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I think some of the posters haven't realized that Accurate Reloading was started as a hunting and shooting forum, and geared primarily towards the African hunter. A few of us have actually been here from the beginning, when there was just one forum! In that context, while big bore has never been formally defined as a 375 H&H and larger built on a bolt action rifle, or a double rifle, it has always been an unwritten understanding of the group at large. I also have long seen on all forums folks trying to take their experiences in hunting and shooting and try to apply them to every hunting situation. This often leads to eroneous conclusions. The tradition white-tail hog rounds that are touted by their propents as suitable for all game the world over are both not as capable as their most vocal supporters claim, nor as anemic as claimed by their harshest critics. The same can be said of the traditional African rounds, none of them have enough power to make up for poor shot placement, but equally so, not everyone looses their ability to place shots due to recoil. Just realize it's a big world out there, and there are people who hunt things you never will, and shoot guns you never will. I'd also say that if one wants to, they can hanle alot more recoil than they may believe, but also that severe levels of recoil do take more effort to master than milder recoiling guns. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | ||
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Paul, Well said. True gun lover's should be able to enjoy and appreciate, the whole range of firearms that are available to use today. At the least they should let others enjoy the type of their choice. From flintlock to electric primers, shotguns, rifles, pistols, and even cannons. We have a great range of cartridges to choose from to go with these firearms, 22BB to 700NE. Not everyone wants to use or have intrest in all, and that is their choice, too. There is also no such thing as a single round for every type of shooting or hunting situation. The rabid foaming at the mouth that a single maker or action type or chambering brings out in some here is as bad as those who claim their pet cartridge is the best what ever slayer made. Face the facts, there are those who like the types of weapons and rounds that you would never buy. Your ranting and raving will change nothing. It just raises a big stink, and the only one enjoying it is yourself. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Gosh Paul everytime you post you make more sense. I agree with ya on this, and I too was one of the original members. I got here in '98 and had a member number in the teens, the forum was just a long list of topics and replies. Unfortunately my username got lost in every single software upgrade made. Maybe if you keep talking sense like this it'll rub off. CMercer (formerly known as "Sooner") | |||
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forgive me if i am wrong, i think you are refering to the ongoing mudslinging over the 45-70. i dont think many here would hunt c.b. with the __-__ but when everyone says you cant a bunch will say you can. that will go on forever, i appreciate all the learning and fun i have had here. we all know there are more sensable rounds and i would only hunt with appropriate rounds for game in a safe manner. thanks for sharing your feelings paul 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Well said, Paul! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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It might help if this rule were written. It seems that people only learn this unwritten rule by breaking it and incuring the wrath of the natives. I showed up here about a 1.5 years ago after buying a .458WM, and wondered why people were so terse with 45-70 users. It took a while for me to realize that some big bore rifles are not welcome here. If there is a "rule", it might help everyone if it were posted in the forum title. I believe there is another web site (Big Bores??) that says, up front, that it is for .40 and up and 4000ftlb and up. This simple step might prevent new people from making critical social errors. It also might reduce the number of endless personal attacks that seem to follow nearly any lever action/45-70 post. I don't own a 45-70 nor any other lever action, but I do sometimes hang out at Leverguns.com. While this site is obviously geared toward lever action rifles, all types of guns are discussed. The guys there are currently organizing an African hunt. They don't care what type of rifle you take. All flavors are welcome. All guns are considered interesting. If you decide to visit, I trust that you and your Mauser/Rigby/Holland/Searcy will be treated with respect. The few personal attacks that I have seen there have been quickly deleted by the moderator in order to maintain a high level of discourse that welcomes new people and honors all. If the folks that run AR do not want to be as inclusive, they might consider posting the guidlines up front. I'm not telling anyone how to run their site. It's just a suggestion. Bob. | |||
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I think part of this is big bores assumes "minimum energy levels to hunt dnagerous game" with nominal loads. I think we'll all agree that the 41mag, 44 mag, and 45 colt lever guns aren't "big bores" A good rule of thumb (doesn't cover everything) bullet should weigh at least 300 grains SD should be at or over .300 MV should be ~2100 fps.... net ME should be 4000+ lb-ft If the rounds NOMINAL loading meets all four above, this meets "generic" african dangerous game... There's been many extended threads about the 45/70.. sure, it can be uber hot rodded to nearly meet all 4 of these... then again, if you load a 38 special an additional 200fps, it's no longer a 38 special.. it's a 38+p+.. chamber dimensions are the same, but the loading is VERY different. So, I am totally open to calling the 444 a big bore.. but catagorically a non-african DG round, and so forth... Anyone want to donate their 45 LC trapper levergun to start their true bigbore project? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I don't think this is so. The way I see it is that running down the 45-70 is usually just a bit of fun. Like we have to put up with the 458 wm getting compared to bigger carts. The only time I believe 45-70's are seriously rubished is when advocated for DG. And you have to admit, there would be many better carts avail. And the "open" nature of AR is terrific IMO. It seems self regulating mostly, after a few little misunderstandings.  John L. | |||
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An open forum is good. But I was refering to statements like the following I read recently: "Shitheads aren't welcome here. The forum Members are merely relaying that information. Really, who has been 'jumped on' that didn't deserve it?" I can't see where this type of post helps anyone. It lowers our discourse and offends without producing any positive result. jeffe, Several weeks ago I posted a very narrow 45-70 question. I went to great lengths to avoid the whole DGR issue. But most responders told me that the gun/load was a poor choice for DG. Nearly everyone was polite in that thread, but the forum bias toward African DGR's was obvious. If that is the intent of the forum, shouldn't it be stated plainly so that people don't get blindsided? Once again, it's not my forum and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run it. I'm just making a suggestion. | |||
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.400+ is big bore.  Most people don't seem to realize that .30-06 is a very powerful cartridge.  | |||
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RangerBob, Some of these .45-70 threads and posts (specifically, the ones that claim it is the ne plus ultra of dangerous game rifles) are made to instigate arguments, plain and simple, and the VAST majority are made by people who will never hunt Cape buffalo or elephant (barring their winning a lottery), at least not with a .45-70. It's a long-standing argument, and NEVER fails to turn ugly. George P.S. Only a shithead would be offended by a notice that 'shitheads aren't welcome'. It doesn't apply to anyone else.  | |||
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George P.S. Only a shithead would be offended by a notice that 'shitheads aren't welcome'. It doesn't apply to anyone else.[/QUOTE] OOOOUCH!! But very true.  Sean | |||
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George, I can't see the point in name calling. It convinces no one of anything. The use of schoolyard or jailhouse vocabulary only escalates anger and makes the site less inviting to potential new members. If you don't agree with someone, you can simply say you don't agree based on "xxx". This is just a discussion board. We don't have to get so excited. Threads don't have to turn ugly. People can control their words and choose to be gracious even in the face of rudeness. Or, people can just ignore threads they don't like. Trolls exist on every internet board. Some boards deal with them well. Other boards let them dictate the tone. But, if the members of this board don't want to deal with questions about lever actions or 45-70's, they could simply post that in the forum title and be done with it. FWIW Bob "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." Eric Hoffer | |||
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Frankly, the 45-70 stuff doesn't bother me a bit nor do the newbies with .375's and .458 wins. Everybody started out with these and the debates while heated are for the most part harmless. What I intensely dislike is posters who flat out lie and make up facts to suit their imaginary ego's. I also find the trolls like "Carmelo" to be pathetic POSeurs and it's a pitty we have to suffer their presence. However,For the vast majority, people try to get along and some very good real life friendships and project collaborations have resulted . For example, I am indebted to Fritz 454 who I met here for all of his help with the .600 OK project. There have been many others who I have learned from also. There are some here like ASS-CLOWN who should legally not be allowed to own a firearm of any kind due to their mental state..-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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RangerBob: you are wasting your time. Even a moderator (George S.) can not refrain from the name calling and looking down his nose at other posters who he deems "unworthy,unwealthy,etc." Bring a marginal DG caliber such as a 45-70 into the conversation an it brings out the darker side of some AR members. FTR a 45-70 shoots a .458 bullet in a center fire brass case...just like a .458 Lott, or 458 WM all 3 are big bores | |||
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cats, Once again, you have missed the point. It has nothing to do with 'wealth' or 'worth'( if you have feelings of inadequacy in these areas - get over them; AR has no such requirements, nor is a credit check performed before you can join the site). The point is that so many of the people who go on and on about the .45-70 (and to a lesser extent, the .444 and .450 Marlin rounds) do not have field experience with the game they claim the round is adequate for. This doesn't seem to make a difference to some; apparently, they extrapolate bullet performance on wet newsprint as proof of effectiveness on game. The rub is, they don't hunt Cape buffalo and elephant, so it's all moot, a fantasy they cling to. Adequate does not mean appropriate. In some countries, no .45-70 loading meets the energy criteria for Cape buffalo or elephant. This doesn't seem to make a difference to some. Africa is no place to get sent to prison for a game law violation. George P.S. FTR...the .577-.450 shoots a .458 bullet in a center fire brass case, too, and is a 'big-bore', but while it has surely taken Cape buffalo and elephant, no one but a crackpot would suggest it is a good Cape buffalo or elephant round. | |||
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45-70 forum please... it is neither fish nor fowl here so lets give it its own small corner and if you want to avoid the __-__ or talk about the __-__ you would be welcomed. or maybe make even a cowboy shooting forum...now that is asking a lot. the 45-70 (sorry) is the largest selling big bore in n.a. if my info is correct so the numbers are there or just look at the number of posts on it. the 45-70 is like the palestinians in israel with no home but they are there none the less. call it a safty zone for moderate speed big bore shooting of the 50-110, 45-70, 50 alaskan, 45-90 45-110, 45-3 1/4 50-70 ect ect ect... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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george, tall tale telling is a cowboy art  but i do get your "i can do it so all should be able to" point. people should do the grain of salt thing, kinda like the warnings people give when posting their max loads.577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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George, no one calls it "ne plus ultra of dangerous game". That's all in your imagination. It turns ugly because you like to label any and all .45-70 users as shitheads. Around here, it's politically correct to bash .45-70s whenever possible. I guess you just feel the need to call someone a shithead every so often and someone has to be it... I wonder why you doth protest so loud about them... Makes for entertaining reading though Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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is it just me or did anyone else notice that the picture of a cape buffalo that blackbear posted in the "praise the 45-70" thread top of second page is not only nicer but just as dead the one George S/moderator poses with so proudly with his version of a Big bore | |||
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Brent, At least try to get your facts straight.  The 'shithead' reference had nothing to do with .45-70 posts, threads, or users. It was in reference to someone who came here and told the creator of the .600 Overkill all about its case capacity, then got nasty when corrected. George | |||
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'Nicer' is a subjective term, but both those buff are better than the one you took...oh, wait a minute, that's right, you've never hunted Cape buffalo, let alone taken one with a .45-70. George | |||
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I'm about to an with a measly ole stick n string | |||
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Must be THIS high to be considered a bigbore.
If you miss one you miss them all. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I take it that there was no such thing as a big bore before roughly the turn of the century and certainly not before the advent of smokeless powder. Sorta boring in my opinion, but if that floats your boat, so be it. Why it has to float everyones' boat I don't understand. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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jeffeosso...sounds like a d.g. cart board, that would be more complicated than just giving the 45-70 its own board where all the 45-70, 50-70 50-110, 45-10, 50a.k. 45-3 1/4 people, cowboy shooters and the like would be welcome. just call it the "45-70 and the like" board just remember we are all on the same team well...maybe not ALL... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Good luck with that (really). Are you going to insist that PH leave his gun back at the vehicle, or are you going to let him back you up? George | |||
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the call is his but if he needn't carry one far as I'm concerned...I guess I could let him use my Mauser action Lott or my Mdl700 416 or my good ole 45-70 as I doubt I'll ever use them again...my future hunts will be be Australian swamp buff an kodiaks always with a bow. I do not support the politics of many south African nations and only doing the hunts I have 50% deposits on there,yet. | |||
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I never said it was a rule, rather an understanding. There is a big and very important difference between the two. Some here would seemingly like to make it a rule and keep others out. I personally have never had that attitude, and hopefully never will. I did think it was important to point it out to new members though. To those that want to be exclusive, piss on them. I can firmly state that I've had plenty of discussions with Saeed about the philoshophy of AR and it has always been intended to be an inclusive and censorship free forum for a civil discussion of hunting and shooting sports. The fact that some moderators like to impose their rules and censorship is due to their own inability to ignore threads, post civally in uncival disussions and perhaps simply a desire to show that they're boss. If being a moderator of an internet forum makes some feel like king for a day, then I feel very sorry for you. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Personally I like GeorgeS's buffalo - nice boss, nice width & nice curl. It's a good one in my book! And the thing that makes each trophy special is "the hunt"! | |||
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MHC I like his buffalo too it is a beauty but it is no deader than the one killed with a 45-70 | |||
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The Big Game Rifle Clubs of Australia and the USA have their own classification: Calibre & Classes Group 1 Calibre .330-.400 min bullet wght 165 grns min energy 3000 ft/lbs Group 2 Calibre .400-.485 min bullet wght .400 grns min energy 3900 ft/lbs Group 3 calibre over .485 min bullet wght .525 grns min energy 5300ft/lbs Black powder express calibre .400-.585 Charging animal or Special snap min calibre .330 as applies to group 1 Double rifle any centre fire double rifle Light nitro / hunting class min cal .224 centrefire the rifle to have a sporting configuration. Oldsarge has his proposal for a system of classification here. Thanks, Paul, for a very interesting proposal. As someone who shoots very small rifles - an 8x57JS and a 22 rf but who enjoys reading about big bores shot by experienced hunters and shooters, I shall enjoy reading these discussions.  Mehul Kamdar "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry | |||
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Mehul, When you move out West, I'll have to let you try the Rigby. Who knows? You may even want one! Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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Oldsarge, Thanks for the offer. I shall look forward to it. Best wishes and good hunting! Mehul Kamdar "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry | |||
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