 to begin with. Some up to .473, only the Swifts and the Trophy Bonded at .474 and very light engraving. All veered off course at some point, even the barnes. The barnes was just able to stabilize for a long distance, which was a surprise in these barrels, and the point of the entire episode is the fact that meplat can do wonderful things if it is big enough, even in sub-standard barrels and twist rates that are not optimum. Pretty simple stuff in the long run. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Shootaway, Shootaway, Shootaway! I have but one question for you, only one, very simple! Can You Spell "W I N C H E S T E R"?  If you learn how to spell the word above all of your feeding issues will disappear as if it was MAGIC!  M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Feeding Issues????? Spell Winchester M70. I have yet to put a solid of any sort in any of my Winchesters and it not feed. This includes several 416 Remingtons, 458 Winchesters, 458 Lotts, even those hound dog 470 Capsticks, all my 50 B&M-458 B&M-416 B&M, 50 Super Shorts, 500 MDMs and some more I can't even remember totaling close to or beyond 100 rifles and zero issues and I know of no solid that will not feed, and you know what I have tested here in the last year. My Winchesters have not been altered to feed various bullets either, they are as they come. Now my Winchesters do not like big flat meplat lead or cast bullets. That is about the only thing that gives me any hang ups. like the Cast Performance wide lead meplats. That's it! Now my Rugers will not feed Barnes Banded at all, won't even get started up. They will feed the Hornady DGS, and that is why Hornady made the meplat and the nose profile what it is, so it would feed in the Rugers that are unmodified as mine are. I don't think I have any other bolt guns than Winchester and Ruger, and the Rugers stay at home. Oh, I still have some trash remingtons laying about, but I don't count them as anything! Can't tell you what they feed or wont' feed???? ANd don't care! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Remember the CZ's in 458 that didn't like Win 510gn 458 ammo. You are right, most Win mod 70's feed anything. Jesus Michael, it must be a bad day, I'm agreeing with you LOL . | |||
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500N I knew if I could get you to hang around long enough I would make something out of you yet! Now look how far you have come just in the short time you have known me!!!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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LOL If you were from somewhere like Texas, that might be OK but South Carolina, Jesus I have stooped to a low level LOL Before I get flamed, I do a lot of business with SC. | |||
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Michael,I test my rifles just like you test your bullets.I have not come to any conclusions yet.I own 4 Winchesters and I find that my Cz does a much better job at ejecting spent cartridges.I also like the idea of a C-ring that blocks the gases should a case head seperate.This week I will load my Cz with a full magazine and see if and how much the bullets are damaged from recoil.I have not had the same results as you did,feeding the new Hornady solids in my Rugers.There were many times when they failed to feed in both my rifles.I also doubt the Winchester barrels will last as long as the Rugers. | |||
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Michael, Have you ever slugged your.470 Capstick barrel? I cannot imagine the bore being so oversized and still be considered a .470, and not a .476NE or, God forbid, a .475 No. 2. Did you ever consider paper-patched bullets in that rifle? George  | |||
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