The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Choices Among the .458"Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
I've never owned a .458", but it's a nice calibre. The options in case capacity are intriguing: (* requires a magnum-length action) (first measurment is rim-size/case-head, "b" means "belted". The grains are listed according to the AmmoGuide algorithm in order to keep things relatively comparable. Those measurements tend to be slightly less than others.) (.532"b) 458Win - 87.6 gn. (.532") 458B&M - 92.5 gn. (.532"b) * 458 Lott - 98.1 gn. (.532") 458AccRel - 104.2 gn. (.582"b) 460 VanHorn - 111.2 gn. (.590") * 450 Rigby - 123.9 gn. (.582") * 450 Dakota - 127.1 gn. (.582"b) * 460 Weatherby - 128.5 gn. I think that today I would probably lean to the 458AccRel. Standard length actions and no belt appeal to me, though I would be happy with a belted cartridge if it were commercially available. Maybe Ruger will undertake such a project after they are happy and stabilized with the results of the 375Ruger and 416Ruger. I would really prefer a full "Rigby case head" in a standard length 2.5"-2.65" case. The VanHorn shows that such a wildcat would be about 111+ gn. That would be enough to get the job done at about 6000+ ftlbs. Super magnums, like a 50-BMG necked down to .458" sound like a little too much for me, so I've not listed them. I think that 7000ftlbs is a reasonable comfort limit for shooters. But those are just my "d'ruthers." ("I'd rather ...") +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | ||
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| One of Us |
For a "reasonable" choice, the Lott would seem to be the way to go. You can use 458 WM or Lott ammunition, and a full-house Lott round should give you as much power as you'd need. Bigger rounds with higher velocity extend the range, but there are better calibers for that purpose. The bigger rounds also give you the ability to use the 550 and 600gr bullets in the 458, but if you need those, you might want to move up to a 50 caliber. Recoil is obviously an issue as you move up the 458 ladder. | |||
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| One of Us |
I went with the .460 Weatherby Magnum it can be down loaded if needed. The recoil isn't that bad, with a Accumark muzzle break. I removed my break and shot it off hand and the recoil was manageable. .458 Lott or .458 Win Mag (better odds of finding ammo) would be my second choice. Best of Luck | |||
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| One of Us |
I'm not sure if Jeffeosso has seen this thread, but it would be nice to know about the freebore on the .458 AccRel. Presumably, the reamer is with McGowan Barrels? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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One of Us |
Between the .458 Lott and the .450 Rigby, the other cartridges on the list are superfluous. Mike | |||
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Moderator |
I will have to check my drawings .. I know it ain't short I think it's my most practical round and there a good number of them out there .. on at least 5 Continents as well We are working on the 476 accrel which is a 500 accrel with shorter free bore and .475 bullets #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, the 458 AccRel is "between them," literally, as would be a short case Rigby. Something that has more capacity than a 458Lott and fits in a standard action rifle (like a 338WM or 7mRM) would be a great DG rifle. On the freebore of the 458AccRel:
OK, but "long" is a relative thing. 0.23" might be called long, but it would only be 1/2 calibre, a significant but relatively modest freebore. But one inch would be excessively long in my book. The easy part with reamers is that the freebore can be removed from a reamer and then any who want extra freebore can add that as a separate operation. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| one of us |
I would choose the 458accrel.It has slightly more case volume than the lott-that would decrease pressure a bit and make for a better 458.I have not seen how it feeds but it if cycles and feeds better than the lott then it is good. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeff, that's an interesting design. I see on AmmoGuide that it is the Rigby casehead, which is a distinct benefit for the .470/.475". The only downside on the cartridge is the relative paucity of bullets compared to the .458 and the occasional poor fit of bullet diameter to bore apparently out of a desire to keep pressures down for the common double rifles in "470NE". Anyway, as you apparently think that there is room for a short-RUM-based 470 and a short-Rigby-based 470 ("476"), there might even be a niche for a short-Rigby-based 458. Maybe you could call it the 450AccRel to hint its relationship to a Rigby-based case. You should be able to get 115 grain capacity (AmmoGuide algorithm) even with a few more thousands of taper at a .569" shoulder. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
I would ask the gentlemen who support the big boomers, what is the upside of a quality 500 gr solid over 2200 FPS? I believe at 2200 FPS it will shoot through about anything. This thing about pressure always crops up. I have a lott and a WM. The lott will push that 500 gr @2300FPS with AA2520 and the Win will push it 2200FPS with AA 2230 @ 100F with no pressure issues. I know, I have the chrono and the August Texas heat to prove it. Most hunt in the winter in Africa and you will not typically see 100F. The really big guns require more weight to handle and who wants to carry one all day long? I hear elephant hunts cover a lot of miles. No one around you will like your muzzle brake-Rest assured! I have no questions for someone who just wants to own one. To each their own. I really like my Browning Safari grade in 458WM. Really easy to handle, reliable and can push a 450 swift at 2300FPS and a 500gr @2200 if I like, I typically push them at 2150. I guess I tend towards practicality. I have never personally noticed any issue with a belted cartridge…. EZ | |||
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| One of Us |
.458 Lott and never look back! It is a killing machine! | |||
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one of us |
I agree, if you have a 458 Lott you should never look back because you will find that with equal bullets and pressure the standard 458 Win is only 100fps behind you  And any good little league pitcher can throw a 500 gr bullet 100fps Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, I suppose that I like more than 2150fps. The 400 grain GSC-HV is appealing at 2700fps. But it needs a little more capacity than the Lott for that 2700fps. The 458Win would only produce 2400 with that bullet. And I would rather carry a lighter, non-magnum-action rifle all day long. For a couple of shots, one doesn't remember hunting recoil. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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One of Us |
Just to be different, and for no other reason than Lott went and took Watts' design, made minor changes and named it after himself, I'd look at the 450 Ackley (think of it as a 458 Lott AI), which gives a stonking 50 f/s more speed  , or the 450 Watts.Both of these accept the 458 Lott and 458 Win. -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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Thank you, Bren. What follows does not reflect in any way on your good information. I went and looked at the "450 Ackley" (101.9 grain capacity in AmmoGuide) and became worried after finding the following: "400 IMR-3031 100.0 2802 6976 24.0 Load submitted by 'cwhuntsalot'. This load was developed using Barnes semi-pointed, jacketed, soft-point, flat-based bullets. In terms of power, the developer considers this a heavy load." When a load is 1000 ftlbs. over all published loads I get suspicious that my best interests and truth claims are in jeopardy or that something is being hidden---like unsafe pressures or freak chronograph readings. And to repeat, Bren is not connected with that irresponsible listing in any way. His "50fps" is reasonable. Yes, it appears that the 458Lott could be straightened out and expanded a wee bit--like 3 1/2 grains and maybe 25, max 50, fps. However, if I want a 7000ftlb load, or any easily attained over-6000ftlb. load, I will look to a cartridge with more capacity than 102 grains in .458". I think that 110-125 grain capacity would be desired, and the question becomes how to package that and how to carry it. Can a Ruger Hawkeye do this? How? When? The 400grain/2700fps mentioned above for larger capacity rounds is only 6500ftlbs. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Just to add to what Tanzan said - I was being ironic when I said that the increase was really worth anything - as Tanzan and I said, maybe 50 f/s. Sometimes these things can be difficult to tell over the interwebs. -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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| One of Us |
So what does the 450 Rigby offer: Can be loaded with 500 gr. bullets reliably from 2200-2500 fps (probably more if you feel the need) without resorting to alchemy. Works great with many powders Relatively low chamber pressures. Readily available components. Is available in over the counter CRF rifles . Is very cool  | |||
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| Moderator |
ah, yes, right here on the drawings... 0.8 freebore and throat, combined. on all of them, which has worked perfectly with every known bullet shot  #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks. some fast math, assuming a .004" land and 1.5degree leade/throat, gives about .65" freebore and .15" leade, if I've interpreted the comments correctly. That is approximately 1.4 calibre of freebore. It is a fairly long freebore back in the days when it was popular to range from .5 calibre all the way to double calibre and sometimes beyond. Those were copper-jacketed-bullet days. So have people been shooting brass bullets, too, with the long freebore? 1.4 calibre freebore would normally have been stable, but we had an issue with 2.5 calibre freebore in brass about three years ago. If a .590" casehead "450 AccRel" is developed with a 2.6" case, I would vote for a 1/2 calibre freebore, or about 0.229" freebore plus another 0.110" to 0.150" leade (for about a 2--1.5 degree leade into the lands). I don't know if there is any practical difference between 1.5 and 2.5 degrees. Brass has become more popular in these days of monometal bullets. However, I like the copper driving bands of GSC and Northfolk, and have also had good success with the grooves of copper TSX and TTSX bullets. Copper should certainly handle the freebore and leade. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Looking at SAAMI diagrams was enlightening. Here are the freebore calculations for some of the major cartridges: 460 Weath -- .756" freebore, plus 1deg30min angle to the lands 416 Weath -- .239" freebore, + ... 378 Weath -- .756" freebore, + ... 338/378We -- .373" freebore, + ... 340 Weath -- .373" freebore, + ... 300 Weath -- .361" freebore, + ... 257 Weath -- .378" freebore, + ... 458 Lott --- .178" freebore, + ... 458 Win ---- .646" freebore, sort of ... (actually the 458 Win is strange because it starts off with a .469" diameter and then very slowly [0deg 29'30"] continues to .450" lands after a whopping 1.115"[!], starting to engrave a bullet at around .646") With that amount of slop, it's no wonder that a 458Win can be successfully fired in a 458 Lott, maybe with little loss of accuracy. Anyway, the 458Lott and 416 Weatherby appear to have reasonably conservative freebore lengths. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| one of us |
To answer the question I'd buy a Lott if I was in the market for a new 458. As other have said you really don't need anything else but gun nuts will be gun nuts so............ Personally Lon Paul is redoing my old Mark X 458 WM and I fully expect it to hammer anything I point it at. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| Moderator |
416 - (this isn't being defensive) The winmag and the waetherby at about the same as mine - the weatherby longer and the winmag as the guide ... and here's why. if someone has a long action they COULD load long, and zero people have ever complained on the throat of the winmag. I don't like short throats in hunting rifles -- think taylor forcing cone and, that if a bulelt gets banged about in the mag, its going to leave at higher pressure than nominal - my 470 shoots about 3/4 MOA, my 416 better, and my 458 shoots about MOA, with everything except 400gr woodleighs - but few things shoot those great ... even barnes tsx and XLCs shoot VERY well --- and a longer throat, in non-banded cooper bullets, keeps pressure spikes down... all in all a good idea #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey, Jeffe, I would happily hunt with a 2/3" or 3/4" freebore and they should work great. At the moment I'm still waiting for any brass bullet to be developed that has a BC that would fit 300-yard hunting. GSC and TTSX have more appropriate big bore BC's. However, for a vote, I have a gut feeling that 1/4" freebore would be more accurate, so would vote "shorter/modern." I like accuracy, in order to thread between branches. Obviously, a .458" or .476" is not a 400-500+ yard long range affair. Africa is typically under 200 yards, under 100 for buffalo, and out to 300 for zebra and eland. But you never know, maybe a 2700fps 400gn projectile would work on elk, too, for people in the US? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
If a Standard Action is what you want I would look hard a the 458 African as described in Pierre van der Walt's book African Dangerous Game Cartridges. OAL 3.40 480grn bullet 2300fps | |||
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One of Us |
I sold both my 458Lott rifles and had a 458B&M built on a Winchester WSM action. Lighter, shorter, more maneuverable all played into my decision. I've killed Elephant with both calibers and they were DRT. Beau killed Lion, Leopard, Hippo and Croc with his 458B&M last year - all one shot kills. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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| One of Us |
This got me thinking. I wonder if some of the velocity problems in the early days were caused by excessive freebore length and width? If the velocity was set by a "pre-SAAMI" tight chamber, then rifles using the s.l..o...w throat would lose the kind of velocity that "freebore" advocates noted back in the day of freebore wildcatting. Just like double-calibre freebore could get a handloader an extra couple of hundred fps, factory ammo in a long freebore could lose a couple of hundred fps. (How so? Measure a 280 powder load and put it in a 7mRM and watch the velocity drop from the 280 level. Ditto for a 30-06 load put in a 300WM. Freebore can be like adding a 1/4" or 1/2" of caselength.) Just a thought on history. It is irrelevant to a 458AccR or 450AccR because wildcats are handloads by definition. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| Moderator |
sure.. its a great round, and i didn't know it existed until after i had done mine... 458 accrel - 458 african cheap RUM brass - $$$ 404 brass standard casehead - 404 case head headstamped brass - no 3.35 - no action lengthing - 3.4 - REQUIRES action lengthening hornady dies - custom dies -- 416 - Nope.. the problem has been, and always will be, the powders selected - 760 and 748 arent great powders when compressed, as they don't burn as well - many stories of bullets forced out by powder and/or unburnt powder falling out However, that freebore likely saved some rifles/injuries/lives when those old loads burned then kaboomed once the clump got hot and finally burned, or the bullets would then be jammed... these things make GREAT "benchrest big bores" -- i am happy with the design #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Moderator |
Think wylde (223/5.56) or taylor throated ? #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes. Agreed. I was aware of the powder problem. My thoughts were about the freebore contributing to low velocity by ammo makers who might assume no freebore. In any case, I think they needed something like IMR3031/H322/H4895 instead of the Win ball 748. Bottom line, any design with a freebore like 458Win or 460Weatherby is good to go. (But if I design a 450-shortRigby I'd probably use 0.25" freebore, maybe a slow-angle leade going another 0.3" to reach full lands.) But that is just me, certainly nothing against a .8 freebore+leade. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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one of us |
I have two .450 ackleys and both deliver a honest 2400 fps with a 500 gr bullet with zero pressure signs. It was once thought that this was a magic velocity and billet weight combination for whacking Buff and I can tell you I've had some pretty dramatic kills with it. It's a amazingly easy cartridge to make feed and is a natural for a pre-64 Win. I've built many different ackley based guns and all were significantly more accurate than their non ackley counterparts. I like the Parralel neck of the ackley and the fact that .375 H&H cases can be used for fire forming. Remember not so long ago even Lott cases were not commercially available. I think the 450 watts is an even better cartridge but I never had a reamer for it. The.450 Ackley is definitely going the way of the dodo given the popularity of the Lott and the head stamp issues but it will definitely get the job done! Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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One of Us |
Buy a used 458 Mag by Whitworth and be done with it! They are cheap. I went thru all the mind bending gymnastics you did and was planning to convert the Whitworth to a Lott, but the required a new bottom metal and new stock, especially to get an extra round. I guess I could have just gone a new bottom metal, but it still would have cost $$$ for the metal and rechambering. If you must have something bigger, buy a Lott then, either used a Ruger RSM or a new/used CZ550. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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| One of Us |
If going with a heavy rifle, the Lott will rechamber and clean up to a 450Rigby and the bolt/extractor can be opened up easily. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| Moderator |
or buy the whiteworth, rechamber for 458 AR, and then have better than lott ballistics, no new bottom metal needed #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
The simplest, cheapest conversion for a 'short rifle' combo. The same would be true of a 7mmRM//300Mag//338//375Ruger donor. A new barrel and chambering in 458AccRel would give the optimum 458 functionality in a standard hunting rifle. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
there are times when it is difficult to argue with Jeffe's creations. This is ONE of them. Or, is it three...? | |||
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| One of Us |
I load my .450 Rigby to 2200 fps and it is a one-holer. Feeds well without a hick-up and is standard for my Enfield action. | |||
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One of Us |
I enjoy using a custom M98 in 458Win Mag using 480grn Woodleigh bullets for the same ballistic results as the classic 450NE. Should you be able to get the 458LOTT to work with the M98 then that might be a little more versitle yet still within the shorter action. | |||
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| One of Us |
If you are doing a rifle to hunt in your own back yard then pick whatever caliber tickles your fancy. If you intend to use it overseas, in today's world with the issues with airlines, the TSA and luggage, I would sure think hard about calibers where you stand a reasonable chance of finding ammunition where you may be traveling versus wildcats. But I am probably being too pragmatic. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
proper headstamp can also make your choice easier. | |||
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| Moderator |
http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...-reloading-box-of-20 #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Choices Among the .458"
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