Damn! I luv Ruger No.1's!

From top to bottom:

450 NE 3-1/4"
450/400 NE 3"
400/395 NE
9.3x74R
There will be more!!!

Some chronograph data of factory ammo, 78 degrees F:

Hornady 450/400 NE 3" 400-grain RNSP:
5 shots at 50 yards with iron sights, the factory setting on the Ruger No.1 was right on, out of the box, all shots within 2 inches, after one fouling shot:
2026
2011
2020
2029
2023
average = 2022 fps from the 24" barrel, 1:14" TWIST

Bottom rifle in above pic: 9.3x74R, 22"barrel 1:10" TWIST:
Norma 9.3x74R 285-grain Oryx RNSP, 5 shots:
2302
2279
2271
2287
2290
ave = 2286 fps
Fouling shot bore sighted, with scope, then next three were in one hole with Sightron 3X-9X Illuminated reticle at 50 yards.

400/395 NE, third from top, trial of Varget Extreme, with .396/410-grain LBT LFN GC, 26-7/8" barrel, Hornady brass, GM215M primer:

61.0 grains:
2178
2192
2182
ave = 2184 fps

62.0 grains:
2237
2211
2214
ave = 2221 fps

63.0 grains:
2233
2263
2248
ave = 2248 fps

This is almost identical to velocities with same charge of RL-15, but RL-15 gave better velocity consistency and accuracy in this cartridge.

More to come.

Bravo...

Will Qual cart use those loads for 400 NE factory ammo???

Geez Boomie! There is only one rifle in this chambering in the world. Better wait for prof242 to get his built (second) before we ask Qual-Cart to load ammo for it. Brass for hasndloaders (both of us) makes more sense.

What is interesting is the 400 NE is doing about the same speed with an aditional 125 grains in bullet weight as the 9,3x74

quote:

Hornady 450/400 NE 3" 400-grain RNSP:
5 shots at 50 yards with iron sights, the factory setting on the Ruger No.1 was right on, out of the box, all shots within 2 inches, after one fouling shot:
2026
2011
2020
2029
2023
average = 2022 fps from the 24" barrel, 1:14" TWIST

This is nuts on to what Hornady says is the factory ammo velocity: 2025 fps.

I'd say that is pretty close.

Thanks for the info and effort.

Ripper,

I don't want to be a downer in all of this, but I'm surprised you got 2250 fps in your 400/395, as I didn't expect that much. 2350 fps vis-a-vis the Rigby is just impossible.

There is the obvious capacity limitation of your case, and at somepoint should get those 2250 fps rounds tested for pressure. How do the cases "look"?

The advantage of course would be a skinny, lightweight double using that skinny case. I hate to mention this but is not your case/load very similar to a hot loaded 400 Purdey?

Anyway, it looks like things are progressing well. Congrats.

RIP,
Glad you discovered what we double shooters have known about RL-15. It will give you very consistant velocities! It is position sensitive, that is why we use Dacron Filler or foam in our big Nitro Cases.

Thanks for the report.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What is interesting is the 400 NE is doing about the same speed with an aditional 125 grains in bullet weight as the 9,3x74

Yes, but the barrel is 5 inches longer on the 400/395NE than on the 9.3x74R (22"). That adds about 100 fps.

Thanks for noticing.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Ripper,

I don't want to be a downer in all of this, but I'm surprised you got 2250 fps in your 400/395, as I didn't expect that much. 2350 fps vis-a-vis the Rigby is just impossible.

To WILL: I did get over 2300 fps and no pressure signs with the Hornady brass and the 410-grain LBT, with 65 grains of RL-15 giving 2309 fps. I know that has got to be over 50Kpsi, and the lead bullets will work better on game at lower velocity, so I am backing down to 62 grains of RL-15, that gave 2217 fps in the 27" barrel, should be equivalent to 2150 fps in a 24" barrel. That is right at 99-100% net case capacity used, depending on seating depth: No compression and no filler needed.


There is the obvious capacity limitation of your case, and at somepoint should get those 2250 fps rounds tested for pressure. How do the cases "look"?

To Will: The cases look perfect after fire forming. I'll post a picture later.

The advantage of course would be a skinny, lightweight double using that skinny case. I hate to mention this but is not your case/load very similar to a hot loaded 400 Purdey?

To Will: Yes, are you just catching on to the bastardization of the .395-caliber "400 Nitro For Black Powder 3-Inch" by Purdey?

Instead of using the original bullet caliber they chose .405" bullet diameter and same puny 230-grain weight and 2050 fps, never completeing the jump from NFBP (Light Nitro) to Full Nitro Express, with the Righteous .395.

The True 400 Nitro Express never existed until now.

Anyway, it looks like things are progressing well. Congrats.

Thank you Sir!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
RIP,
Glad you discovered what we double shooters have known about RL-15. It will give you very consistant velocities! It is position sensitive, that is why we use Dacron Filler or foam in our big Nitro Cases.

Thanks for the report.

RL-15

Will,hard cast bullets in handguns are good for 100 fps more velocity at the same pressure as a jacketed. I assume the same would be true in a rifle but, I don't know that for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Will,hard cast bullets in handguns are good for 100 fps more velocity at the same pressure as a jacketed. I assume the same would be true in a rifle but, I don't know that for sure.

jwp475,
You say my cast bullets are possibly 100 fps faster than .395/410-grain bonded cup and core?
Lubed, gas-checked, and .396 in a .395 groove, and malleable alloy that will make a tighter seal and less friction possibly?

Geez! I will have to move a bunch of junk out of the garage and make room for The Corbin Bullet Werkes!!!

For now it is on to 310 to 330 grain S&H bullets.

Still wondering if Gerard and Gina of GSC will deliver the 340-grain bullets I paid for ...

quote:

That is right at 99-100% net case capacity used, depending on seating depth: No compression and no filler needed.

If I extrapolate my 9.3x74R velocities and bullet weights I would get about 1950 fps with a 410 gr. jacketed bullet. But ALL of those loads are 56 - 58 grs. of RL-15 for bullets between 270 and 320 grs.

So apparently if you can get enough RL-15 in the case, the sky is the limit! (and maybe the pressure).

RL-15: The Wonder Powder.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Will,hard cast bullets in handguns are good for 100 fps more velocity at the same pressure as a jacketed. I assume the same would be true in a rifle but, I don't know that for sure.

jwp475,
You say my cast bullets are possibly 100 fps faster than .395/410-grain bonded cup and core?
Lubed, gas-checked, and .396 in a .395 groove, and malleable alloy that will make a tighter seal and less friction possibly?

Geez! I will have to move a bunch of junk out of the garage and make room for The Corbin Bullet Werkes!!!

For now it is on to 310 to 330 grain S&H bullets.

Still wondering if Gerard and Gina of GSC will deliver the 340-grain bullets I paid for ...

I have seen pressure data that proves that to be the case in revolvers but, I am only speculating that it will work the same in a rifle. Seems logical to me that it would.

Flight characteristics and terminal performance are more critical than deviations in velocity in rifle bullets wouldn't you say??

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Flight characteristics and terminal performance are more critical than deviations in velocity in rifle bullets wouldn't you say??

Well yes I would but cast bullets can fly very well and have excellent terminal performance.


Case in point:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...t/all/gonew/1#UNREAD


From the thread;

"One last thing. Much has been written about the long range accuracy of the big Sharps. I told Africa Bushveld Safaris that I wanted a long shot, longer than the 325 yard springbok I took last year doing a DVD. They agreed to allow me such a shooting opportunity to document the long range capability of the Sharps and paper patched bullets driven by black powder.

Andries put me on a herd of springbok with the sun at my back and picked out a mature ram. He was running my Leica CRF 1200 rangefinder and called the distance at 525 laser measured yards. Using barrel buckhorn sights and paper patched bullets pushed by 106 grains of Goex 2f Express black powder, I killed the springbok with a center hit to the body with the Shiloh Sharps on the first shot. The 511 grain lead bullet went straight through, throwing up dirt on the other side of the animal. On DVD, Marius Van Deventer says that it is the longest shot they have ever allowed anyone to take, and the farthest any animal has been taken in the 11 years that Africa Bushveld Safaris has been in business.

I came home a happy man."

My standard load for an English rifle in 450-400 is 2135 FPS, in my Searcy it is 2250 FPS. I can get these velocities with either RL-15, IMR-4831, or IMR-4350. For what its worth I seem to get less felt recoil with RL-15..I use a filler in the 3.25 version of 5 grs. of Dacron or a commercial filler billet. In the 3 inch version I have never seen the need for a filler.

Of course the 450/400NE3" could be loaded up to greater than Classic .416 Rigby energy in a Ruger No.1 ...

About the jacketed versus cast bullet differences pointed out by jwp475:

The jacketed/cup&core bullet will be a wee bit longer and have greater bearing surface than the same weight cast lead bullet. That would explain the differences ...

But let us leap right past the cup&core to fully modernize The True 400 NE: Monometal bullets of right about .300 SD in brass and copper, at 2400 to 2500 fps at 50,000 psi.

330-grainers of .395 caliber have SD of 0.302.
At 2400 fps, KE is 4215 ft-lbs.
At 2505 fps, KE is 4605 ft-lbs.
Pressures will be 50,000 psi or less.

From a 1:12" TWIST this will be the first truly modern Nitro Express, and adequate in every way for hunting any game, no sweat.

I can taste the Hickory Grilled Bison Steaks already!!

Macifej,
Please make some .395/330-grain copper hollowpoints.

No doubt the quality of the bullets you produce is as good as it gets.

Coming up shortly.........

RIP,
Do you want me to send you some of the GSC bullets I received? You could then test them against some of Macifej's bullets (no offense Maci, and it might show how good yours are) and gather some new info, possibly using your iron water buffalo. Let me know and the bullets will be on their way.
Max

Max,
I am not embarking on testing any more GSC bullets until they prove they can deliver to me. I'll give them until Friday to at least respond by email, to Gina and Gerard.

I started this thing and now they are playing games, maybe because I got S&H to make some .395 bullets? No competition allowed? Not the American way.

Anyway, here are some I do have adequate supplies of and will be testing next, with hopes of having enough left to go hunting with:




And for Will, the primers. Hard to get a decent picture with my camera but the primers are not even completely flattened and the rounded indentation of the firing pin has absolutely no cratering nor extrusion present, very "mild" looking, even with 410-grain cast lead at over 2300 fps from my 27" barrel:



The .395/330-grain S&H brass FN is 1.375" long, just a tad shorter than the .396/410-grain LBTLFNGC at 1.382". The .395/310-grain SHark Velopex is 1.500" long, elk killer for Max. It will work anywhere from 1600 to 2600 fps impact velocity, and beyond!

330-grainers ought to go 2500 fps with same mild pressures.

We are looking at 24" velocities like this for The True 400 Nitro Express, Modernized (up to 50K psi and 12" TWIST):

410-grain @ 2150 fps
330-grain @ 2425 fps

Is that brass in photos 1 & 2 already fireformed or is it loading up that clean??

Jay,
Those are fireformed, and full-length sized in the CH4D dies. The brass is from the same lot as the ones with the dented primers in pic#3 above.

Just made the dummies with your bullets to check for chamber/throat fit before loading up a bunch of your bullets: first for velocity and accuracy, then for the Iron Water-Board Buffalo: New acronym is "IWBB."

Calling it the "IWB" was too confusing with "International Wound Ballistics."

Yep, I got the IWBB to interrogate those bullets with.

COL is about 3.750" with both the LBT and the S&H Brass FN. 3.770" with the SHark Velopex.

I am game to try your copper bullets in the IWBB. I have enough "interrogation experience" with it to get the desired information. Water-Boarding your bullets will be handled in the most professional manner.

The next iteration of .395" Zinger is in the works. I hope you've been burning the late night schmaltz coming up with a way to "Water Board" some .666" x 1000 grain FN's.....

Maybe a 10 foot block of retreads???

Sir, for the .666 Teufel The IWBB is sufficient. Gonna Water-Board The Devil!!!

The IWBB has been refined over the years of bullet interrogation experience.

It now consists of 10 compartments, each 10" thick/deep. And a terminal 4" compartment that can be loaded with steel or whatever to stop the impossible.

Each 10" compartment can be loaded with an 8" thick plastic water container, and 1, 2, or 3 plywood boards each 1/2" thick.

With 1.5"-thick plywood, 8"-thick water bucket, and 1/2" of air per compartment, your .666/1000-grain FN will be stopped!

I would like to see if it can get to the end of the IWBB with only 2 boards per compartment. That would be a score of 10.

Andre' of Denmark scored a 5 with his 500 Jeffery Cup Point, almost as good as an FN, but so far a 7 is the best I have seen with North Fork FP's and GSC FN's in calibers like 404 Jeffery, .375 H&H, and 470 NE, and 470 Mbogo.

If you say so....

I cannot be held responsible for the complete vaporization of the IWBB......

The only possible damage would be from a tumbling and veering roundnose solid. Even Der Teufel will just be a plash through the perforated stainless steel frame of the IWBB. It is modular and easily repairable with nuts and bolts and predrilled stainless steel square-tube and predrilled angle iron cut by my hacksaw.

It will be enteresting to see how the SHark Velopex behaves. I hope it flips fast when the brass petals blow off and then procedes straight on as a TCFN penetrator, base first.
We shall see.

I now have a piece of property "in the country" where I can leave the IWBB free-range full time. Always ready for interrogations.

Ready to rock and roll: "I Am IronMan" becomes "I Am IronWaterBoard Buffalo." (heavy metal here)

quote:

I now have a piece of property "in the country" where I can leave the IWBB free-range full time. Always ready for interogations.

Sounds like a perfect place for the fall Big Bore Bubba SHoot!!

Sorry. Black Ops. Can't reveal the IronWaterBoardBuffalo pasture location.

Here is the tail end of the latest IWBB configuration: It lets off pressure a whole lot better than 2x4 wood construction, which would certainly be turned into toothpicks by Der Teufel.

The impact end is much more heavily constructed, with 1.5" square-tube instead of the 1" square tube at the tail end. Note the diagonal and axial side-bracing in the impact section, diagonal bracing only in the middle section, and no side-bracing in the low-pressure tail end. The middle section is 1.25" square-tube. Altogether 8.5 feet long when you telescope 3 of the 3-foot-long stainless steel square-tubes togeher by 3" overlap at each joint, and bolt them together.

Solid board entry is for solid testing. If I test softs, the entry board is windowed. Actually water alone is all that is required for softpoint testing, and that can be done with the IWBB by simply removing all the boards.
Or use 5-gallon water buckets laid end-to-end.

That's some serious test rig there RIP!!

Makes me want to move to the country so I kin make me sum stuff out back!!

Hi RIP,
Is your stainless 450 nitro express simply a rechambered 458 lott? Looks real neat..what scope you got mounted on that?

fordnutter,
Yep, you got it, simply a .458 Lott rechambered, re-ejectored, and it has a brass crossbolt hidden in the buttstock, by Rusty McGee. The only tricky part was finding a place to put any kind of crossbolt behind the tang.

The scope is a Leupold Scout Scope, 2X. Not ideal for DG but I have used a 2.75X Burris Scout Scope on a .416 Rigby Ruger No.1 to flatten deer at 342 yards.

A Leupold 2.5X standard eye-relief rifle scope would be better, and I do have one in Matte Black for this.

The Scout scope just looks cool and is good enough for "deliberate shooting," like deer at 342 yards.

Got to get the laser, flashlight, and red dot all hung on that thing somehow ...

Macifej,
If you will notice, the last steel sawhorse at the tail end has one pair of yellow legs and one pair of black legs. It was salvaged from a couple of damaged sawhorses that suffered from roundnose solids, Woodleigh FMJ and Old Barnes Monolithic.

Those roundnose solids just won't stay straight in the IWBB. Only FN SOLIDS allowed. A good soft will stop sooner and not go as wildy astray as the roundnose solids, which are apt to exit the IWBB amidships and take out a sawhorse.

Gina responded. GSC supposed to be on the way.
Maybe I shall get to WaterBoard those too. "Hold thumbs" ...

Those .395" FN's certainly look apropos in your Nouveaux-Nitro!!

It should be an interesting contest of FN's, including the cast lead one, to see if it shatters or flattens or comes close to the brass and copper FN's, and to see if there is a contest between S&H Brass and GSC Copper.

Gina suggested we "hold thumbs" ... Is that RSA slang for "cross fingers" or "asking the butcher to keep his thumb off the meat scale" or what?

Here is the thumb I am holding:

Shipping out of S.A. must be a Pain....

Hopefully they'll show up soon and you can fine tune all your loads.

The cast bullets will not stand up well in the IWBB at over 2000 FPS
The 525 Grain WLFN fired from my 50 Alasken Revolver flattens and widens the meplat at 1570 FPS when fired into wet news print and penetrates exactly the same as my 500 Linebaugh does at nearly 500 FPS slower with the same.
A mono metal solid will out pentrate the hard cast by a significant margin.
The contest will be between the GS Custom Flat Point and the Flat Point made by Macifej. My money is on Macifej's bullet because I believe that his bullet is harder than the GS Custom all Copper Bullet