The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores FN Mauser 500 Bateleur, and Ruger No. 1 400 BateleurGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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8 pounds 11 ounces as pictured. It will be a 10-pounder field ready. I would not want it any heavier. 24" barrel, 1:12" twist. Bridget B. Mauser is no safe queen. OK, maybe she is a redneck girl.  Gunsmith Rusty McGee and I do hail from Kentucky.          500 Jeffery rim is dwarfed by 500 Bateleur rim, the latter made from Captech .338 Lapua Magnum blank basic cylindrical. One "500 Jeffery dummy" cartridge and two "500 Bateleur non-dummy" cartridges ready for first fire-forming to sharpen the shoulder (double-entendre intended):  Unlike its namesake, the 500 Bateleur cartridge has no small tail.   | ||
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RIP what is the action - I thought I read FN made in Belgium. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I think your forward rifle sling eye is WISELY placed. Is there any chance that during recoil your trigger finger could strike the magazine release, and thereby dump your ammo unintentionally? (I think Alphin's Hannibal rifle uses an interesting release.) You have a bent bolt handle. Please say why that is preferred over a straight one, thanks! I believe this round headspaces on it's shoulder; am I correct? Is it using .500" or .510" diameter bullets? What is your intended quarry? It looks like it can handle any game and/or conditions. A smart rifle for a fellow to have!!!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Is that a Bell & Carlson stock or a McMillan? Also, which safety is that? Looks nice. Dave | |||
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Nice gun, how does Bateleur compare with AR? NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Nakihunter, That action is an FN Mauser that was once a Herter's factory 30-06. "Parts is parts." The action receiver, bolt stop, and the bolt are original, though they have been refinished. All the rest is new parts. "Parts is parts."  | |||
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It is 0.050" longer in length, but has better perfected case body taper, shoulder, neck and throat dimensions, of course. As stated above, it was simple to make by necking up my .500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved, and lengthing that case by 0.043". The parent cartridge is AKA the 12.7x68 Magnum, the 49-Bore of 2010, the "49-10" which ain't your Papa's 30-06. Thus, the 500 Bateleur is the "50-Bore of 2012" AKA "50-12." I have another 500 Bateleur that is a Weatherby Mark V with longer and heavier barrel. She is called Bertha. Bertha B. Weatherby. Bertha weighs 10 pounds 4 ounces (10.25 lbs) without scope, rings or muzzle brake pictured below. She is being used for load development and varminting. Also by Rusty McGee:     Bridget's No.6 sporter contour barrel was bobbed to 24", Bertha's Medium Target contour barrel was bobbed to 25.5". This happened at "Hilltop Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Bertha's muzzle brake is "homemade" and adds about 2.5" to overall 28" length. Bridget has a Vais Brake but that does not compliment her more sporty look.  Bertha's brake:  Bridget's brake:   | |||
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For the curious, to save searching:  Crude cartridge drawing of cartridge maximums on left and chamber minimums on right, below:  | |||
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Thanks RIP, for the extra pictures, drawings and info!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Here is the first shot fired in the FN Mauser since it was finished. Fired by me yesterday, after dark, standing out in the "cold Kentucky rain" in Rusty's backyard:    Above are a fired case and a loaded cartridge like the one fired. This is a starting load of 88.0 grains of H322 with F-215 primer and 535-grain brass FN by S&H. COL of loaded cartridge is 3.400" exactly. Brass length before firing was 2.695". Brass length after firing was 2.694". Shortened by 0.001" on initial blowing out of the neck and shoulder of new brass.  Loaded neck diameter before firing: 0.533" (brass maximum spec 0.536") Empty neck diameter after firing: 0.538" (chamber minimum spec 0.539") New brass shoulder diameter before firing: 0.573" (brass maximum spec is 0.571", but actual brass makes for a positively functional fit) Once-fired brass shoulder diameter: 0.574" (chamber minimum diameter spec is 0.575") QuickLOAD says velocity is supposed to be 2355 fps and pressure is 55,882 psi. As soon as the rain, snow, and muzzleloader deer season quit, I will chronograph. The load was a fire-forming load of new brass. It does 500 Jeffery classic ballistics with starting load. CIP maximum average chamber pressure for the 500 Jeffery is 3300 bar = 47,850 psi. The 500 Bateleur wildcat can do 68,000 psi with the Captech Lapua brass. But, I will keep it down to 63,000 psi and the brass will last a long time. The 500 Jeffery will eat dust. | |||
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Other than bullet diameter, one would either need calipers or, in some cases to read head stamp... Ron's done a fine job with his .500 .... We trust. Somewhat interesting that the AccRel , active on 4 continents and actually a .510, was built as an homage and reimagining of the 500 Jeffe. I always remember that I had been standing on the shoulders of the Giants that went before me. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Yes, the 500 Accurate Reloading of Jeff Smith, Gunsmith and Wildcatter, is a far better cartridge than the 500 Jeffery. Starting loads for both can begin with Classic 500 Jeffery external and terminal ballistics; and less recoil for both than for the 500 Jeffery, due to less powder burned than required in the 500 Jeffery. The only real difference would be the two different throat versions on the 500 AR, the long-throated original reamer and the short-throated second version that 416Tanzan and others came up with secondary to the infamous discussions here for which I was banned for 2 weeks. The second version 500 AR is known as the 500 Accurate Reloading Nyati, named by 416Tanzan. If Captech .338 Lapua Magnum basic cylindrical brass is used to form the 500 AR Nyati brass, then load data for it is closely interchangeable with 500 Bateleur load data. 416Tanzan and I can swap load data here. However, ammo is not physically interchangeable between the rifle chambers of the 500 AR Nyati and the 500 Bateleur: It would be great if someone had the reamer drawing for the the 500 AR Nyati to post here for comparison to the 500 Bateleur.  | |||
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This old discussion from an open thread is based on cartridge brass specifications. A discussion based on reamer specifications would be more accurate.
416 Tanzan, Neither one will fire in the other, unless there is some unpleasant and undesirable crush fit and hard chambering possible, possibly dangerous, definitely not functional. The 500 AccRel Nyati has a shoulder diameter of 0.577" at 2.140" from head face/base. The 500 Bateleur has a shoulder diameter of .571" at 2.161" from head face/base. The 500 Bateleur has greater case taper and the 500 AccRel Nyati will not chamber in the 500 Bateleur. Also, as you state, the 0.050" greater length of the 500 Bateleur (2.700" max brass) will not fit into the chamber of the 500 AccRel Nyati (2.650" max brass). Also the headspace distance of the 500 Bateleur is 0.021" greater than that of the 500 AccRel Nyati. The 500 Bateleur has more than one reason why it will not fit into the 500 AccRel Nyati chamber. But the 500 Bateleur can easily be loaded into the 3.42" box length of the standard action Ruger Hawkeye. 500 Bateleur reference dummies, these measured with brass at minimum length of 2.690":  Camera lens bends the cartridges on top and bottom of the picture above. Spherical abberation? The 500 Bateleur does not use banana-shaped cartridges.  This is a throat Go-Gage of sorts for the 500 Bateleur: The 750-grain A-Max from Hornady, with COL of 4.475", it will chamber in the 500 Bateleur, with its throat so like the 500 AR Nyati:  Note also how perfectly it fits the neck, full bearing throughout neck, for excellent neck tension, only the boat tail intrudes into the powder space. I'd say that is about as long and heavy a beak as this bird needs, for successful 1000-yard plinking. | |||
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I sure prefer the concept of standard length big/dangerous game rounds. I have more than my share of magnum length rifles (ZKK602s, CZ550s, Enfields, Brevexes) but I much prefer standard length Mauser 98s. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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Forrest, Yes, an M98 is neat! Rusty did a great job of mating the Duane Wiebe bottom metal to the standard 30-06-length FN Mauser. This requires the strong feature of opening the action to the rear. Minimal off the front/feed ramp area of the action, the locking lug recess area. Rusty reshaped the ramp and feed rails. He also had to widen the action opening underside to get the top of the Wiebe box to mate with the undersde of the action. The B&C Medalist stock also had to have its aluminum magazine well machined out for clearance to let the Wiebe box seat. I am very happy with the job. It feeds roundnose bullets fine, and spitzers of course. But, the S&H brass FNs have a meplat greater than 70%. These would cause Duane Wiebe, Dennis Olson, D'Arcy Echols, or any Gunsmith to have a heart attack if they attempted the feed job. They will not even clear the magazine well edge to even start up the feed ramp when loaded in the box. I will single load those in my Ruger No. 1, or single load in this FN Mauser like a shell-holder action. I will look for a smaller meplat FN solid to check feeding on. Here is an interesting QuickLOAD table of possible loads for the SABOT LOAD of 189 grains total, with 150-grain .308/150-gr Nosler Ballistic Tip in a 39-grain plastic sabot. Barrel length here is 25.5" for the Weatherby Mark V. But the powders are so fast, that those that burn 100% will probably give near same velocity in the 24" FN Mauser. The less efficient powders will make a nice fireball, even in daylight. COAL is kept to 3.400" which will work even from a Ruger Hawkeye box of 3.420" The Wiebe box is 3.501", internal length, and holds 3 down in the box. If accurate enough, this sabot load makes the 500 Bateleur adequate for varmints also, thus "For Buffalo AND Baboons." It is certainly adequate for buffalo and elephant with the right bullet, from a 30-06-length Mauser action with more whomp than the classic 500 Jeffery ballistics. Just beats the 500 Jeffery all to heck.  *************************************************************************************************************** From QuickLOAD: *************************************************************************************************************** Cartridge : 500 Bateleur Bullet : .510, 189gr Total Weight Saboted Payload (.308/150gr Nosler BT) Useable Case Capaci: 87.646 grain H2O = 5.691 cm³ Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.400 inch = 86.36 mm Barrel Length : 25.5 inch = 647.7 mm Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 % These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ! 27 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped. Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Winchester 296/ 100.0 % Filling/ 86.8 grains/ 5.62 grams/ 3725 MV fps/ 97.9 % Propellant Burnt/ 54663 P max psi/ 4803 P muzz psi/ 0.843 B_time ms/ ! Near Maximum ! ?Caution because pressure is calculated to be within 10,000 psi of my selected P max? SHOULD MAKE A NICE FIREBALL IN THE 24" MAUSER! Alliant 2400 98.3 75.4 4.88 3707 100.0 63000 3987 0.803 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! (At P max of 63,000 psi.) Ramshot Enforcer 96.6 79.8 5.17 3683 100.0 63000 3890 0.810 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Lovex-D0631 98.7 83.2 5.39 3678 98.7 63000 4229 0.803 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Accurate 4100 99.3 82.8 5.37 3660 100.0 63000 3943 0.811 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Hodgdon Lil'Gun/ 100.0 % Filling/ 84.0 grains/ 5.44 grams/ 3657 MV fps/ 100.0 % Propellant Burnt/ 51976 P max psi/ 4253 P muzz psi/ 0.854 B_Time ms (No warnings on this one.) Norma R123 94.4 76.3 4.94 3653 100.0 63000 3681 0.826 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Hodgdon H110 100.0 86.7 5.62 3623 99.2 53616 4416 0.858 ! Near Maximum ! Accurate No.9 86.2 74.6 4.83 3610 100.0 63000 3650 0.811 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! PB Clermont PCL 512 100.0 77.3 5.01 3592 100.0 56884 3848 0.841 ! Near Maximum ! Alliant POWER PISTOL 87.6 56.2 3.64 3528 100.0 63000 3391 0.813 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Lovex-S0401 100.0 72.0 4.67 3514 100.0 55060 3722 0.849 ! Near Maximum ! Rottweil R910 100.0 74.6 4.84 3510 100.0 46264 3875 0.883 Alliant BLUE DOT 100.0 65.8 4.26 3502 100.0 56697 3498 0.841 ! Near Maximum ! Lovex-D0051 87.3 52.1 3.38 3497 100.0 63000 3295 0.813 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Vihtavuori 3N38 98.5 64.9 4.20 3471 100.0 63000 3130 0.824 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Vihtavuori N105 100.0 63.2 4.10 3442 100.0 59380 3093 0.844 ! Near Maximum ! Rottweil P806 89.4 72.2 4.68 3401 100.0 63000 3162 0.852 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE! Nitrochemie A/S 0200 100.0 80.8 5.24 3377 94.8 42723 4141 0.936 Accurate 5744 100.0 %// 75.5 grains// 4.89// 3351 fps// 90.2// 44213 psi// 4142// 0.921 . . . Hodgdon H4198 100.0 %// 75.9 grains// 4.92// 2797 fps// 73.8// 27318 psi// 3178// 1.140 Fantastic fireball here. Pretty slow MV too, so I will stop here. . . . | |||
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If I can make this work accurately with the sabots, could substitute different classes of .308 bullets for plains game. Will be truly all-around, one rifle battery. 1X scope for elephant hunting. 1-4X scope for buffalo. 2.5-8X scope for plains game (or one scope to make do all) 4-16X scope for varmints. No iron sights, nor any hardware of any kind to clutter the barrel. Steel Weaver bases 8x40-ed plus JB Welded to action. No loading port interference. A front sight, gold patridge blade on a barrel-banded ramp, and a peep-sight on the rear scope base, is the only possible barrel clutter I might consider, for this most functional of rifles. Arguably, on balance of all possible damage scenarios, our modern scopes and mounts are more rugged than any open iron sights. Scopes are certainly faster and more accurate, except for the Luddite whose nostalgia interferes with reality testing. But if for mere nostalgic aesthetics, then whatever turns the crank is applauded,  sort of like the penny in a penny loafer, "How cute.".  | |||
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What about a proper safety like on a Brno ZKK? You know, cocking a hammer gun? Sum buddy who know. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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That's the spirit, Forrest!  | |||
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 A range of posibilities for 150-grain .308 Bullets: 150-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip is longer than an old 150-grain Barnes X Boat tail, but seating depths of the sabot can be varied. Two types of 500 Bateleur brass are shown above. The cartridge with 3.355" COAL is Jamison basic necked down, annealed, trimmed, and fire-formed, then cleaned up with #0000 finest steel wool. The cartridge with the 3.620" COAL is Hornady .338 Lapua Magnum brass that has been fire-formed in the 12.7x68 Magnum, then necked up to .510. The 500 Bateleur may also be called the 12.95x68.58mm Magnum or more simply, the 12.9x69 Magnum. All I have to do is load the short COAL full of Accurate 5744 powder and see how it shoots, work up to Hodgdon Lil'Gun from there. | |||
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I have taught myself how to firmly seat the .308 bullets in the .510 sabots. Different projectile lengths now, shorter is better:  | |||
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 Revised QuickLOADs with proper seating depth on the sabot load, 25.5" barrel, but all will fit in the Mauser with 24" barrel, both rifles have the same throat. This is just pie in the sky until chronographed: 189-grain Projectile (150-grain/.308-cal Nosler Ballistic Tip + 39-grain/.510-cal Sabot): 3753 fps MV ... Hodgdon Lil'Gun: 88.6 grains ... 56,172 psi ... 4691 ft.lbs KE for bullet after sabot shed ... 3.400" COAL 450-grain GSC HV: 2667 fps MV ... Hodgdon H322: 99.0 grains ... 59,768 psi ... 7107 ft.lbs KE ... 3.445" COAL 535-grain S&H FN (won't feed but it will shoot): 2428 fps MV ... Hodgdon H322: 91.0 grains ... 62,784 psi ... 7006 ft.lbs KE ... 3.400" COAL 570-grain Hornady DGX: 2433 fps MV ... Alliant RL-17: 108.0 grains ... 60,324 psi ... 7493 ft.lbs KE ... 3.442" COAL ... KE RUNNERUP 600-grain Barnes Original RNSP: 2314 fps MV ... Hodgdon H4895: 99.0 grains ... 62,200 psi ... 7135 ft.lbs KE ... 3.455" COAL 2367 fps MV ... Alliant RL-17: 104.2 grains ... 62,934 psi ... 7462 ft.lbs KE ... 3.455" COAL ... KE RUNNERUP-RUNNERUP (24" Barrel for comparison to 25.5" above) 2341 fps MV ... Alliant RL-17: 104.2 grains ... 62,934 psi ... 7303 ft.lbs KE ... 3.455" COAL ... (24" Barrel lost only 26 fps for 1.5" chop) 647-grain Barnes X-BT (adjust for TSX): 2296 fps MV ... Alliant RL-17: 103.9 grains ... 62,960 psi ... 7570 ft.lbs KE ... 4.025" COAL ... KE CHAMP 750-grain Hornady A-Max: 2063 fps MV ... Alliant RL-17: 91.0 grains ... 62,986 psi ... 7087 ft.lbs KE ... 4.475" COAL I have used Alliant Reloder 17 in the 12 Gauge From Hell. It has interesting properties, igniting well in large charges with shotgun primer alone. Ed Hubel is the genius behing that powder in the 12GaFH, where I heard about it. It is looking like an excellent powder for the 500 Bateleur. It is dense, high weight per volume for a medium rate burn with excellent ease of ignition: Makes a lot of hot gas efficiently from a small package. How about temperature sensitivity? Gotta be OK if the rest is this good. Looking for an 8# jug of RL-17 now ... | |||
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Expect actual velocities to be a bout 50 fps slower (and hopefully pressures likewise proportionally lower, but unknowable by me) ... if overall past experience is a guide for QuickLOAD predictions. Baboons are still on license ...  | |||
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500 Van Horn Express loads from 1991 Guns Annual may serve as starting loads for the 500 Bateleur or 500 AR:  Ken Howell drawing of 500 Van Horn Express:  | |||
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For those fearing to show any interest in or curiosity about the 500 Bat on an open thread, I have lifted my comments below from my PMs. Being limited to only .700" bullet protrusion plus an extra .050" for functionality through the box is no fun. The Barnes TSX .510/570-grainer is 0.750" at minimum nose projection when loaded. That would be tight in the Wiebe box with 2.750" brass length. 500 AR 2.650" brass + 0.750" TSX nose = 3.400" COAL: Fits in a 2-down 3.420"-long Ruger Hawkeye box 500 Bateleur 2.700" + 0.750" TSX nose = 3.450" COAL: Plenty of room in a 3-down 3.501"-long Wiebe box. The Wiebe box is meant for shoe-horning 3-down 500 Jeffery with 2.756" max brass length, and 0.700" noses on the bullets. No good with the .750"-long TSX nose: 2.756" + 0.750" TSX nose = 3.506" COAL: Won't fit at 500-Jeffery max brass length. Trim that brass to 2.750" and you only have 0.001" of box length to spare. You are more limited on bullet selection with the 500 Jeffery, which also has a leade-only, tight throat with zero parallel-sided free-bore. No thanks again to the 500 Jeffery. 500 Bateleur superiority. | |||
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Brass: This applies to both 500 AR and 500 Bat. Basic cylindrical is surely a lot easier. Captech might make some more in the next year or so, whenever they do another big run of .338 Lapua Magnum. They will sell the blank basic cylindrical case to the public, and it is 2.753" long or thereabouts. Lapua-made, new, civilian-brass, .338 Lapua fire-forms well. Hornady also makes excellent .338 Lapua Magnum brass at reasonable price, and they fire-form well too. I have just used more Lapua than Hornady. They both end up a little short for 2.7" 500 Bateleur, OK for the 12.7x68 Magnum, parent of the 500 Bat. Norma used to make blank basic cylindrical .416 Rigby brass too. That would do very well. 450 Dakota has a slightly different (smaller) head size by a few thou, if it is in spec. I would not use it. Any .416 Rigby or .338 Lapua Magnum basic cylindrical brass that is 2.7" to 2.75" long to start with is best. 500 Mbogo brass is Hornady .416 Rigby 2.95" long blank basic cylindrical that only Peter Cardona seems to be able to get for necking down and headstamping. RotoZip tool does an excellent job on initial trimming of brass, great time and elbow-grease-saver. For example: If you want to trim off 0.300" of a too-long brass case, first cut 0.25" of it off with the RotoZip tool and then finish with precision trimmer. The RotoZip goes through brass like a hot knife through butter.  | |||
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Ron, Just re-looked at my notes of the various 49-10 thread posts. I noticed that your 338 LM commercial brass fire forming load resulted in an un-trimmed fire formed case length of 2.707"; a reduction of 0.010" in case length of new unfired commercial brass. As you're only upsizing 0.010" in bullet diameter from the 49-10 to your 500 Bat, shouldn't the fire formed un trimmed case still exceed 2.700" in length? I'd so that ought to be plenty long for the Bat as you're trimming under 2.70" in length. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Interesting... Sure glad I went with a modified Weibe' 4MJ standard depth bottom metal in my commercial FN Mauser based 49-10. Just looked at my notes and the modified 4MJ has a 3.615" internal magazine length. And it holds 3-down with sufficient magazine depth to thumb the 4th down sufficiently to ride up under the extractor. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, You are using a 3.615"-long 404 Jeffery box instead of the 3.501"-long 500 Jeffery box, by Wiebe, eh? Shall we measure and compare inside box widths and depths at front and rear of box too? I'd have to go look it up or measure again ... My box was supposed to be designed for 3 of the 500 Jeffery cartridges, but it is very tight for that! There is no M98 box in existence (Standard or Magnum) that is truly right, per "Mauser Box Cosine Rules," in width for the 500 Jeffery. The 500 Bat is an easier fit for three down in mine, enough room to partially load a fourth cartridge in my box too, to CRF into the chamber, under extractor control without the "Mauser finger pinch" on the side of the extractor. More than one way to skin a cat. Brass: With end of neck irregularities and after necking up from .500 to .510, I wanted to be able to form full length 2.700" brass after case mouth trimming for squaring and uniforming. The .338 LM factory brass blown out is more than long enough for the 2.657"/.500-cat, but just not reassuring for the 2.700"/.510-cat. It will work but not ideal. Also, that bugaboo of about 1 in every 100-200 cases having a neck split with even the best .338-necked brass when it is blown out to .500: Much happier I am to neck down cylindrical to .510 than to blow out .338 to .510, but yes, I could do it either way. | |||
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no.. mini chop saw with a "Tail stock" to set cut length opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Ron, The 4MJ has a trapezoid shaped box that allows 4-down with the 404 Jeff in a standard depth box. Just happens to hold 3-down with the 49-10 and according to Steve they stack and feed from the box much better than the 404s. I'll try to get time to pull it apart later this month and measure things up. If I don't get it done just take your calipers with you to the DSC, rifle will be there. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Those of us making do at the home garage work bench do very well with a RotoZip and a rubber padded vise. But Dremel has a nice saw too. Jim, That sure sounds like a nice box set up by Wiebe. You can only get so big at the top of the box and still have it fit inside of the standard M98 action. Good to go bigger below ... might be better than a 500 Jeffery box. Whatever works. Maybe I could use one of those on a "400 Bateleur" (.408/.338 Lapua Magnum) ... working my way down now ... ... I have this spare .408 Barrel if I do a .416 Kracken Tactical instead of a second .408 Cheyenne Tactical ... I better go sleep it off now, before I go blind.  | |||
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Yes it would work pretty well for a 400 Bateleur. Now you only need to standardize on case specifics and you'll have a new line of cartridges. Personally I don't believe they'd lose any usability by maintaining the 500XXX (49-10) Go and No-Go Gauges for all lesser diameter Bateleur cartridges. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, That is going to be a tough call. Standard .338 Lapua Magnum chamber necks up to .475-caliber just fine, with no "improvement" needed to the case. I HAD to improve it to get to .500-caliber of the 49-10, .492-bore/.500-groove. Bateleur's should be named by their bore diameter: .500 Bateleur: .510-caliber bullet, aka 12.9x69 Magnum/50-12 ... The 50-bore of 2012. .492 Bateleur: .500-caliber bullet, aka 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10 ... The 49-bore of 2010. .468 Bateleur: .475-caliber .450 Bateleur: .458-caliber bullet, aka 11.6x68 Magnum/45-03 ... The 45-bore of 2003 arrival. .415 Bateleur: .423-caliber .408 Bateleur: .416-caliber .404 Bateleur: .411-caliber .400 Bateleur: .408-caliber bullet, aka 10.4x69 Magnum/40-14 ... The proposed 40-bore for 2014. .388 Bateleur: .395-caliber bullet, aka "398 Lapua Magnum" for headstamp alteration ease, now 10.0x69 Magnum/39-06 ... The 39-bore of 2006: The first ever .395 Wildcat conceived by me. .368 Bateleur: .375-caliber bullet, aka 9.5x69 Magnum/37-03 ... The 37-bore of 2003, conceived independently, before I knew of German werke. .358 Bateleur: .366-caliber "9.3mm" .350 Bateleur: .358-caliber .330 Bateleur: .338-caliber .315 Bateleur: .323-caliber "8mm" .300 Bateleur: .308-caliber, aka 7.8x69 Magnum/30-13 ... A unique 30-bore I already have, just now re-named in 2013. Bullet diameter and throating are different from the ".300 Lapua Magnum." .277 Bateleur: .284-caliber "7mm" .270 Bateleur: .277-caliber .256 Bateleur: .264-caliber "6.5mm" .250 Bateleur: .257-caliber .237 Bateleur: .243-caliber "6mm" .219 Bateleur: .224-caliber .199 Bateleur: .204-caliber BB Bateleur: .177-caliber ... Have to verify this last one as to severity of over-bore and actual bore diameter. Already done by others as necked up .338 Lapua Magnum with no other changes, and their nomenclature: Proprietary Waffen Jung cartridge, the .375 Tornado aka "9.5x70 Magnum": .375-caliber Already done as necked down .338 Lapua Magnum with only change being 25-degree shoulder instead of 20-degree, to allow adequate neck length: Proprietary Lapua cartridge, the .300 Lapua Magnum: BUT it is for .309-caliber bullet, according to the 2nd Edition "Lapua Shooting and Reloading Manual" ...???  ???Therefore the .308/.338 Lapua Magnum cartridge called "300 Bateleur" for .308-caliber bullets is new and different? Just like the "400 Bateleur" for .408-caliber bullets.  I think I should just stick to .338 Lapua Magnum case body for everything of .475 and smaller caliber bullets. Case shoulder angle, neck lengths and brass neck diameters, and throating will need to be fine tuned, however. A huge task. The 500, 400, and 300 Bateleurs would be a great start at a switch-barrel rifle for any big game hunting uses, eh? 300, 400, 500 ... "Three, Four, and Five will keep you alive!" I also already have straight neck-up rifles for .458, .395, and .375 caliber bullets, bolded above. I am going to get to work on this fantasy line-up ... later ...  I just need to do the "400 Bateleur" to have this lineup complete: 500 Bateleur 492 Bateleur 450 Bateleur 400 Bateleur 388 Bateleur 368 Bateleur 330 Bateleur "Honorary Title" (The .338 Lapua Magnum aka 8.6x70 Magnum, the 33-bore of 1987, is father to all Bateleurs.) 300 Bateleur | |||
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Ron, I understand your rational regarding case dimensions. One thing you need to correct is for .423 caliber - US barrels use 0.008" difference which equate to a 0.415" bore. So it's a 415 Bateleur... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks for paying attention, Jim, I was just testing you. I will fix that for posterity. I was going by the over-size McGowen specs. They work, but may not be the best 404 barrel.  McGowen abberration on the "404" but they certainly make a .510-caliber "500" properly.  Twists Available: 1-10" (6 Groove) 1-12" (6 Groove) 1-15" (8 Groove) 1-20" (6 Groove) 1-24" (6 & 8 Groove) 1-32" (6 Groove) We do see .005", .006", .007", .008", .009",and even .010" groove to bore diameter differences in US barrels from other makers besides McGowen. That covers most small bores to big bores, but .008" does seem to be a "standard" on the medium to big bores. I like the .408-.400 barrel McGowen makes also. 1:13" twist, same specs as by Dan Lilja, and every other maker of whom I know. .408/400 is a well standardized barrel, unlike the "404." | |||
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Yep, smaller the caliber the closer the bore & groove dimensions - typically...at least for cartridges designed originally as smokeless. Through in legacy black powder and the early conversion cartridges from black powder to smokeless and it all goes whacko. But for big bore I don't believe 0.008" or 0.010" bore/groove diameter difference has any affect on accuracy or pressure. EXCEPT with bore-riding monometal bullets where shank diameter is larger than the barrel bore diameter which can raise pressure levels above safe - when the loading is developed using a barrel whose bore is =/> than the bullet' shank diameter. And historically the '404' barrels have been over the map primarily from smaller makers who seemed to just use whatever barrels they had with specs near Jeffery's specifications - which were somewhat weird themselves. Oh well, PAC NOR works for me... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, Right. Loved that about legacy BP to smokeless calibers going "whacko." Like the .395-caliber from the 1870's morphing into a .405-caliber bullet for Purdy by 1905. Whacko. We are now whistling by the graveyard. | |||
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